harmonichonda Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 (edited) Rerolled juggernaut recently and have done a week in operations before 1.2, and now one after 1.2. My prior build was the 14/27/0 with accuracy since I was fresh 50. This build in centurion, some champion and a few tionese pieces carried me through solo tanking EV regular + KP regular. Upgraded items during the week of 1.2's release on Thursday led me to just over 20k hp, 23% defense, 41% shield, 37% absorb and 282 power using rakata fortitude stimulant. Not bad really. On Thursday afternoon I respeced to the heavy immortal build and for the first time even since my jedi guardian tanking days used the 4 piece bonus and was able to gather my own data on how often it and revenge were proccing. I like the added absorb every 10 seconds, not bad. Thursday 1.2 release I moved to the 31/8/2 build and well even with the stupendous stats I didn't like it in hardmodes. I ran most of the hard flashpoints constantly perturbed by my inability to hold threat even on boss fights against my marauder. So I spent some tiem with calculator, dummies, and my excel spreadsheeting and came up with this new build: 21/7/13 What I lose with this is 4% internal dmg, a 2nd high threat modifier on a 15 second cooldown, 4 % shield from talent and 5 seconds of my big tanking cooldown. What I gain - free force scream after a heavy hitter in obliterate, and some nice dmg buffs to our rage dump in vicious slash. With this build and in full columi set for tonight and yesterday evening's operations I was at 23% defense, 37% shield, 36% absorb, 20,900 hp with rakata fortitude stimulant. Raid group cleared HM EV + KP mind you in our 2nd weekend raiding and I was main tank for each boss. My healer mostly still wears centurion pvp gear since she hates pvping and didnt luck out with much loot until KP hard run last night. She noticed no difference at all in healing. THe big issue for juggies it seems: how did threat work with your hybrid build and without crushing blows new threat gen? Threat was much easier to manage even on aoe pulls where I have a small chance to reduce smash's cost and have several free force screams that crit pretty hard and often. Ravage and vicious slash have become competitors now for my #1 and #2 dmging attacks on boss fights followed by obliterate and force scream both around same percentages. --- In explosive conflict still no rakata pieces yet, we managed to learn and take down first two and will be on the latter two Monday evening before reset. Threat is still a constant looming thing to worry about, but I am much more comfy with tanking in this strange build for operations. --- For hard mode flashpoints, threat is LOADS BETTER on aoe pulls. I now only lose threat on a strong on the weird pulls where theres just too many mobs to hold em all by tabbing through. And even then I can do the spiffy choke immortal talent and get a backhand off on a target running off no problem. TPS from mox reports me capping at 2058 in this build. My dps for the explosive conflict with 96% accuracy because of mod priorities right now puts me between 400-600 on each fight which aint that great, but it holds aggro. I do not use smash like I used to in the vengeance tanking hybrid builds since it aint free. --- THe biggest issue that worried me taking this in for our undergeared operations was if my rage pool would be okay. For that reason I put one points here and there for chances to build some rage. IE -- revenge talent for aoe pulls, backhand reduced by 1 in immortal, retaliation 2 pts, 1 pt into building 2 rage when stunned which is nearly every minute now. I spam vicious slash when my heavy hitters are still on cooldown and dump an entire rage pool easily 3 times every 2 minutes in a boss encounter. -- I am very comfortable with this build, more happy than any prior hybrid build and still even more than immortal. I can't explain why, maybe its just my playstyle, but I love having a rage dump that is buffed up from my spec, and a feww ability like I had with smash in the old hybrid tanking build and now it follows on CD rotation with obliterate. I maintain the utility of the slight 4 piece bonus so another added win, and get backhand stun+high threat creator. Check it out and feel free to ask questions as I'm sure many others might have even better priorities in their rotation than I do. Edited April 16, 2012 by harmonichonda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zayse Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 (edited) How long did you try the full Immortal spec? The playstyle is COMPLETELY different than the old hybrid build, so I remember having to reinvent the way I was using rage etc. before seeing results Edited April 16, 2012 by Zayse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorizdin Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 If you're having trouble holding aggro then I'd suspect you're not using taunt to build threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenegdo Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 maybe i'm confused but I don't really see talent wise where you are getting this greatly imporved AoE threat. You traded Crushing Blow for Obliterate, which nets you a free force scream. Also your ravage and vicious slash do a bit more dmg. However, I don't see anything about threat that your standard 31/8/2 didn't have. To be honest, it looks like you traded 4% shield, 4% internal for a buffed vicious slash and ravage. Obliterate is really a wash with crushing blow. They do very similar damage and a 31 point immortal spec is already getting a lot of free force screams from Revenge and overall extra rage from Sweeping Fury. Thats really it. Those 13 points in Rage Tree may buff your Ravage and Viciuos Slash dmg a bit, but I don't see anything about AoE Threat or Survivability. Honestly, unless I'm missing something, I'm really not seeing any real gain for this build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmonichonda Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 Can only taunt every 15 seconds so that doesnt do much for you on aoe pulls with marauders that do their proper damage 4% shield chance aint that big of a deal when I already have 36% from mods and not even in rakata pieces for more endurance yet. 4% internal resistance for ops tanking is next to useless. I really didn't think this spec would work as well as it does. But, results are results. My healers are still even less geared than my new juggernaut but we're doing fine with stuff. Crushing blow's threat if you run mox parser will show it aint working. I capped at 2081 tps with the 31 point in immortal. Now am averaging 2200 all over the place and have more rage available for vicious slash dumps. Win win situation to me will see how it works in hard mode ec this lockout period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmonichonda Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 How long did you try the full Immortal spec? The playstyle is COMPLETELY different than the old hybrid build, so I remember having to reinvent the way I was using rage etc. before seeing results Totally could be this -- what did you change around? I always found myself having to save up rage to have enough to hit crushing blow 4 rage points when it was almost off CD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zayse Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 In what way do you have more focus? You only half of revenge and no Sweeping fury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorizdin Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Can only taunt every 15 seconds so that doesnt do much for you on aoe pulls with marauders that do their proper damage There is no way in hell you're losing threat if you're taunting as part of your rotation to Maras or anyone else. Boss threat, as the game is constructed today, is so trivially managed that its a complete non-issue for any tank unless you have someone else in the Ops group taunting when they shouldn't be. 4% shield chance aint that big of a deal when I already have 36% from mods and not even in rakata pieces for more endurance yet. 4% internal resistance for ops tanking is next to useless. I really didn't think this spec would work as well as it does. But, results are results. My healers are still even less geared than my new juggernaut but we're doing fine with stuff. Crushing blow's threat if you run mox parser will show it aint working. I capped at 2081 tps with the 31 point in immortal. Now am averaging 2200 all over the place and have more rage available for vicious slash dumps. Win win situation to me will see how it works in hard mode ec this lockout period. TPS is meaningless in this game. Look at your threat from Taunt/Threatening Scream over the course of a boss fight and together those will be your largest source of threat by more than a factor of 10. I've held aggro as part of an experiment with Taunt, Threatening Scream, and Intercede alone for 10 minutes and I have no doubt I could do so indefinitely. Having said that your TPS is undoubtedly better because your DPS is better and that does have value in SWTOR so if you're as durable as a deep Immortal tank and you're putting out more damage that would be interesting to hear. I ran the old 14/27 hybrid with success prior to 1.2 but at the moment I am in a vanilla 31/7/3 so I am looking for options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmonichonda Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 I have no issue with boss threat, was only aoe threat that has pissed me off This lets me tab a free force scream to build threat on subsidiary mobs, works well with my play style -- I have more rage because I get cc'd alot so theres free regen with it that you could pick up in heavy immortal but for some reason I was always rage starved. I really do feel as durable in the new ops with this build, can't explain it. But no tank should be running an intercede reliant build in this new ops that is a joke. Just on the first 2 encounters turning the cleave into anyone will kill them. So half the perk from that build is gone. 4% internal resistance on a random dot from the first handler's drouks in explosive conflict vs a massive dps increase to help with enrage timers is spiffy. And yes we have 2 assassins who run in tank presence for dps and off tank and their pvp, but I lose threat if I do at all in the first few seconds while I am spooling up. I taunt off cooldown sure but I do not use it to establish a pull that seems dumb since if I taunt 8 seconds into the fight I get whomever pulled or is about to, and then double it into my threat. As I say, we've cleared both old ops in pvp/tionese heavy gear on hard difficulty. And will be clearing EC tonight, so our gear for this group is very much sub par what I'm sure many have. All I can do is report my results, and this spec in my current gear is beating enrage timers and holding threat as well as assassins on aoe pulls and super well on boss encounters. Try it out. The other thing to note is crushing blow is 4 rage whereas obliterate will be only be 3 -- not a big difference but it means every 15 seconds my free scream mixed with the intant channel effect on choke keeps me at full rage constantly and I can waste 4 vicious slash 2-3 times per minute for some pretty nice hits frankly. I am also enthused to report this in pvp with vindicator gear performs super well so at this time I can tank hm and presumably NiM ops and tank in warzones with respectable dmg in same spec again much like the old 14/27 build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmonichonda Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 Also of interest, I only have 1 point in revenge, but since scream is free, the revenge buff stacks up 3 times while casting scream and can be saved for smash. Noticed that while doing dailies today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zayse Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101RrGzudMdfzZcMRZ0M.1 Theres no way your build would generate more rage than this build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmonichonda Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 ^ thats the one I used It does, I never have to wait on rage for anything and dump vicious slash very frequently 3-4 times back to back We have hard data meters I'll start recording my data if other juggies will as well; or is this going to be another immortal heavy vs hybrid whimsical back and forth because hybrids shouldnt be possible discussion... Those are always fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zayse Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 No, I certainly think it's interesting to say the least. Could you throw up numbers as to where Obliterate and Vicious Slash end up in relation to Crushing Blow? I'm more interested in the damage difference than how much damage you do. I suppose I could respec myself and do it... Anyway as it stands, I have a hard time seeing the damage increase Immortal spec: Retaliation > Sundering Assault > Force Scream > Crushing Blow > Vicious Slash/Assault Spam Your build: Retaliation > Sundering Assault > Force Scream > Obliterate > Vicious Slash/Assault Spam With backhand, Force choke, and in your build Ravage, fit in somewhere. Obliterate does less damage than Crushing blow, and doesn't have the threat modifier. Vicious Slash does more damage in your build, but can't be spammed quite as much what with less rage generation. So it really comes down to how much that 6% is adding to Obliterate and Vicious Slash and how you use Ravage (and also how Ravager works out). These are things I wish to know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmonichonda Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 I seriously find vicious slash being a big dump back to back 3+ times very frequently with ravage and my combo obliterate+scream on CD On my mox parse last night vicious was actually my #1 ability right above ravage then obliterate. As somebody stated earlier the threat is a non point with boss fights since we have a taunt every 15 seconds that takes existing aggro and adds it to our own. I'll keep combat log on for hard modes on this lockout period upcoming week. I might even have some rakata pieces by the end of the week if I'm lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zayse Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 (edited) I seriously find vicious slash being a big dump back to back 3+ times very frequently with ravage and my combo obliterate+scream on CD On my mox parse last night vicious was actually my #1 ability right above ravage then obliterate. As somebody stated earlier the threat is a non point with boss fights since we have a taunt every 15 seconds that takes existing aggro and adds it to our own. I'll keep combat log on for hard modes on this lockout period upcoming week. I might even have some rakata pieces by the end of the week if I'm lucky. Please post a rotation so I can see what you are doing then Edited April 16, 2012 by Zayse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorizdin Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 On my mox parse last night vicious was actually my #1 ability right above ravage then obliterate. Mox is really good for looking at the stats right now, but we weren't happy with its after the fact reports. Here are my personal logs from part of our last KP/EV HM run. http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/93e2bc17-8f9b-4ac2-81aa-bd652fddc78e#d=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmonichonda Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 (edited) Saber throw, charge gives half bar rage, free scream Retaliation + sunder + choke + Ravage back up to half rage if not more Taunt + Obliterate + scream and opener complete Regular Rotation after wards gets this priority Retaliaton // Ravage // Taunt (I taunt when out of rage or save if on tank swap fight and replace with aoe for added threat) Regular rotation after priority cd uses: Sunder, obliterate, scream, vicious 3-4x Revenge at most has proc'd 11 times in a boss fight in this build with 4 min enrage timer but doesnt get used by my scream as it seems the game overwrites scream using it since it's free every time it's off it 12sec cd. I don't really follow any kind of rotation for an entire fight in this game since it is a straight up priority system, but do play with it and you'll find yourself with full rage bars with your big use abilities already on cd. I've even moved the 6 rage build button do my shift+d modifier since I hardly use it outside of trash pulls to keep spamming my frontal cleave. -- This is the 31/x/x build in a few columi pieces but mostly pvp gear and my proud tionese belt Here is from pvp gear tanking in foundry-Revan on whatever date the parse says from earlier this week after i hit 50 parse location Dmg done: ~88k DPS: 438.5 Healed: ~12k Average TPS: 1,513.7 Misses: 7 (Parries) Sonic barrier shield procd: 18 times DMG done to Snake doc: ~77k Boss Parried attack at me 22 times Edited April 16, 2012 by harmonichonda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmonichonda Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 (edited) currently uploading ec's ops parse will skim through and try to find the kill attempts Hmm well combatlog didnt separate from ec to dailies to some hard modes so a lot of attempts with positioning in here and other stuff if somebody knows the key in the log to find start and stop combat let me know and i'll be more precise: combat 2 for this copy shows kill shot with handler and his buddies in Denova ops: Combat 2 click then go down to snakedoc dmg out and incoming dmg For those unfamiliar with fight theres easily 10 seconds of downtime between every 10% of the tank swap while repositioning and making healers happy, this was with my testing hybrid spec build: Total dmg done: ~147k dmg Avg dps: ~500 avg tps: ~2900 with 96% accuracy shows I never missed which is RNG being generous Bosses parried me 20 times Combat abilities usage: sunder used 74 times vicious slash used 52 times -- yea holy f u d ge large amount Ravage 49 times obliterate 30 force scream 24 -- might have missed some while toth hopping and swapping looks like sonic barrier proc'd 24 times I taunted 18 times retaliation only 14 times -- so thats something I could do more of looks like but with amount of stuns and fast combat might have been all I could get off dunno Edited April 16, 2012 by harmonichonda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmonichonda Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 I agree mox running on .net crashes many times when syncing 7 others and especially often with 15 others Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmonichonda Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 Mox is really good for looking at the stats right now, but we weren't happy with its after the fact reports. Here are my personal logs from part of our last KP/EV HM run. http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/93e2bc17-8f9b-4ac2-81aa-bd652fddc78e#d=0 I like how robot breaks it down, will use them from now on over the other free app site, thanks What I am seeing on your SOa attempt, granted 1.5 minute downtime while hopping down gives you roughly 500 seconds of activity time vs my ~ 200 seconds fight after down times activity in the druok fight in Denova. Your crushing blow did near 14k dmg over the fight avg 1500 per hit used 9 times on a soa fight which seems kinda low, but thats the data I have from you. In a fight easily half as short, my obliterate was used 30 times. I'm assuming you may have same issue I had every other time I wanted to use crushing blow for its 4 rage was you had just used it on something else and had to sunder to rage enough to hit it. I just dont ever have a rage problem in this build. And that I can use obliterate 3x more than you in half the time seems odd but I'm assuming thats just how you prioritize things. Another comparison we can do here: can also see significant more from my build on sunder and tps from ravage. You only beat me with crushing blow for tps which seems to not be used off cd in your parse-- againt taht could just be your preference. Granted these are two different fights..but on Soa I just stand there and hop down for phase shifts or out to absorb a ball so really should have max dmg on that fight and it just seems from my druok encounter vs soa hard is that I am really doing much more with this build than the traditional 31 heavy build. Discuss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmonichonda Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 (edited) Mkay loaded onto robot site: here is kill attempt breakdown looks more precise than the other app I was using: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/10bd4529-8671-4975-abc8-4fb8cb74ea4e#d=0,f=10 Link: Explosive Conflict Toth and Friends There you can see how infrequently I'm really having to build rage through attack and sunder, and frankly looking at it I still have a LOT I can do in a more stationary fight to improve even further. Edited April 16, 2012 by harmonichonda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmonichonda Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 (edited) Here is analysis of firebrand/stormcaller tank fight I was tank on stormcaller so I had much downtime while kiting lightning and moving the double attack onto 2 dps so I wouldnt get hit with it. Results speak for themselves to me looks like. And likesay our guild's mostly in pvp gear since all fresh 50s within last lockout period, some 2 lockouts. So this is by no means optimal gear for this place. Firebrand/Stormcaller Would be interested in some other very undergeared tank posts with this fight from either tank position for the opposing tanks. Firebrand would have much more dmg done as he also fights ads so would be a more accurate picture if some juggy were tanking that side of the fight with combat parser log. Edited April 16, 2012 by harmonichonda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordofdamornin Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 I'm curious as to what your Crit chance is, raid buffed - I'm guessing 32-35%? Riôt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harmonichonda Posted April 17, 2012 Author Share Posted April 17, 2012 Let me check... I have fort stim, warrior buff, and bounty hunter buff in this screenshot: Melee Force: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordofdamornin Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 I apologize, I read something wrong, so my question is no longer valid. Thanks for answering it, though. Riôt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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