Proof that the 5m aoe radius is not intentional by original design.

[Dvander]

I'm not spreading mis-information. I suggest you learn that a word in quotes is being said sarcastically.

 

And yes, let's compare.

 

Agent Orbital Strike (learned at 48)

Sorc Force Storm (learned at 34)

DfA/MV (learned at 10)

 

See, I can pick and choose parts of the skill to show how it needed to be changed too. Also, nobody cares what the animation on live is. It's got a new animation in 1.2, so it's current one is irrelevant.

 

It's in-line with the rest of the classes AoE skills, which is what the patch notes say is the reason behind the change.

 

Your sarcasm implied there existed an issue, which did not exist to begin with. All the players expected was that Mortar Volley animation be fixed from a point of view of cast time, not radius, or anything like that.

 

If my <insert imaginary class> AOE is learned at 50 does that mean it should be DOOM compared to other classes? What does level it is learned at have to do with balance, when it pretty much is classified as the same type. Classes learn CC at different levels, does that mean one should be 30s if learned early and the later ones 60s if learned late?

 

Smugglers get their ships at level 10, does that mean their ship should suck?

 

I tire of arguing with you.

 

The game is balanced for 50s anyway, if you don't know that, you haven't played many mmos. No one cares when you trained x skill at, the levelling curve doesn't matter.

 

And no, it's not in line with the rest of the classes' AOE skills, which is what I outlined earlier.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Dvander

[FrostyDroid]

That's the point. They are doing "clean up" on skills to make them more tightly fit their respective animations, unfortunately for Death From Above, that meant reducing its effective radius to 5 meters to match its animation.

 

There is absolutely no design motive for doing this proposed "tune" other than for correcting animations.

 

The "Point" is that DfA was horribly, horribly overpowered on a powertech tank. I know, because a powetech tank is my main. If you are incapable of comparing the performance of different classes objectively, carry on QQing, because just like the sorcs, there is nothing anyone can say that will change a biased opinion.

 

This is proven in the Trooper's version of Mortar Volley - the expanding red ring, which you do not initially see, tells you right there in bright flashing red, that this skill's intended range is greater than its smaller placeholder. It is designed to be 8 meters.

 

Actually, as someone who was a beta tester, I can tell you that "Mortar Volley" was NOT originally a Trooper skill. It was added mid 2011, when the decision was made to make the classes close mirrors. So it only exists to mirror DfA.

 

 

Animations get changed to fit powers, not the other way around.

Edited April 4, 2012 by FrostyDroid

[FrostyDroid]

If my <insert imaginary class> AOE is learned at 50 does that mean it should be DOOM compared to other classes?

 

It does if it enables a class to significantly outperform other classes between level 10 and 49.

 

What does level it is learned at have to do with balance, when it pretty much is classified as the same type. Classes learn CC at different levels, does that mean one should be 30s if learned early and the later ones 60s if learned late?

 

It matters because the game isn't just about endgame. If it was, all those hours of VO where a massive waste of money.

 

Smugglers get their ships at level 10, does that mean their ship should suck?

 

Ok, this proves you don't know your facts. Smugglers get their ship around level 16, the same as most other classes.

[PutinDoesJudo]

I love how people throw orbit strike into comparisons without even mentioning that it takes 3 seconds to activate.

 

How long does it take your DFA/MV to activate? Oh, that's right, instant.

 

How long does it take orbit strike to deliver it's damage? compare it to DFA/MV.

 

You cannot compare the AOE's based on cool downs, and cost alone. It's really apples and oranges. Orbital strike is like that thing you use to put on a door on voidstar, or a turret on alderaan. A trooper/BH are in the middle of a fight... "Hey guis, let me just herp derp some instant AOE at you". It's like chain lightning, which is being nerfed.

 

I simply will not mention force storm at all, because the damage is pitiful, the animation is painfully obvious and is an obvious interrupt. The only time I use it, is when there is a bomb planted on voidstar, which causes the enemy to instant focus me.

Edited April 4, 2012 by PutinDoesJudo

[Nezyrworks]

Originaly posted by Frostydroid:

Ok, this proves you don't know your facts. Smugglers get their ship around level 16, the same as most other classes.

 

Actualy you are spreading missinformation. Quest level requirement is level 12. And thus you can get the ship on level 12 (each class).

 

About MV/DFA - im realy dissapointed how Bioware deals with changes. I had seen some complains about the MV/DFA and it's deadly efficiency, but to be honest it have it's 45 sec cooldown for a reason.

 

All not-spamable AOE should have their radius of 8m, while spamable like "explosive surge" should be kept at 5m.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Nezyrworks

[Dvander]

It does if it enables a class to significantly outperform other classes between level 10 and 49.

 

Classes will get x skill when developers feel they NEED it. Not how that ability should fare in relation to other classes. I kill faster on my jump happy tank Jugg than on all my Bounty Hunter alts, with all their fancy tricks. No interrupts on channels, mad gap closer, and lots of unleashed burst. I don't for one second feel I under perform because I don't have Death From Above as it currently stands on live. And you know what, I have better single target dps too, but that's just what makes classes stand out from one another and makes the levelling enjoyable. By getting all these abilities at different levels. It doesn't mean that one of a particular type of ability should suck at 50 because you got it early.

 

Perhaps they should have kept its current radius - and honestly who even complained about it - and have them learn it a few levels later - I wouldn't honestly care either way, it's situational at best and just adds to the flavor of the class. It should still scale well at 50, because you know what, Trooper/BH doesn't get another AOE to replace it at the 1min mark.

 

It matters because the game isn't just about endgame. If it was, all those hours of VO where a massive waste of money.

 

That's a different can of worms, and honestly I didn't say it didn't? But the game isn't balanced for level 10s, 20s, or 30s, for that matter. It's balanced for 50s. That's all I said.

 

It doesn't need to be balanced for 10s, 20s, or 30s, because that's what groups are for. In a group, you are supposed to substitute whatever skills/abilities you got early that your other group mates haven't gotten yet, thus creating BALANCE. This all goes out the window at 50, so it would be nice if the abilities were competitive with each other, yes?.. Yes, BALANCE. Good word. Requires proper context.

 

Ok, this proves you don't know your facts. Smugglers get their ship around level 16, the same as most other classes.

 

This just proves how much Bioware LIED. There were podcasts at the beginning stating that Smugglers would get their ship right after leaving their starting planet. 'You would die, but you could explore all these other planets', they said. Bioware is good at that.

 

I'm shocked that Smugglers DON'T get their ship after leaving the starting planet, ahh the lies! It's too much! I'm actually sad right now.

[Dvander]

Actualy you are spreading missinformation. Quest level requirement is level 12. And thus you can get the ship on level 12 (each class).

 

About MV/DFA - im realy dissapointed how Bioware deals with changes. I had seen some complains about the MV/DFA and it's deadly efficiency, but to be honest it have it's 45 sec cooldown for a reason.

 

All not-spamable AOE should have their radius of 8m, while spamable like "explosive surge" should be kept at 5m.

 

Ah thank you, a voice of reason, and yes it does have its cooldown for a reason. It's 1min, though, btw for DFA/MV, not 45s.

 

I just completely wanted to re-iterate your last point, "All not-spamable AOE should have their radius of 8m, while spamable like "explosive surge" should be kept at 5m."

 

That is the way things currently are. All non-spammable AOE is on the 8m mark, and every spammable AOE is 5m. Why they felt they had to move away from that with Trooper/BH is not a good sign of things to come in this magical world we call balance.

 

Although to be fair they are just giving the Trooper a heavy gutting on every front in this patch. They have forgotten the 'standards' that the game currently employs.

[Parthis]

Dear OP; calm down. You haven't stumbled on a conspiracy and whatever original design you think you've found is irrelevant... MMOs change based on performance and monitoring.

 

The AoE range on DFA/MV was overpowered. I say this as someone who plays a PT tank and i'm also in the process of levelling my second Bounty Hunter (a lovely healing Merc). It. Was. Overpowered.

 

Whatever the reason BW state in their patch notes the change makes sense. Animations, regardless of live, will be changed too... and stop trying to compare it to other classes, it makes you appear foolish as not all clashes are created equally, comparing one tiny facet of their gameplay, ignoring the rest and claiming foul-play is stupid.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Parthis

[PutinDoesJudo]

I just completely wanted to re-iterate your last point, "All not-spamable AOE should have their radius of 8m, while spamable like "explosive surge" should be kept at 5m."

 

So you think instant cast non spamable AOE should have the same radius as those that take up to 3seconds to cast?

[dipstik]

Too bad they made this change but were too lazy to move enemies closer together, such that mobs designed to be volleyed now will have more stragglers.

 

I'm a vangaurd that just hit 50. This change is manageable, but more noticable than bioware prolly anticipated. A reduction of 120ish square meters. From 64*Pi to 25*pi. A 60% reduction. Considering mobs typically do not stand less than 2 meters away, that equals up to 10 fewer enemies dead at maximum density.

 

The area they took away is about twice the new area, is prolly the most shocking way to put it.

[Nezyrworks]

Dear OP; calm down. You haven't stumbled on a conspiracy and whatever original design you think you've found is irrelevant... MMOs change based on performance and monitoring.

 

The AoE range on DFA/MV was overpowered. I say this as someone who plays a PT tank and i'm also in the process of levelling my second Bounty Hunter (a lovely healing Merc). It. Was. Overpowered.

 

Whatever the reason BW state in their patch notes the change makes sense. Animations, regardless of live, will be changed too... and stop trying to compare it to other classes, it makes you appear foolish as not all clashes are created equally, comparing one tiny facet of their gameplay, ignoring the rest and claiming foul-play is stupid.

 

I dont see DFA/MV as overpowered, even after poping rakata stim+crit+relic... It still does less damage than my Pulse Cannon (without Pulse Generator stacks), and does ALOT less damage while i have my Pulse Generator 5 stacks. And pulse cannon is 18sec (15sec with talent boost).

 

Of course Mercenary/Commando will suffer more from this change, since Vanguard tend to be 4-10 meters from the target anyway (which makes pulse cannon more efficient).

 

Ah thank you, a voice of reason, and yes it does have its cooldown for a reason. It's 1min, though, btw for DFA/MV, not 45s.

 

I just completely wanted to re-iterate your last point, "All not-spamable AOE should have their radius of 8m, while spamable like "explosive surge" should be kept at 5m."

 

That is the way things currently are. All non-spammable AOE is on the 8m mark, and every spammable AOE is 5m. Why they felt they had to move away from that with Trooper/BH is not a good sign of things to come in this magical world we call balance.

 

Although to be fair they are just giving the Trooper a heavy gutting on every front in this patch. They have forgotten the 'standards' that the game currently employs.

 

Well my particular vanguard build gets some love (having 5 stacks of Pulse Generator, makes next Pulse Cannon slows all hited enemies by 70%), but other than that MV is dissapointing.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Nezyrworks

[Parthis]

I dont see DFA/MV as overpowered, even after poping rakata stim+crit+relic... It still does less damage than my Pulse Cannon (without Pulse Generator stacks), and does ALOT less damage while i have my Pulse Generator 5 stacks. And pulse cannon is 18sec (15sec with talent boost).

 

Of course Mercenary/Commando will suffer more from this change, since Vanguard tend to be 4-10 meters from the target anyway (which makes pulse cannon more efficient).

 

Sure, but Pulse Cannon/Flame Thrower requires close range, positioning and is very easy to lock out in PvP (melee interupts, knock backs, pushes, close stuns, etc). DFA/MV can be popped at 30m, is considerably harder to mitigate, has (on live) a much larger area and still does considerable damage. It may not do as much as another ability, but it's still enough to warrant the attention.

 

The most important point however is this; Pulse Cannon may do more damage, but it's not an either/or decision. A BH/Tr can open with DFA/MV safely at range, toss an Explosive Dart and then move in for Flame Thrower/Pulse Cannon. That is a silly amount of AoE damage, even in PvE.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Parthis

[Nezyrworks]

Sure, but Pulse Cannon/Flame Thrower requires close range, positioning and is very easy to lock out in PvP (melee interupts, knock backs, pushes, close stuns, etc). DFA/MV can be popped at 30m, is considerably harder to mitigate, has (on live) a much larger area and still does considerable damage. It may not do as much as another ability, but it's still enough to warrant the attention.

 

The most important point however is this; Pulse Cannon may do more damage, but it's not an either/or decision. A BH/Tr can open with DFA/MV safely at range, toss an Explosive Dart and then move in for Flame Thrower/Pulse Cannon. That is a silly amount of AoE damage, even in PvE.

 

Well sure i do a combination of MV+Explosive Surge+Neural Surge+sticky grenade+Pulse Cannon if i can, but the range of pulse cannon is enough to take 3 players in a cone, and devastate them. I had rarely been interupted while doing Pulse cannon, maybe because i can sense the situation, maybe...

 

MV is NOT harder to mitigate, becase Pulse Cannon is elemental based tech damge (not mitigated and NOT dodgable), while MV is just a kinetic damage (not affected by many vanguard elemenal damage/crit enforcing talents and high energy cell - in my case).

[Parthis]

MV is NOT harder to mitigate, becase Pulse Cannon is elemental based tech damge (not mitigated and NOT dodgable), while MV is just a kinetic damage (not affected by many vanguard elemenal damage/crit enforcing talents and high energy cell - in my case).

 

Terminology clash; I didn't mean mitigate in a damage reduction sense, more in a "counter against".

 

It's easier to lock out/counter a channel in melee range with positional elements ("Run behind them!", knockback, interrupt (assuming not spec'd for 1.2's immunity), local stun, force push, etc) than it is to lock out/counter a large area of effect ability invoked at 30 meters.

[Glzmo]

well with the AOE range reduction on DFA/mortar volley in conjunction with the changed knockback effect, DFA now knocks PvE mobs outside the AOE radius. brilliant design choice

It's not the first time they did this, either. When they nerfed the Consular's standard force attack range from 15 to 10 meters (because they felt Shadows needed a range decrease - instead of giving them a -5 decrease when training Shadow, they went and gimped it for low-level non-advanced class Consulars, too, which is plainly annoying when levelling up), the knockback of Force Wave started knocking things out of range as well, which it still does to this day, even though it was clearly designed to knock them just into the range originally.

 

These developers don't seem to think about what impact the changes make in conjunction to other skills in the game. Having such a small AOE radius on Mortar Volley will just feel very awkward, especially since the "free targeting" of the skill is awkward and unprecise to begin with.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Glzmo

[Nezyrworks]

Terminology clash; I didn't mean mitigate in a damage reduction sense, more in a "counter against".

 

It's easier to lock out/counter a channel in melee range with positional elements ("Run behind them!", knockback, interrupt (assuming not spec'd for 1.2's immunity), local stun, force push, etc) than it is to lock out/counter a large area of effect ability invoked at 30 meters.

 

Agree, but as i said before it will hurt more already nerfed commando than vanguard (especialy tactic + HEC).

 

Even then i think it's a bad design concept to nerf it, while the ability is not that much powerful on it's own. In most scenarios it will lower the AOE tanking abilites of a Vangauard, and makes another weaker ability for Gunner/Assault commando.

[swango]

Your argument is invalid. If you look at the trooper animation closely, the red ring shows 5 meters, not 8. The blue circle is more like 3 meters. If you use MV in live right now, you'll notice that it reaches well beyond the red ring (8 meters) while Hail of Bolts reaches just to the red ring (5 meters).

 

So what you're saying is that they originally intended all the AoEs to fit within the red ring. Hence by changing MV to 5 meters, they are fixing the bug. Ironically, you've actually provided proof that 5 meters was the original design.

Edited April 4, 2012 by swango

[Nuzt]

They will do it in order to avoid fixing the animation, just as they suggested its easier for them to nerf healing across the board rather then actually put time into improving content by making it more difficult.

 

They have proven time and again that they will take the easy way out everytime regardless of what effect it has on the game and players, they do not care what we think as long as they don't have to put extra effort in.

 

Just accept that thats the way it is and either suck it up and embrace the changes or cancel your sub.

 

Is it the answer your looking for ? Probably not

Does it make what their doing right ? Definately not

Is it going to change in the near future ? Doubtful

 

 

I personally haven't cancel'd yet but if things are as bad as they look on paper when 1.2 goes live (and don't kid yourself the changes are going to happen) then I will probably unsub and just shake my head in disgust.

[Onager]

That's because Mortar Volley has already knocked everyone out of position by the time you use Hail of Bolts. You need much better placement and estimation to try hitting everyone than when you started with Mortar Volley.

 

If anything, the radius of Mortar Volley should be left as is, and Hail of Bolts increased by 1m or so. But that's not gonna happen.

 

I get that Arsenal/Gunnery was a skilless spec before, and you're used to it. They're raising the skill floor.

 

As a sage I can predict where mobs are getting thrown and place my AoEs so that they hit only unmezzed mobs with optimal uptime whilst accurately predicting where they'll land when they get knocked down.

 

L2P.

[illgot]

What's easier, changing a number or fixing an animation?