Melee are on a disadvantage again

[Seamhainn]

Hello!

 

I play a Jedi Knight Sentinel, and my guild and I did okay for the established Flashpoints and Operations, having two or sometimes three melees in the first two Operations.

 

I love the game, and I hoped BioWare would not take the path most if not all other MMOs took, setting melees on a disadvantage. But after 1.2 and the introduction of the new Flashpoint and Operation I must say BioWare dropped the ball. Now the group composition is forced on the players without any space variation. After switching on my Trooper Gunner who is far worse eqipped as its only a twink things were much, much easier.

 

Admittedly those two instances are only live for a very short time. But only after a few tries it is obvious that they are much easier with only ranged dds. If this tendency goes any further we can kiss our Jedi Knights (and imperial counterparts) goodbye. And this has nothing to do with "learn to play".

 

Take care

[cshouston]

...And this has nothing to do with "learn to play"...

 

Yes... yes, it does.

 

Sentinels are currently one of the top DPS classes in the game (if not *the* top), and ours had absolutely no trouble putting up big numbers in the new ops on hard mode. We also completed the new flashpoint on the PTS with a random Sentinel we grabbed off of the fleet, and had zero issues.

Edited April 13, 2012 by cshouston

[Seamhainn]

I did not aim for the new Flashpoint but the new Operation, and didn't have any issues regarding my dps output. All I critizies is that melees are on a disadvantage due to aoe effects which weren't an issue after switching to ranged dds.

 

Even if you say all this stuff is doable with melees, I still say its not okay if it is easier doable with ranged then with melee. Poor design in my book.

[sakidnasty]

Ranged has always been easier to play than melee. It's been like that in ANY game.

[Erevan_Kindelar]

Ranged for sure is easier to play than melee, but the Trooper/BH classes have taken a few for the team in 1.2 with a few tweaks that look like they might have been intended as minor buffs coming out as either bugs or nerfs if the comments on the class forums are anything to go by.

However having said that, the Sentinel/Marauder is outrageously powerful at the moment. It is the hardest class to master for sure, but anyone who does master it and make full use of its interrupts and defensive cooldowns is basically playing the alpha class in this game.

[HotLeadSingerGuy]

Yes... yes, it does.

 

Sentinels are currently one of the top DPS classes in the game (if not *the* top), and ours had absolutely no trouble putting up big numbers in the new ops on hard mode. We also completed the new flashpoint on the PTS with a random Sentinel we grabbed off of the fleet, and had zero issues.

 

In terms of the new Op he's right though. Ranged is much preferred. Many of the bosses have AoE attacks or ranged attacks that can be avoided entirely if the DPS is ranged. For the first bosses (Toth and Zorn) you can go the entire fight without anyone but the tanks getting hit. Things like that shouldn't be possible.

 

Yes, melee dps is still ranked higher in damage...but as long as you're beyond the Enrage threshold the extra damage is pretty much irrelevant. From what I've seen so far, ranged is much preferred in the new content (not sure about the FP, but at least the Op).

[PhoenixMatrix]

For the new operation, I don't know... There are a lot of mechanics that require melee range (or rather, while they can be done without, favors it). The rocks that have damage evenly distributed between people who get hit sounds like it would make it a lot easier on higher difficulty if you have melees on that side of the fight.

 

The second fight, on the storm side, definitely favors melees if you don't want your ranged damage dealers having to run back and forth to take double destruction.

 

The third boss you're stuck in a small square for most of the fight. Not much range there.

 

And finally for the final boss, the AOEs tossed around and the shields from the warriors can definately spank ranged, though that one is probably a bit easier with a few more ranged damage dealers because of the last phase where you may want to kite the boss around.

 

 

 

The new flashpoint about, is a WHOLE OTHER BALLPARK. The droid only does plasma arc on damage dealers and healers, you have to move around so ranged interrupts are king, and if you don't interrupt everything, anyone near the tank gets completely ripped to shred. Having anyone near the tank means the lightning spheres will pop near the tank forcing much more movement, which makes interrupts harder, which force people to move more, which.....

 

I was on a scrapper spec scoundrel the first time, and felt like such a liability. At least i have the option to respec Dirty Fighter, which mitigates a lot of the issues (scrappers needing to be on the side/behind makes this completely crazy), but that is the most "screw you melee!!" fight in the entire game. Sure, the sentinels and vanguard 6 second interrupts help, but its still stupidly unforgiving for melees. Ranged damage dealers completely trivialize this fight.

[Kaonis]

Ranged has always been easier to play than melee. It's been like that in ANY game.

 

Ya, and in those games ranged always had either limited ammo (costing them money to play) or non/non-fast renewing resources to limit them along with much less health (i.e. glass cannons) this game has none of those to try and balance it out. Your argument in thus rendered invalid.

 

Add in the fact most bosses have some sort of close up AOE/hazard it makes melee even worse off because we're in the thick of most attacks to top off the fact that our health is the same as pretty well everyone else of equal gear minus the tank.

 

There's practically no reason to go anything BUT ranged in this game with the current mechanics. You get to avoid the aoe attacks/hazards, you get to have a better view of the battlefield, and if the enemy moves big deal, just keep shooting while the melees scramble to get back into position to attack.

[Damodude]

As an Annihilation Marauder, and raid leader of a successful nightmare mode 8 man ops team, as well as a successful 16 man raider, I can assure you that the melee difficulty level in regards to Flashpoints and Operations is perfectly fine.

 

It may be that melee just isn't your thing, and that you're better at your trooper. And that's fine, nothing wrong with that at all. But completely neglecting the possibility that you're just not so great at melee is a mistake, and blaming it on the game is just ignorant. It may be that it's a little tougher for melee, but it's certainly not unreasonable.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Damodude

[Seront]

So, we're a casualish guild and we went into Story Mode of the new Operation last night. We did look up strategies, and we did wipe a fair number of times, but we cleared the first two bosses after a few hours. We're in pretty much all Rakata.

 

Make up:

Tanks:

Jedi Guardian

wow, forgot, heh

 

Healers:

Sage

Scoundrel (me)

 

DPS:

Jedi Shadow

Commando

Scoundrel

Sage

 

We had dps meters up for the Shadow, Commando, and Scoundrel, and they were all REALLY close in terms of dps for both boss fights. For most attempts they were within less than a percent. The Shadow actually commented to me on how he felt the raid was significantly more melee friendly than things have been in the past, so..

 

Anyway, we had a blast. The new op is solid and lots of fun. WAY overtuned for Story Mode, imo, but we enjoyed it a lot.

[swpoop]

So, we're a casualish guild and we went into Story Mode of the new Operation last night. We did look up strategies, and we did wipe a fair number of times, but we cleared the first two bosses after a few hours. We're in pretty much all Rakata.

 

Make up:

Tanks:

Jedi Guardian

wow, forgot, heh

 

Healers:

Sage

Scoundrel (me)

 

DPS:

Jedi Shadow

Commando

Scoundrel

Sage

 

We had dps meters up for the Shadow, Commando, and Scoundrel, and they were all REALLY close in terms of dps for both boss fights. For most attempts they were within less than a percent. The Shadow actually commented to me on how he felt the raid was significantly more melee friendly than things have been in the past, so..

 

Anyway, we had a blast. The new op is solid and lots of fun. WAY overtuned for Story Mode, imo, but we enjoyed it a lot.

 

 

And if you would have had sent, all the ranged dps would be qq'ing. Sents are killing it in terms of dps right now (as they should).

[Karl-Just-Karl]

Ran lost Island on operative last night, had a ton of fun, but do agree that the mechanics of the first, bonus, and last boss make them very melee unfriendly.

[Seront]

And if you would have had sent, all the ranged dps would be qq'ing. Sents are killing it in terms of dps right now (as they should).

 

Yeah, except our guild members tend not to be whiny babies. So . . . doubtful. =)

[Zuckazz]

Ya, and in those games ranged always had either limited ammo (costing them money to play) or non/non-fast renewing resources to limit them along with much less health (i.e. glass cannons) this game has none of those to try and balance it out. Your argument in thus rendered invalid.

 

Add in the fact most bosses have some sort of close up AOE/hazard it makes melee even worse off because we're in the thick of most attacks to top off the fact that our health is the same as pretty well everyone else of equal gear minus the tank.

 

There's practically no reason to go anything BUT ranged in this game with the current mechanics. You get to avoid the aoe attacks/hazards, you get to have a better view of the battlefield, and if the enemy moves big deal, just keep shooting while the melees scramble to get back into position to attack.

 

This is 100% correct. There is not enough overall balance, and BW is in bit of a pickle because they wont be able to make any sort of corrections in the short term without really upsetting the players. Overtime they can modify the balance slightly but for now...recruit those shooters! +75% of the events out there favor ranged in a major way.

 

The new OP is way overturned for story mode as is the new FP (compared to story ev/kp and all other story FPs). I like a challenge myself, but wow. In my opinion leave them as is, and keep it rough. Its just the people who don't like the challenge will compare the new story mode FP/OP to story mode EV/KP and will be very upset. I smell a nerf...

[Pigtot]

Yeah there is nothing wrong with melee in this game but as it is with EVERY mmo there will be ppl qq'ing about something and so things get nerf'd to satisfy the babies and when they go to play that class they qq because it's not strong enough ( mainly because they qq'd to have it nerf'd ) Yes melee may take more lumps then a ranged dd but if you have a healer that knows what they are doing it's no big deal i prefer melee dd's in the group over ranged any day.

[LordOscuro]

Certain bosses take away concealment invisibility before the fight so we can not use the dps skill that provides "hidden strike".

 

We need a fix asap....

Edited April 13, 2012 by LordOscuro

[Tagashaga]

Let me say for start my main character is a Jedi Guardian. Ya the AOE on the new bosses hurt but if you have a decent healer your set. Play the Guardian right and ***** easy. For one if your goin into something like that either you need a awesome healer(preferably Sage) or a Healer and someone who can assist (scoundrel assistant).

[Stanlec]

Yes... yes, it does.

 

Sentinels are currently one of the top DPS classes in the game (if not *the* top), and ours had absolutely no trouble putting up big numbers in the new ops on hard mode. We also completed the new flashpoint on the PTS with a random Sentinel we grabbed off of the fleet, and had zero issues.

 

No trouble at all on HM EC.

[Seront]

Let me say for start my main character is a Jedi Guardian. Ya the AOE on the new bosses hurt but if you have a decent healer your set. Play the Guardian right and ***** easy. For one if your goin into something like that either you need a awesome healer(preferably Sage) or a Healer and someone who can assist (scoundrel assistant).

 

Assistant? Ex-fing-cuse me? In the op last night, except in situations where I just didn't need to heal because we were separated and my group was taking less damage, I managed to keep up quite well with heals from our sage, who, imo, is quite good.

 

If you're talking about 4 man groups, my apologies, but I feel that post-1.2, I can do pretty damn well relative to a sage.

[PhoenixMatrix]

Let me say for start my main character is a Jedi Guardian. Ya the AOE on the new bosses hurt but if you have a decent healer your set. Play the Guardian right and ***** easy. For one if your goin into something like that either you need a awesome healer(preferably Sage) or a Healer and someone who can assist (scoundrel assistant).

 

Since the new bosses often require you to split in 2 groups, scoundrels with their new buffs are disgustingly good. Kolto Cloud is freagin ridiculous now, ticking its whole power in 6 seconds.

 

Sages are still awesome because of the ever so yummy Force Armor though

 

We did do everything last night with a commando and a scoundrel healer without issues.

[Seront]

Since the new bosses often require you to split in 2 groups, scoundrels with their new buffs are disgustingly good. Kolto Cloud is freagin ridiculous now, ticking its whole power in 6 seconds.

 

Sages are still awesome because of the ever so yummy Force Armor though

 

We did do everything last night with a commando and a scoundrel healer without issues.

 

Yeah, I finally felt on close to even footing with our sage. Having 3 stacks of upper hand is great when I need to run out of the fire and keep healing, I have up to 3 instant emergency medpacks. Sage gets to force speed out of the fire and resume casting, I just run out of it slowly but have a short buffer of heals.

 

I really wouldn't say disgustingly good. The old AOE was useless. Cast once in a blue moon (mainly on the stairs on Soa just for ***** n giggles).

Edited April 13, 2012 by Seront

[Talorra]

If you think that story mode is overtuned and melee unfriendly, you should have seen the first build on the PTS

 

KNOCKBACK KNOCKBACK KNOCKBACK KNOCKBACK

[Seront]

If you think that story mode is overtuned and melee unfriendly, you should have seen the first build on the PTS

 

KNOCKBACK KNOCKBACK KNOCKBACK KNOCKBACK

 

Heh, I remember watching some streams of that. Wowza.

[Stanlec]

If you think that story mode is overtuned and melee unfriendly, you should have seen the first build on the PTS

 

KNOCKBACK KNOCKBACK KNOCKBACK KNOCKBACK

 

^ This. I wanted to watch pugs try the first build...

[FeralAgression]

I currently play a marauder and tbh with crit heals and berserk im roughly doing 250 HPS to myself so as far as the AOE damage that helps mitigate a ton of the damage i take. On top of good use of cool downs makes a lot of the damage pretty trivial from melee range. I will however note that a lot of the previous statements about the bosses are right in regards to stacked ranged dps. First boss in denova they can literally not take damage unless its from the mental anguish debuff. (Though our dps mercs can cleanse themselves pretty much instantly handy thing) Storm caller/firebrand however i was disappointed that our range could continue to DPS the tank during the shield phase while i killed the adds. (good for groups missing enrage i suppose) Just imo was boring to sit there for 10+ seconds watching my range buddy plunk away.