Remove threat from taunt

[Vankris]

This is a bad bad mechanic, no matter how you look at it.

 

Background:

The way taunt works in this game, taunt place the tank at 130% threat of the highest on the mob list threat-wise, even if the tank himself is first on threat.

 

 

The problem

Last night, on our down of toth, i didn't abuse that mechanic but i did 6 taunt total in ~5 minutes, those 6 taunt generate 60% of my total threat. If i had use taunts on CD, it probably more in the range of 90-95%

 

That make tank rotation almost completely irrelevant, and remove half the fun of playing a class. I say almost irrelevant because there is still the enrage timer to beat.

 

 

 

Example:

parse of my combat log

23:49:11.528 Vankrys activates Neural Jolt.

23:49:11.822 Vankrys's Neural Jolt adds effect Taunt to Toth.

23:49:11.936 Vankrys's Shocked (Tech) hits Toth for 103 energy damage, causing 154 threat.

23:49:12.107 Vankrys taunts Toth, causing 350251 threat.

23:49:12.430 Vankrys gains Force Armor from Hurlelune.

23:49:12.431 Hurlelune's Force Armor adds effect Force-imbalance to Vankrys.

23:49:13.248 Toth's Smash hits Vankrys for 1727 kinetic damage, causing 1727 threat. (1727 absorbed)

23:49:13.736 Vankrys activates Stockstrike.

23:49:13.736 Vankrys spends 2 ammo unit.

23:49:13.739 Vankrys's Shocked (Tech) hits Toth for 103 energy damage, causing 154 threat.

23:49:13.741 Vankrys's Ion Cell hits Toth for 162 energy damage, causing 244 threat.

23:49:14.091 Vankrys's Stockstrike hits Toth for 1065 kinetic damage, causing 1597 threat.

23:49:14.092 Vankrys dodges Toth's Cleave, causing 1 threat.

23:49:14.468 Hurlelune's Rejuvenate critcally heals Vankrys for 544*, causing 231 threat!

23:49:16.372 Vankrys activates High Impact Bolt.

23:49:16.372 Vankrys spends 2 ammo unit.

23:49:16.542 Vankrys's Shocked (Tech) hits Toth for 103 energy damage, causing 154 threat.

23:49:16.544 Vankrys's Ion Cell hits Toth for 162 energy damage, causing 244 threat.

23:49:16.687 Vankrys's High Impact Bolt hits Toth for 1242 energy damage, causing 1864 threat.

 

See how ridicule threat generated by stockstrike and high impact bolt compare to a single taunt. past the first 30 seconds, i could hold treat spamming taunt, this is not good gameplay.

 

 

Solution

Simply have taunt work the same way it does on every other mmo games

 

1. it force the mob to attack you for a few seconds

2. it place you at the top of the aggro list, exact same threat than the highest.

 

if you have the aggro, taunt should do nothing since you are the highest threatwise and you have mob attention.

[Tenacity]

Without that taunt mechanic, tanks wouldnt be able to effectively hold threat.

 

Damage scales up at such a high rate in this game that tanks simply cant keep up, especially with how poorly itemized most tanking equipment in the game is. Maybe the extra threat from taunt is too much, but without it tanks at the rakata+ gear level would be struggling with threat against similarly geared damage dealers.

[Vankris]

i get that, but making it threat a complete non issue with taunt is not the solution.

 

yes, balance threat output of tank (using a scale factor on ion cell for exemple), but tank need to work for their threat, where is the fun?

[JakkFrost]

This is the threat mechanic I "grew up" with, using taunt (known as provoke in the game I'm talking about) to maintain threat, rather than just to get it back, although it was used then too. Even if the tank maintained provoke at every instant it was ready, threat could still be stolen. But using provoke at every opportunity meant it was easier for the tank to get threat back.

 

But that game (FFXI for the record) used a two-tiered threat system, sustained threat and temporary threat. I don't know if other games use this method, but perhaps SW does, and from the sound of endgame mechanics, I'm guessing it does.

Edited May 9, 2012 by JakkFrost

[Dalwhat]

As I understand it the taunts in this game are really just an aggro snap. They don't provide a set amount of threat but rather sufficient to ensure aggro. As such the amount of aggro being seen to be generated will vary according to situation. Taunts without aggro generation are pointless.

[corbanite]

Once tank has solid agro the dps can open up. If they open up too early then dps pull boss. If they take it easy and ramp it up to going all out at 30 seconds then this is the same as how they play in wow. (Not saying the mechanic is the same.. saying the outcome is similar)

 

It means as a tank once I have and am sure I have initial agro my priorities change throughout the fight. During the first 30 seconds I am concerned with generating as much threat as possible. After that time I can relax on the threat and start use some cd'd reducing my damage as much as possible.

 

Just different to how WoW does it.

Edited April 13, 2012 by corbanite

[G-Girl]

As a healer I find it something entirely opposite of fun when the tank can't hold agro and mobs start attacking me. This happens so regularly that for some time I was convinced that they didn't have a taunt at all.

 

In fact I think it's just that there are a lot of very bad tanks around. I really wouldn't like to see anything changed to make it even more difficult for them to fulfill their primary function.

[amnie]

if you taunt some mob, and then the dps keeps attacking, as soon as the taunt is over the dps will have the aggro again. the way I see it (mind you I've not played my tank in a while) ... the taunt skills are used to keep the mobs off .. say.. the healer.. as an 'emergency' skill, so while they are active only the tank should attack that mob - to get enough threat.

[Dalwhat]

Just different to how WoW does it.

 

ONOES!

 

I think (ex)WoW players have to get to grips with the fact that there are other games out there other than WoW and that there are other ways of playing a MMO than the way Blizzard decrees. I find it really amusing when every thread will have someone appear in it saying the way Bioware approaches an issue isn't the way WoW does and in so doing it is automatically wrong. In my experience of reading WoWbies on these forums the vast majority seem to have very little experience of MMOs beyond the behemoth that is WoW. Maybe if they played other games as they are presented rather than continually demand WoW mechanics they would enjoy it more. If not then perhaps they should come to the realisation that the only WoW clone they enjoy is WoW and resubscribe.

[JakkFrost]

ONOES!

 

I think (ex)WoW players have to get to grips with the fact that there are other games out there other than WoW and that there are other ways of playing a MMO than the way Blizzard decrees. I find it really amusing when every thread will have someone appear in it saying the way Bioware approaches an issue isn't the way WoW does and in so doing it is automatically wrong. In my experience of reading WoWbies on these forums the vast majority seem to have very little experience of MMOs beyond the behemoth that is WoW. Maybe if they played other games as they are presented rather than continually demand WoW mechanics they would enjoy it more. If not then perhaps they should come to the realisation that the only WoW clone they enjoy is WoW and resubscribe.

 

Did you even bother to read the whole post you're partially quoting? Unless you did and you're just expanding on a point he made, in which case you should clarify that.

[Vankris]

of course it is not wow, i don't care about wow. Leave WoW or any other game where they are, just try to imagine what is fun in a game.

 

 

but you can't justify an ability, whatever it is, that generate half a million threat where my best ability only generate 2k at most. i generate more threat in one taunt than in 2 minute fighting. If the fight does not require movement, i can litterally step away from the computer for a few minute, i will not lose aggro.

 

As been said earler, taunt should generate just enough threat to put me on top of the aggro list and force an enemy to attack me, and should not generate threat if the enemy is already attacking me. You need to keep player on their toes. I never said to make it incredibly hard to hold agrro, but at least your rotation should have an impact

 

 

Think of it this way, if you watch a game, like the final of the world cup, what game is the most epic.

- the one where the winner win by 9-0, score being 6-0 at half time.

- the one where the wnner win by 3-2 after loosing 0-3 at the half time scoring the last goal during injury time.

 

Think of it as an action movie, is the movie more entertaining if the hero is never ever worry, indestructible and just plain kill everyone, or if the hero just manage barely to overcome impossible odd, everything that can possibly go wrong, do go wrong etc...

[Darth_Victus]

I am trying to understand why you think this mechanic is bad.

 

From what I gathered, you were not the tank, and you hit your taunt button and pulled threat off the tank.

 

Simple solution: If your not the tank, remove the taunt feature from your action bars.

[Vankris]

i have been a tank for 7 years cross a few MMO, an still a tank in this game. I do play at a reasonably good level. (was in a world TOP 200 guild in WoW, currently sitting a 10/10 nightmare in swtor, be on a much more cuasual schedule ^^)

 

 

 

i don't think it's good because it makes you feel completely useless.

 

imagine, your a dps, you have you rotation , you pay attention to the proc, you're building your combo point, doing every thing and you're doing something like 2k dps

 

now if you just spam 1 ability, once every 12 seconds, and do nothing in between you'd be doing 1.9k dps

 

how is that any fun?

Edited April 13, 2012 by Vankris

[Dalwhat]

but you can't justify an ability, whatever it is, that generate half a million threat where my best ability only generate 2k at most. i generate more threat in one taunt than in 2 minute fighting. If the fight does not require movement, i can litterally step away from the computer for a few minute, i will not lose aggro.

 

 

Are you sure you're correct? As I understand it taunt gives you an automatic 110% threat of the person currently with aggro whether you be at 99% or 1%.

In that respect, in this game, "taunt" isn't so much a taunt as a "snap aggro to" button. With the cooldown involved you can't spam the ability constantly but if I'm correct in this then aggro management for tanks should be far easier than in other games I've played.

 

Like I said I'm not totally sure I'm not talking bollocks.

[Vankris]

Are you sure you're correct? As I understand it taunt gives you an automatic 110% threat of the person currently with aggro whether you be at 99% or 1%.

In that respect, in this game, "taunt" isn't so much a taunt as a "snap aggro to" button. With the cooldown involved you can't spam the ability constantly but if I'm correct in this then aggro management for tanks should be far easier than in other games I've played.

 

Like I said I'm not totally sure I'm not talking bollocks.

 

It's 130% if you're taunt at max melee range. but yes, i have no probleme with taunt giving you half a millions threat if you're taunting of another tank for example.

 

But right now, if you're tanking, you have the aggro, taunt will still give you a 30% threat bump. If you have build 1 million aggro, that about 300k aggro in one, off GCD ability.

 

and you are now sitting at 1.3 millions aggro, in 12 seconds, you will gain about 400k, making you at 1.7 millions aggro

 

in another 12, taunt will give you 500k

 

 

It's so expenential, it's complettely out of control. bear in mind, dps in the mean time are sitting at 200-300k threat max.

[Neollama]

The problem i see is that it is too easy to hold agro on one mob and too hard on a pack of mobs. at least for my juggernaut.

 

And if you are posting in this thread and don't understand what he is talking about look at his combat log. if you don't understand that...well

[Darth_Vicente]

Remove threat from an ability that exists to generate threat....

Okay, great idea.

[RepublicChicken]

This reminds me about some guy in LotRO: "I want to make a lot of money, but how? I spend a lot in the AH." Well, first of all, don't buy a lot of crap in the AH. This is the same thing. Don't spam Taunt over and over, then whine when it works as intended. Only use it when you need to pull a mob to you.

[Baelish]

As a healer I find it something entirely opposite of fun when the tank can't hold agro and mobs start attacking me. This happens so regularly that for some time I was convinced that they didn't have a taunt at all.

 

In fact I think it's just that there are a lot of very bad tanks around. I really wouldn't like to see anything changed to make it even more difficult for them to fulfill their primary function.

Actually, no. It's that there are a lot of very bad DPS around. Tanks in SWTOR aren't equipped to grab and maintain aggro consistently on every one of a pack of 4-5 mobs spread over a wide area. There will very often be loose ones that simply aren't practicable to Tank. The thing is, those should be the very weakest ones of the pack and should vapourise in seconds under the focused fire of the DPS. They should cause you, the healer, no more inconvenience than a bug splatting on a windscreen.

 

if you taunt some mob, and then the dps keeps attacking, as soon as the taunt is over the dps will have the aggro again...

This is an inaccurate assessment of how Taunts work in SWTOR. You don't know the facts, so aren't qualified to comment meaningfully.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Baelish