What's the Point of Having Vindicator/DPS PVE Gear?

[MirageReaper]

The Juggernaut for DPS sucks compared to other classes in HM Ops. DPS PVE build Juggernauts is often more of an liability than a asset especially if the boss has AOE damage that can hit everyone in melee range which makes it harder on the healer. Every time when my guild do HM Ops, they would always take a Marauder over a Juggernaut for melee DPS and unless they need a tank (which is never because they only ever need 2). So pretty much all of the Juggernauts who are fully geared in Columni Vindicator gear would always be benched in HM Ops and even those looking for a group don't want anything to do with them if they're not a tank. I don't know what's with all the dislike of not wanting to take one along even if they are fully geared. I'm guessing Juggernauts just don't have the DPS numbers the help the group beat the bosses' enrage timers compared to all the other classes. So what's the point of even using your commendations and unassembled armor pickups for Vindicator gear when no one will ever bother bring you along for as a DPS team member?

[Vid-szhite]

The Juggernaut for DPS sucks compared to other classes in HM Ops.

 

Nope.

 

/thread.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[MirageReaper]

It's nice to see that you disagree, but it ain't going to help fix the "Conventional Wisdom" mindset of Juggernaut being top 3 worst DPS class next to Operatives and Powertechs.

[Vid-szhite]

It's nice to see that you disagree, but it ain't going to help fix the "Conventional Wisdom" mindset of Juggernaut being top 3 worst DPS class next to Operatives and Powertechs.

 

Operatives and Powertechs parse dead even with Marauders, even after the nerfs. The "conventional wisdom" is based on nothing but gut feeling, e.g. because Operatives have high burst and a weird rotation, they must have terrible Sustained (proven false, Concealment does higher DPS than Lethality even after the nerfs, 1400-1500 just like Marauders), and Powertech has a Tank spec, therefore there must be a hybrid tax which makes it suck at damage (which is based on the early years of WoW - SWTOR has no hybrid tax, and even WoW removed its own hybrid tax).

 

If your guild can be that choosy, I'm sure they bring 2 Marauders for Bloodthirst and then don't bring ANY other melee DPS. It's not a matter of Juggernaut being gimped in DPS, it's a matter of Marauder being the only class with Bloodthirst (which boosts the entire party's healing and DPS) and Ranged DPS being preferred because of how many bosses are very bad for melee (e.g. the entirety of KP). Juggernauts might individually put out even numbers with Marauders, but Juggernauts can't boost their party's DPS and healing.

 

If Marauders didn't have bloodthirst, Marauders would be benched too. Let's be real, though, even Bloodthirst only lasts 15 seconds and is on a 5 minute cooldown, which is longer than the Enrage timer on most bosses, so how useful is it, really? Bring the player, not the class. Your guild is foolish. End of thread.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[MirageReaper]

And the only thing Juggernaut brings to the table is a constant stack of 20% armor reduction to boss allowing the party to do more damage to boss. So do other classes like the Mercenaries' Tracer missiles which can be fired from 30 meters away which is a relatively safe distance. Only downside of that is it costs heat.

 

Also my guild choose Marauders because they think they can put out the most number of damage out of all the classes thanks to a raid linked parser and as you said also Bloodthirst is icing on the cake. They would bring 3 Marauders and each take turns popping them when the boss is vulnerable.

[Vid-szhite]

And the only thing Juggernaut brings to the table is a constant stack of 20% armor reduction to boss allowing the party to do more damage to boss. So do other classes like the Mercenaries' Tracer missiles which can be fired from 30 meters away which is a relatively safe distance. Only downside of that is it costs heat.

 

Also my guild choose Marauders because they think they can put out the most number of damage out of all the classes thanks to a raid linked parser and as you said also Bloodthirst is icing on the cake. They would bring 3 Marauders and each take turns popping them when the boss is vulnerable.

 

If this is the case then it's not a case of Juggernauts being weak, is it? It's a case of Marauder being Overpowered. It may not even be true, as a matter of fact, but if your guild isn't willing to give anyone else the time of day, they'll never figure that out.

 

Unfortunately, since armor debuffs don't stack from the same class anymore, there's no reason to bring a Jugg for the armor debuff if you already have a Jugg tank, but if you don't, the armor debuff is probably far more substantial than Bloodthirst, because it will last the entire fight and multiplies the effect of other armor debuffs. This means, say, if you had an Assassin main tank, and a Powertech offtank, it's a good idea to bring a Jugg DPS over one of your Marauders. Juggernauts honestly put out very similar DPS and also have Intercede, allowing a Juggernaut to leap out of melee range in the blink of an eye (if this is needed), then jump right back in. An example of where this is useful is the first boss of EV, and Gharj.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[Vid-szhite]

I'll also throw this out there: how the hell does your guild manage to finish KP with only 1 Ranged DPS?

[MirageReaper]

I'll also throw this out there: how the hell does your guild manage to finish KP with only 1 Ranged DPS?

 

Beats me, I wasn't there during the fight. For Bonethrasher, thanks to Target of Target we all know who he's going hit next so that person would stop moving. For Fabricator, the Marauders would each pop bloodthirst when the armor stacks gets burned.

[Vid-szhite]

Beats me, I wasn't there during the fight. For Bonethrasher, thanks to Target of Target we all know who he's going hit next so that person would stop moving. For Fabricator, the Marauders would each pop bloodthirst when the armor stacks gets burned.

 

How do you do the puzzle if all your DPS are down in the pit? Is there a way to prevent the healers from being pulled down? How do you pop the proxy mines? So much goes on during the fabricator fight that practically requires Ranged DPS.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[MirageReaper]

If I know how they did it I'd tell you. They probably had one GOOD ranged DPSer that was running the puzzle in the middle of the fight. Or they could changed to their other alts before the fight.

[LLHomme]

I'll also throw this out there: how the hell does your guild manage to finish KP with only 1 Ranged DPS?

 

Honestly its possible, my current Oceanic guild but currently stuck on a dead US server due to time zone differences are running EV and KP HM and completing them weekly without any ranged DPS. Roughly we run with 1 Juggernaut Main Tank and a Powertech Tank, 1 Ops and 1 Sorc Healer, a Vengeance Juggernaut DPS, an Assassin, Operative and a Maruader.

 

Also, vengeance juggernaut averages about 1,300dps on average and its utility and sustainability to survive aoe dmg brings much to the raid group

[Vid-szhite]

Honestly its possible, my current Oceanic guild but currently stuck on a dead US server due to time zone differences are running EV and KP HM and completing them weekly without any ranged DPS. Roughly we run with 1 Juggernaut Main Tank and a Powertech Tank, 1 Ops and 1 Sorc Healer, a Vengeance Juggernaut DPS, an Assassin, Operative and a Maruader.

 

Also, vengeance juggernaut averages about 1,300dps on average and its utility and sustainability to survive aoe dmg brings much to the raid group

 

I honestly do think we're capable of pulling more than that, based on the results of my test parses. We should be capable of at least 1400-1500 with a proper rotation and higher tier gear.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[dragonfor]

OP, the problem is with your Guild, not your class.

[MirageReaper]

I ran quick parser with a Vengeance Juggernaut in full Columni gear with Rakata Implants and Earpiace. The Juggs hardest hitting attack that did majority of the damage was Ravage and people on the Marauder's board were bragging how powerful their Ravage now was. Problem for them is they can use it only every 27 seconds. Juggs on the other hand has Rampage which gives them 30% chance to use Ravage every 9 seconds and generate 2 rage as a bonus.

 

Also testing your DPS on a combat dummy isn't the same as real boss. Bosses of have knock backs, stuns, and sometimes invulnerability phases that reduces your over DPS during the fight.

[Dracosz]

I don't know what you guys are doing, but I've been pulling 1800+ DPS in all my raids and tests.

 

Vengeance Juggernauts are fine. Armor debuffs are a lot more valuable to raids than you'd like to think and their capacity to aid tanks out on heavy damage fights via intercede or even taunting off (and popping cds) while a healer catches up.

 

Player DPS is all VERY close at the moment. While I'm not always the top DPS in my guild, we all fluctuate between 1700-1900 DPS depending on the fight and the phase (We have pretty much every mDPS and rDPS in full rakata always ready to swap in and out). For instance, on fights with high movement our marauder outperforms me by ~60-70 DPS (IE Warlord/Soa), but on low mobility fights (Like Tanks or Kragga (And yes, it's low mobility if your tank positions him right)) I pull ahead by a similar margin.

[Tattoonny]

guilds that choose groups on theory crafting. God I hate the current mind set of MMO Guild leaders. I used to run a pretty FUN guild in WoW, and as long as A TANK, reasonably geared, and a couple healers, were available we would do guild raids, even with players in greens.

 

It is due to the current style of raiding, where it is more a job than a fun activity, that I never bothered join a guild in SWTOR.

[Dracosz]

 

It is due to the current style of raiding, where it is more a job than a fun activity, that I never bothered join a guild in SWTOR.

 

Run your own guild, with people you trust and enjoy playing with. I guarantee that you'll enjoy the experience a lot more.

[xXStraightEdgeXx]

OP

Not trying to sound like an *****

But the Juggy is the only pure tanking class, We dont have much in the DPS field.

We were made for survivability.

The reason for them picking a Mara over a Jugg, after the 1.2 Mara dish out stupid amounts of DPS. my best friend is a lvl 50 mara and averages 2k+ with each hit. Us juggys can average 1.5k with the right gear and such.

Juggys pretty much never a viable dps for ops and hm.

 

If you are a Jugg, Tanking is your home. And when it comes to fitting into a group, dont wait for someone to LFG for hms and ops. Go out and find some guildies or good guys and set up your own hm group.

In my guild i was a "benchwarmer" in our tanking classes. but I did hm's with different players got better with Tanking, then I started tanking easier hms (BT) and moved my way up.

 

Hope i helped, Happy Tanking

[Goare]

Juggys pretty much never a viable dps for ops and hm.

 

Yeesh.

[Teioh_White]

I'm the off tank in my guild, so I run in Veng Dps spec, and just stance/gear up for those fights that require a 2nd tank of sorts. The DPS we use in the guild are Sin, Mara, Sniper, and Merc.

 

Under good conditions, only the Mara beats me, and I lag a bit behind him. I'm not so great on fights like Soa, where due to lack of range and frequent movement I get a lot of dead GCD range don't, which isn't great, but if allowed to stand there and wail the mechanic support good dps just fine. I actually feel, comparitively, we perform better in DPS than a tanking role, provided you don't already have a glut of dps who can taunt.

 

Not sure about beating a PT in damage, I imagine if they can make sure to maximize rotation they'll still be near the top of the charts, it's easier for them to slip up and not use the two GCD's between fishing attempts as effectively as possible.

 

And have others actually gotten Ops to Mara like damage? Our's is pretty much healer full time now, just because he always seemed to lag in damage, and now the parses are pretty much backing that up, while his healing is pretty great.

[Vid-szhite]

OP

Not trying to sound like an *****

But the Juggy is the only pure tanking class, We dont have much in the DPS field.

We were made for survivability.

The reason for them picking a Mara over a Jugg, after the 1.2 Mara dish out stupid amounts of DPS. my best friend is a lvl 50 mara and averages 2k+ with each hit. Us juggys can average 1.5k with the right gear and such.

Juggys pretty much never a viable dps for ops and hm.

 

If you are a Jugg, Tanking is your home. And when it comes to fitting into a group, dont wait for someone to LFG for hms and ops. Go out and find some guildies or good guys and set up your own hm group.

In my guild i was a "benchwarmer" in our tanking classes. but I did hm's with different players got better with Tanking, then I started tanking easier hms (BT) and moved my way up.

 

Hope i helped, Happy Tanking

 

Uh... about that:

 

I don't know what you guys are doing, but I've been pulling 1800+ DPS in all my raids and tests.

 

Vengeance Juggernauts are fine. Armor debuffs are a lot more valuable to raids than you'd like to think and their capacity to aid tanks out on heavy damage fights via intercede or even taunting off (and popping cds) while a healer catches up.

 

Player DPS is all VERY close at the moment. While I'm not always the top DPS in my guild, we all fluctuate between 1700-1900 DPS depending on the fight and the phase (We have pretty much every mDPS and rDPS in full rakata always ready to swap in and out). For instance, on fights with high movement our marauder outperforms me by ~60-70 DPS (IE Warlord/Soa), but on low mobility fights (Like Tanks or Kragga (And yes, it's low mobility if your tank positions him right)) I pull ahead by a similar margin.

 

Straightedge, I think either one of two things happened: either you drank the kool-aid, or you're just not very good at DPS.

 

Truth is, Jugg doesn't even have the best survivability of all the DPS - it's good because of our armor, but we don't have as many cooldowns as a Marauder for mitigating damage. The devs were actually quite happy with how much DPS we were doing pre-1.2, but were disappointed with our survivability, and since all classes in DPS specs are meant to do the same DPS, that means we're quite capable of pulling the same DPS as a Marauder. Now, can we throw on Soresu and a cooldown or two and become a ghetto tank for a few seconds? Sure. We'll still die like a DPS if the main tank doesn't get hate back soon, though.

Edited April 16, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[xXStraightEdgeXx]

Uh... about that:

 

 

 

Straightedge, I think either one of two things happened: either you drank the kool-aid, or you're just not very good at DPS.

 

Truth is, Jugg doesn't even have the best survivability of all the DPS - it's good because of our armor, but we don't have as many cooldowns as a Marauder for mitigating damage. The devs were actually quite happy with how much DPS we were doing pre-1.2, but were disappointed with our survivability, and since all classes in DPS specs are meant to do the same DPS, that means we're quite capable of pulling the same DPS as a Marauder. Now, can we throw on Soresu and a cooldown or two and become a ghetto tank for a few seconds? Sure. We'll still die like a DPS if the main tank doesn't get hate back soon, though.

 

I believe it would be the second one haha, I have always been tank/tank speced. so my post was slightly biased on the tanking end. I respect your response and appreciate your input, and it is nice to know that us Juggs can dish out a decent amount of DPS. I was basing this alot off of my friend and I questing/pvping together.

thanks for the response