TLFJ Posted April 6, 2012 Posted April 6, 2012 (edited) With the large re-balancing of classes in 1.2, Why didn't bioware revisit aoe healing? I feel sge/sorc is far, far superior to the other 2 classes in regards to aoe heals. Both in absolute amounts, ease, and particularly number of people. It just seems like an opportunity to bring the classes more in line. personally, I think the people limit results in the biggest gap. Probably, sorcs/sages should be limited to 4 people, but I imagine they would be pretty angry at yet another nerf. What are other peoples thoughts? Reference: Sorc/Sage: Cast: 2 seconds, CD: 15 seconds; range: 30m, "fire-and-forget", heals 8 people for 2980 over 10 seconds(however, each tick can crit) BH/trooper: Cast: Instant, CD: 4 seconds, range: 30m, targeted aoe, heals 4 peoplefor ~600 (can be talented higher) Scoundrel/Op: Cast: Instant, CD: 12 seconds, range: 10m, targeted aoe, heals 4 people for ~1400 over 10 seconds Edited April 6, 2012 by TLFJ
Bowoci Posted April 6, 2012 Posted April 6, 2012 Great, now they'll nerf our AOE heals... to make us as crappy as everybody else! Thnx:X
TLFJ Posted April 6, 2012 Author Posted April 6, 2012 ...to make us as crappy as everybody else! Thnx:X That was the point.
iceperson Posted April 6, 2012 Posted April 6, 2012 (edited) With the large re-balancing of classes in 1.2, Why didn't bioware revisit aoe healing? I feel sge/sorc is far, far superior to the other 2 classes in regards to aoe heals. Both in absolute amounts, ease, and particularly number of people. It just seems like an opportunity to bring the classes more in line. personally, I think the people limit results in the biggest gap. Probably, sorcs/sages should be limited to 4 people, but I imagine they would be pretty angry at yet another nerf. What are other peoples thoughts? Reference: Sorc/Sage: Cast: 2 seconds, CD: 15 seconds; range: 30m, "fire-and-forget", heals 8 people for 2980 over 10 seconds(however, each tick can crit) BH/trooper: Cast: Instant, CD: 4 seconds, range: 8m, targeted aoe, heals 4 peoplefor ~600 (can be talented higher) Scoundrel/Op: Cast: Instant, CD: 12 seconds, range: 10m, targeted aoe, heals 4 people for ~1400 over 10 seconds i always love when someone compares things and they get basic things like range/radius wrong. all the classes have the same range on their AOE. merc is the only one with the smaller radius (it's also the only one that is an 11 point talent and has the shortest CD.) Also With regards to your question about Commando/Scoundrel Area of Effect healing not scaling to group size, please understand that no heal, on any class, scales with group size. The most powerful Area of Effect heals in the game (Salvation/Revivification) affects up to 8 players, but does not scale with group size. These abilities are very costly, have an activation time requirement and require the targets to stand in a localized area for ten seconds to receive the full benefit. We plan on improving the overall Area of Effect healing performance of the Mercenary/Commando in the next major Game Update (1.2) by increasing the number of targets affected by Kolto Missile/Kolto Bomb. http://www.swtor.com/blog/community-qa-feb-17th-2012 Edited April 6, 2012 by iceperson
Gustehbus Posted April 6, 2012 Posted April 6, 2012 I am not very familiar with BH/op healing mechanics, but the changes to sorc healing makes the aoe a lot more costly than it is now. It will be much more difficult to cast the aoe heal with the proc bonus, meaning that it is going to be used at 100% force cost more often. With the consumption nerf, sorcs are going to be much more hesitant to just throw the aoe heal down at their convenience as well. Force management is going to be a struggle; we won't be able to afford to knock off 15% chunks of our health every time we want to aoe heal.
donlep Posted April 6, 2012 Posted April 6, 2012 (edited) they should make the other classe's AE heal in line with the sage one, not the other way around either increase the amount healed by alot or the number of people healed by alot if they insist on a low # of people healed, then it NEEDS to be intelligent heals, that heal lowest health people first, as it is if 8 people are in range, 4 of whom are at full health, you risk not healing anyone at all... in 1,2 their stated purpose for healers was to make all viable for OPS etc, for commando i guess that means increasing the AE heal from 3-4 people(dumb heal still) and wrecking their ammo regen/consumption.......YEAH!! Edited April 6, 2012 by donlep
Melacon Posted April 6, 2012 Posted April 6, 2012 if they insist on a low # of people healed, then it NEEDS to be intelligent heals, that heal lowest health people first, as it is if 8 people are in range, 4 of whom are at full health, you risk not healing anyone at all... ! Until they fix this, limiting heals to 4 is just garbage, nothing like 0's popping up for you ae heal
TLFJ Posted April 6, 2012 Author Posted April 6, 2012 Fixed the data on the trooper - I was on my shadow and didn't switch over to confirm the range on it. I do not have a scoundrel, so let me know if that info is wrong.
TLFJ Posted April 6, 2012 Author Posted April 6, 2012 Until they fix this, limiting heals to 4 is just garbage, nothing like 0's popping up for you ae heal That's true. So that just further makes the other classes' aoe heals worse. I'm in favor of making them all go to 4, but they should be "smart" heals, otherwise it's useless.
Arzoo Posted April 6, 2012 Posted April 6, 2012 So your heal would be useless if you had to share the same frustrating non-smart 4-player capped (3 on live) mechanics as the other classes? At least with salvation there's the chance for the people who don't need heals to vacate the area.
ACTroyan Posted April 6, 2012 Posted April 6, 2012 ops aoe gets 10% heal boost but 3s added to cd for 1.2
VenaliterFA Posted April 6, 2012 Posted April 6, 2012 Sorcs may have the best AoE healing, but easily the worst single target healing in 1.2. So really, it balances out. Though myself, I prefer a model where each healing class has comparable single target and AE heals.
Battilea Posted April 6, 2012 Posted April 6, 2012 (edited) Scoundrel/Op: Cast: Instant, CD: 12 seconds, range: 10m, targeted aoe, heals 4 people for ~1400 over 10 seconds 30m range, actually. 10m radius. And you probably should use the 1.2 numbers, with the slightly longer cooldown, 10% more healing, and healing over 6s. Also not sure of the basis of that 1400 healed, since I'm pretty sure my Op heals for more than that. But as long as whatever basis being used is truly comparable for all 3 classes... Anyway, my feeling is that the Sorc one is fine, but both the merc and Op ones need to be smart heals with a shorter cooldown than they have. And if they can't figure out how to get smart healing working, then they can keep the cooldown the same, but increase the number of people to 8. Edited April 6, 2012 by Battilea
ragamer Posted April 6, 2012 Posted April 6, 2012 (edited) On 1.2 Sages will be worser all around healers (Notice they aren't by far the worsest... The ONLY healer that can prevent damage can never be the worsest healer on a game, period)... ...IMO they should keep the best AOE to keep the balance now that Commandos/Scoundrels will be the prefered MT healers, but... ...ATM the gap between AOE capabilities is too high. Currently any Ops team that do not fill half their healing spots with Sages is crippling itself badly... The changes on 1.2 on AOE Healing for Commandos/Scoundrels are more or less cosmetical because you can set aside all numeric details but one... ...Coverage. You need HALF the ammount of Sages to cover the same ammount of ppl... Because a Sage can heal up to 8 persons, if the situation allows for it, it's really worthy for him to swap to "AOE Mode" and request their fellows to organize their formation to maximize its effects. Meanwhile... [i will talk about Scoundrel PoV which is the one I know 1st hand on Operations] ...As a Scoundrel I can provide a much higher HPS on 3 targets by using single target heals (and HoT) without any specific formation. So for me, swaping to AOE mode is not a net gain on overall HPS applied because I can only increase my coverage to 1 more person... ...I repeat I'm setting aside how much each person is healed for now, k? So I agree that Sages should keep the strongest AOE heal but... ...All healers should be able to swap to AOE mode and get a net gain on HPS applied (To justify the needs of adequate formation changes) and that cannot be achieved by individual output or smart healing... ...Coverage needs to be increased to 8 targets for all healers, as the Sage is able ATM. Then you can work on the specific numerics (and useability details) to be sure that Sages stay on top. EDIT: Just a detail... When I speak of global increase on Coverage to 8, the Commando Kolto Bomb "basic coverage" should stay at 3 with a higher Tier talent to increase it to 8... Because only dedicated healers can access full coverage powers at 31 points. Edited April 6, 2012 by ragamer
VenaliterFA Posted April 6, 2012 Posted April 6, 2012 On 1.2 Sages will be worser all around healers (Notice they aren't by far the worsest... The ONLY healer that can prevent damage can never be the worsest healer on a game, period)... It's worst. W-O-R-ST. Your English teacher must have hated you. Sages will be only the WORST single target healer, they will still be the best AoE Healer. Which makes sense, although I personally think WoW had it right moving towards "generalist" healers - because when classes have certain niches, well, you need those niches filled by the best classes. AKA Bring the Class, not the player. While preventing damage is good (slightly better in most cases then actually healing it), it's not like it's all the much or all that often enough to matter. ...IMO they should keep the best AOE to keep the balance now that Commandos/Scoundrels will be the prefered MT healers, but... Well, yeah, since now they have no burst healing to speak of, take 25% more damage then the other healers, there would be zero reason to bring one if they didn't have the AE healing niche. It's not the way I would have gone, but WoW had many years of experimentation before arriving where they did.
ragamer Posted April 6, 2012 Posted April 6, 2012 (edited) Well, yeah, since now they have no burst healing to speak of, take 25% more damage then the other healers, there would be zero reason to bring one if they didn't have the AE healing niche Sigh, another Sage whinner... ...No worries, the testers and real players will know how to keep on single target healing (Remember Force Armor is healing)... ...The difference is that now you will run out of Force if you try to keep that single target regime for long while also providing AOE healing... ...Hey! As the other 2 healers, go figure. Edited April 6, 2012 by ragamer
VenaliterFA Posted April 6, 2012 Posted April 6, 2012 Sigh, another Sage whinner... ...No worries, the testers and real players will know how to keep on single target healing (Remember Force Armor is healing)... Read my post again. Move your lips and repeat it out loud if it helps.
ragamer Posted April 6, 2012 Posted April 6, 2012 (edited) Read my post again. Move your lips and repeat it out loud if it helps. Maybe you should read your own post... ...This happens when you assume the person you talk to thinks on what he is talking about or has bothered to test the changes. While preventing damage is good coupled with: Well, yeah, since now they have no burst healing to speak of I will ellaborate a bit what you seem to ignore: - Deliverance. - Force Armor. - Rejuvenate. Now check how much this heals for on a target that's constanly receiving damage (ie a MT) and how it looks on an HPS graph (You will have to convert FA to effective healing), specially if you already have "Conveyance" up from the previous "burst". Now go around the other 2 healers and see the "burst healing" they are capable of... ...Ah, one last detail, do not forget to evaluate this on current 1.2 build, pls. Edited April 6, 2012 by ragamer
face_hindu Posted April 7, 2012 Posted April 7, 2012 I will ellaborate a bit what you seem to ignore: - Deliverance. - Force Armor. - Rejuvenate. Rejuvenate is burst healing? You don't know what you're talking about. You have no right to be such an arrogant jerk. You have made yourself look very stupid and bad. Gratz!
Ashyel Posted April 7, 2012 Posted April 7, 2012 On 1.2 Sages will be worser all around healers (Notice they aren't by far the worsest... The ONLY healer that can prevent damage can never be the worsest healer on a game, period)... ...IMO they should keep the best AOE to keep the balance now that Commandos/Scoundrels will be the prefered MT healers, but... ...ATM the gap between AOE capabilities is too high. Currently any Ops team that do not fill half their healing spots with Sages is crippling itself badly... The changes on 1.2 on AOE Healing for Commandos/Scoundrels are more or less cosmetical because you can set aside all numeric details but one... ...Coverage. You need HALF the ammount of Sages to cover the same ammount of ppl... Because a Sage can heal up to 8 persons, if the situation allows for it, it's really worthy for him to swap to "AOE Mode" and request their fellows to organize their formation to maximize its effects. Meanwhile... [i will talk about Scoundrel PoV which is the one I know 1st hand on Operations] ...As a Scoundrel I can provide a much higher HPS on 3 targets by using single target heals (and HoT) without any specific formation. So for me, swaping to AOE mode is not a net gain on overall HPS applied because I can only increase my coverage to 1 more person... ...I repeat I'm setting aside how much each person is healed for now, k? So I agree that Sages should keep the strongest AOE heal but... ...All healers should be able to swap to AOE mode and get a net gain on HPS applied (To justify the needs of adequate formation changes) and that cannot be achieved by individual output or smart healing... ...Coverage needs to be increased to 8 targets for all healers, as the Sage is able ATM. Then you can work on the specific numerics (and useability details) to be sure that Sages stay on top. EDIT: Just a detail... When I speak of global increase on Coverage to 8, the Commando Kolto Bomb "basic coverage" should stay at 3 with a higher Tier talent to increase it to 8... Because only dedicated healers can access full coverage powers at 31 points. Maybe for scoundrels they could have it so the more upper hand you have, the more players your Kolto Cloud targets. So: 1 Upper Hand: 4 2 Upper Hand: 6 3 Upper Hand: 8 That's similar to going into an AoE "mode" since you're consciously building it up rather than spending it on big Kolto Pack heals or free Emergency Medpacks.
todorovh Posted April 7, 2012 Posted April 7, 2012 With the large re-balancing of classes in 1.2, Why didn't bioware revisit aoe healing? I feel sge/sorc is far, far superior to the other 2 classes in regards to aoe heals. Both in absolute amounts, ease, and particularly number of people. It just seems like an opportunity to bring the classes more in line. personally, I think the people limit results in the biggest gap. Probably, sorcs/sages should be limited to 4 people, but I imagine they would be pretty angry at yet another nerf. What are other peoples thoughts? Reference: Sorc/Sage: Cast: 2 seconds, CD: 15 seconds; range: 30m, "fire-and-forget", heals 8 people for 2980 over 10 seconds(however, each tick can crit) BH/trooper: Cast: Instant, CD: 4 seconds, range: 30m, targeted aoe, heals 4 peoplefor ~600 (can be talented higher) Scoundrel/Op: Cast: Instant, CD: 12 seconds, range: 10m, targeted aoe, heals 4 people for ~1400 over 10 seconds I'm pretty sure the cooldown on kolto bomb, the commando aoe, is at least 6 seconds and that's with the pve set bonus, down from 8 or so ... need to doublecheck, but definitely more than 4 sec. Also Scoundrel AOE is not targeted, it hits people in 10m radius around the Soundrel. Tbh I don't get why commandos had a 3 man heal in the first place, it doesn't really make a lot of sense and as I've said countless times, Sages have the ONLY aoe viable in ops, how's that for balance Bioware, on top of that they get an interrupt, combat rez, shields on multiple people, force speed, extriction ... *** WERE YOU THINKING NERFING COMMANDOS !?! And a lazy nerf on top of that just slashing everything in half .. *** BIOWARE ?!?
Hologramx Posted April 8, 2012 Posted April 8, 2012 I have all 3 healer classes, 2 at 50 and the other one will reach 50 soon. If they nerf sage AoE healings, I'm 100% sure that I will stop talking and simple leave for D3. If they make the AoE healings of the other two in line with sages, I would be glad to play all 3 more consistently.
Battilea Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 Also Scoundrel AOE is not targeted, it hits people in 10m radius around the Soundrel. It is targeted and hits people in a 10m radius around the target. Easy to see for yourself, just target a friendly over 10m away from you and use it on him.
Awayy Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 All three healing trees need to be redesigned. I've seen better healing systems in first person shooters.
RuQu Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 I'm currently sick and very tired, so I'll try and keep this short. The math backing everything is already in other threads, so I'm going to save myself time by not repeating all of it here. Currently in 1.1.5 Commandos heal for 52% of Sages, and Scoundrels heal for 38%. Those values are in terms of HPS per person, corrected to as unbiased of a base as I could while considering cooldowns, durations, etc. See the Healer Request Compilation or the Math and Stock Response Compilation threads for more details. At 4 people in 1.2, Commandos will still be 52% of Sages until 4 people, but beyond that Sages will continue to scale.* Nothing else changes between these two. *Yes, they continue to scale, despite what Georg Zoeller said. When one ability does 1000 Total Healing if it hits 4 people and 2000 Total Healing if it hits 8 people, what do you call that? Scaling. He was either being deliberately obtuse or trolling us, or both. Despite what the patch notes say, the actual change in Scoundrel's Kolto Cloud is a 3.64% increase (iirc. 3.something). Since the previous cooldown was 12s but it lasted 15s and had no benefit to clipping, and the new cooldown is a hard 15s, the only change in terms of pure numbers is that 3.64% increase which means the new KC should heal for ~39.5% of Sage AoE on up to 4 targets, and Sages will continue to scale beyond that. In fact, Scoundrels are even more screwed by this imbalance than Commandos are. Due to the 6sec cooldown on KB, a Commando can toss one left and then the next one right. This would let them heal all 8 people in the raid for 26% of what a Sage can do. Since Sage and Scoundrel AoE share the same cooldown, it is absolutely impossible for a Scoundrel to ever heal 8 people with Kolto Cloud in the same time as a Sage. If more than 4 people take damage, they are forced to "pseudo-AoE" by spamming single-target heals at the group. Either all of the AoE abilities need to be 8-player, or they need to add smart-healing and remove the Scoundrel cooldown completely. The fact that it is a HoT means there is no benefit to clipping it, so it has an automatic 6s blackout period. They need to cast it twice, at 30 Energy each, to even hit 8 people, so it won't be possible to even attempt 100% uptime on 8 people for 12s. The fact that BW felt the need to nerf Commando healing so hard without even making a real attempt at AoE balance demonstrates inconceivable amounts of incompetence when it comes to balancing classes. These discrepancies are obvious to everyone, yet actively denied by GZ. It isn't even a matter of "they have the data and we don't." The imbalance of this AoE design is obvious to everyone who plays end-game for even one night.
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