So after leveling a Scoundrel and Op to 50... my thoughts on the state of the class

[hulkweazel]

I first leveled up an Op to 50, loved it enough to do it again Republic side. I've done full medicine spec, full concealment, and hybrid med/concealment. Never tried Lethality though I may give it a shot after 1.2.

 

- I don't think this class is broken. I think there are a LOT of poor design choices by the devs, and I honestly don't think they really playtested a lot of things (ie. two broken talents at launch, set bonuses that are relatively useless, alacrity on healing equipment, to name a few) but despite this, for the most part, the class is okay. It is far and away better than what Druids suffered in vanilla WoW.

 

- Concealment Ops that did well pre-1.2 will probably still do well post-1.2. Concealment Ops that did not do well pre 1-2 will still struggle, maybe even moreso. I can't say for certain about the changes because I haven't tested it outmyself. However, the changes still boggle my mind. I'm really not sure what they were trying to do with the changes, it's all over the place.

 

What I think hurts the most is the 7.5 cooldown on HS and 12 sec cooldown on BS. After unstealthing, it takes 5 seconds to restealth (Outside of CS or Infiltration). Concealment Ops like to BS, finish off target, and then stealth, going after next target. 7.5 sec cooldown means there's a 2.5 second additional wait. This is a problem, as it makes killing much slower - approx. 50% increase in time to HS. In my opinion the cooldown should be 5 or 6 seconds.

 

- People are forgetting that the fix to Cover will help tremendously. If we get immobilized by a Sorc or Sniper's knockback we no longer have to just stand there looking like an idiot, we can now use that time to fire off Explosive Probe.

 

- As for a gap closer, the main problem isn't that, actually. The main problem is Huttball. Take Huttball out of the equation and half the complaints will be gone. If Ops perform well in all WZs except one, then I'm fine with that. However, Huttball is the predominant WZ on Imp side. Thankfully, this will change 1.2. As I leveled up my Scoundrel, I rarely ever got Huttball, which made it a LOT easier.

 

- More on the gap closer... I believe what BW's intentions were was to have Ops have some ranged abilities, as well as a few passive speed increases to compensate for a lack of a gap closer. I'm fine with this, IF it were implemented better. Right now, we get a 15% passive combat speed increase, a 50% increase after CS, a 30% increase after Debilitate, and a 20% increase after Evasion, from various different talents. The 50% increase after CS is nice, but it's designed more of a getaway than a gap closer, though in rare instances it can be used as such. The 30% increase after Debilitate doesn't make much sense to me. You can only use it within 4m of a target, and it stuns them, meaning you generally don't need the speed increase. I have never talented into Evasive Imperative, since 20% speed increase for 3 seconds every minute (While using up our self cleanser) doesn't seem very appealing, and also, from what I've heard, it doesn't stack with Infiltrate.

 

What needs to be done is Evasive Imperative and Slip Away need to be changed. Put the movement speed increase on Sever Tendon instead, for example, would be much, much more appealing and effective. Give the speed increase on Evasion AND Shield probe would be another change. I don't think either change would be overpowering.

 

- Healing is fine, for the most part. I never have a problem with mana regeneration, even in healing intensive moments, and the main problems I have with the healing tree are being addressed in 1.2 (RN being frontloaded, keeping TA up for emergencies). Time will tell if the easier TA management will make Infusion a little more worth using. If I did have one complaint, it's that the healing rotation is too simple. KP x2, KI, SP, keep Stim Boost up, repeat. Many times, it's just alternating between KI and SP.

 

- Our biggest issue, IMO, is survivability. CS and Shield Probe are not good enough. Flash Bang is inconsistent (Doesn't work if opponent has full resolve or is being attacked). Evasion is useless since it only works against white damage. A change not often talked about is Countermeasures, possibly making it work somewhat in PvP. Medicine Op survivability is greatly exaggerated. Yes, we can roll HOTs and spam SPs under 30% hp, but a good player/team will focus fire when you're under 30% and/or stunlock you.

 

- DPS Operatives still need some form of utility in PvE. Right now, no one wants a DPS Op since we are a melee class with not much survivability or gap closer. Only thing we have going is stealth res, but DPS assassins can do that as well. One proposed addition is for our attacks to add armor debuff on the target, which I think that alone will do wonders for an Op to be useful. Have Acid Blade and Weakening Blast apply a small armor debuff to the target, for example

 

- To sum up, I think if the following changes should be made to the class:

 

1) Move around the speed increase talents to more relevant abilities/instances

2) Change the set bonus on our gear to affect more relevant abilities

3) Reduce the cost of Overload Shot slightly to offset the Backstab nerf, and add a talent to Lethality to give it a chance to proc TA (Limit once every 10 seconds)

4) Reduce the cooldown on HS to 6 seconds

5) Move a few abilities so that they are learned at a lower level. More specifically, Hidden Strike and Shield Probe

6) Have Countermeasures decrease damage from players by 25% during its duration.

7) Acid Blade and Weakening Blast now provide an additional armor debuff to the target

 

These are all very minor changes, but I think they will do wonders to making the class up to par.

[HanfordBlows]

I agree with 99% of what you detailed in your post. Very well thought out talent modifications - many of which I have often wished for myself.

 

The two abilities I think would be most attractive to the class while still being balanced and fair would be extending the Sever Tendon cooldown from 10 seconds to 15 seconds, but adding a 30m range and 3 second 70% speed boost. Gap closer solved.

 

Secondly would be to add a "mortal strike" type debuff to a target that reduces heals done to target by significant percentage (~50%). This would be a great way to soft counter your healer/jugg combo that spams Taunt and shields.

Edited April 3, 2012 by HanfordBlows

[Stooge]

...but adding a 30m range and 3 second 70% speed boost. Gap closer solved.

 

...nevermind, i reread it and understand it better, sorry.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Stooge

[HanfordBlows]

The only thing about this is we are still less that 50% of what a SI can do.

 

We do need a gap closer on Op badly, and at this point anything is better than nothing, but I'd like to see something on par with what everyone else has.

 

I don't feel the need to be equal or have the same abilities as everyone else. The Sever Tendon change obviously still has its difficulties in the Pit... But I think it's kind of foolish to balance classes around one Warzone. I'm comfortable with locking down mid or controlling a platform in huttball - having a role and playing it well is good enough for me, rather than being able to teleport endlessly around the map like a jugg for example.

[hulkweazel]

I agree with 99% of what you detailed in your post. Very well thought out talent modifications - many of which I have often wished for myself.

 

The two abilities I think would be most attractive to the class while still being balanced and fair would be extending the Sever Tendon cooldown from 10 seconds to 15 seconds, but adding a 30m range and 3 second 70% speed boost. Gap closer solved.

 

Secondly would be to add a "mortal strike" type debuff to a target that reduces heals done to target by significant percentage (~50%). This would be a great way to soft counter your healer/jugg combo that spams Taunt and shields.

Your Sever Tendon suggestion feels way too powerful. It's basically a better Force Speed (30 sec cooldown, 2 second +50% speed) that only requires an enemy target and talents. As I said in my post, Ops don't get "gap closers", just smaller speed increases at a more frequent rate. If the Slip Away movement speed is simply moved to Tendon Blast, (Possibly increasing cooldown and range on it as well) I think that alone is fine.

 

Reducing heals done on a target is a good idea. It will definitely make DPS Ops stronger in group/ranked PvP, though it will have little effect on PvE.

[HanfordBlows]

Your Sever Tendon suggestion feels way too powerful. It's basically a better Force Speed (30 sec cooldown, 2 second +50% speed) that only requires an enemy target and talents. As I said in my post, Ops don't get "gap closers", just smaller speed increases at a more frequent rate. If the Slip Away movement speed is simply moved to Tendon Blast, (Possibly increasing cooldown and range on it as well) I think that alone is fine.

 

Reducing heals done on a target is a good idea. It will definitely make DPS Ops stronger in group/ranked PvP, though it will have little effect on PvE.

 

Tweak the actual number values however makes sense from a balance standpoint. I am not dead set on the numbers I casually threw out there - just meant as a conversation starter. My suggestion would only be available if talented, thus only concealment ops would receive this bonus. The points could go in same place they do now on tier 4 (if I remember correctly).

 

In regards to the mortal strike debuff, this was meant as a way to keep the pvp'ers happy. Something needs to be done about damage rotations, as far too often you are left basically auto attacking or using some other useless ability to give the perception you're actually applying pressure. I think adding a talent allowing a 3rd TA would solve much of this as it would give you the ability to use lacerate more often as filler until Backstabbing and Shiv are off cooldown... Obviously with any tweaks like this (being able to strike more often) could require a slight nerf in damage to that particular ability.

 

Just ideas being tossed around here... I love my Operative, and am actually quite successful in most PvP encounters, however there is something definitely wrong with the class, it doesnt have a great flow/rotation - its missing something to make it feel complete.

[Gaucho]

We need a Gap Closer

 

the things that you listed requires balancing and massive testing.

 

Also the operative fails to meet the demands on the warzones, not only huttball.

 

 

After reading your post, its clear to me that you arent expecting to be in a 8v8 rated.

[Trauglodyte]

People complain about the lack of a gap closer way too much. As you said, the only place where it is a problem is in Huttball. And there, we have the same problems as an Merc/Commando when they get knocked down. Would I love to have something like Blizz's reverse Grapple Gun (he actually pulls himself TO the target) but that would be weird and not very Agent like.

 

The only things that I would add are:

 

FIX

- When 10s is up, if you have a stack of 2 TA/UH, it is reduced to 1 instead of losing both (this REALLY pisses me off, especially when I get knocked down in Huttball)

 

GENERAL

- Increased the range of Flash Grenade/Flash Bang to 30m base (remove from Sniper/Gunslinger base ability)

- TA/UH now grants a +5% run speed bonus per

- Remove the "must be out of combat" requirement for Sleep Dart/Tranquilizer (and the Assassin/Shadow equivalents)

 

MEDICINE/SAW BONES

- Remove Precision Instruments/Anatomy Lesson

- Move Sedatives to Tier 1 (replaces Precision Instruments/Anatomy Lessons)

- Add Vanish/Quick Getaway to Tier 3

 

CONCEALMENT/SCRAPPER

- Add "In addition, Hidden Strike/Shoot First has a 50%/100% chance to grant immunity to knock back and movement impairing effects for 4 seconds" to Concealed Attacks/Element Of Surprise

 

LETHALITY/DIRTY FIGHTING

- Lethality/No Holds Barred reduces the energy cost of Corrosive Dart/Vital Shot by 1/2/3

- Add Sever Tendon/Tendon Blast to Slip Away/Dirty Escape (and rename the talent to suit the change)

- In addition to its current effect, Lethal Injectors/Open Wound increase the duration of Acid Blade/Flachette Round by 2s (would 4 be pushing it?)

- Add in a TA/UH generator to Lingering Toxins/Nice Try (50%/100% might be too much to ask for, but perhaps not with a cool down of 20s)

 

The base change to the CC grenade is really a qualit of life change to compensate to the fact that our stun is 4m range. As a Lethality Op, if I can't get back into stealth, being to lock down someone at range until I can close is HUGE. Especially considering that we don't have access to the reduced cool down on Cloaking Screen.

 

The talent changes are really just a slight reshuffling to offer a small semblance of use for the lower two tiers of Medicine/Saw Bones to those not specced fully in the trees. The Conc addition is really the anti-gap closer needed for the class and the Lethality changes are really just soaking up the losses from Medicine, fixing an oversight (possible oversight) in the Backstab change, and adding a slight boost to Lethality/Dirty Fighting when generating TA/UH is difficult (at times).

Edited April 4, 2012 by Trauglodyte

[Gaucho]

People complain about the lack of a gap closer way too much. As you said, the only place where it is a problem is in Huttball. And there, we have the same problems as an Merc/Commando when they get knocked down. Would I love to have something like Blizz's reverse Grapple Gun (he actually pulls himself TO the target) but that would be weird and not very Agent like.

 

The only things that I would add are:

 

FIX

- When 10s is up, if you have a stack of 2 TA/UH, it is reduced to 1 instead of losing both (this REALLY pisses me off, especially when I get knocked down in Huttball)

 

GENERAL

- Increased the range of Flash Grenade/Flash Bang to 30m base (remove from Sniper/Gunslinger base ability)

- TA/UH now grants a +5% run speed bonus per

- Remove the "must be out of combat" requirement for Sleep Dart/Tranquilizer (and the Assassin/Shadow equivalents)

 

MEDICINE/SAW BONES

- Remove Precision Instruments/Anatomy Lesson

- Move Sedatives to Tier 1 (replaces Precision Instruments/Anatomy Lessons)

- Add Vanish/Quick Getaway to Tier 3

 

CONCEALMENT/SCRAPPER

- Add "In addition, Hidden Strike/Shoot First has a 50%/100% chance to grant immunity to knock back and movement impairing effects for 4 seconds" to Concealed Attacks/Element Of Surprise

 

LETHALITY/DIRTY FIGHTING

- Lethality/No Holds Barred reduces the energy cost of Corrosive Dart/Vital Shot by 1/2/3

- Add Sever Tendon/Tendon Blast to Slip Away/Dirty Escape (and rename the talent to suit the change)

- In addition to its current effect, Lethal Injectors/Open Wound increase the duration of Acid Blade/Flachette Round by 2s (would 4 be pushing it?)

- Add in a TA/UH generator to Lingering Toxins/Nice Try (50%/100% might be too much to ask for, but perhaps not with a cool down of 20s)

 

The base change to the CC grenade is really a qualit of life change to compensate to the fact that our stun is 4m range. As a Lethality Op, if I can't get back into stealth, being to lock down someone at range until I can close is HUGE. Especially considering that we don't have access to the reduced cool down on Cloaking Screen.

 

The talent changes are really just a slight reshuffling to offer a small semblance of use for the lower two tiers of Medicine/Saw Bones to those not specced fully in the trees. The Conc addition is really the anti-gap closer needed for the class and the Lethality changes are really just soaking up the losses from Medicine, fixing an oversight (possible oversight) in the Backstab change, and adding a slight boost to Lethality/Dirty Fighting when generating TA/UH is difficult (at times).

 

Again, a wall of changes that requires massive testing and re-balancing.

 

This thread is about getting a gap closer that every 3/4 classes have available in both ACs or a single AC.

 

YOu are putting WAY too much thinking into it.

 

 

GAP CLOSER is the answer.

[HanfordBlows]

We need a Gap Closer

 

the things that you listed requires balancing and massive testing.

 

Also the operative fails to meet the demands on the warzones, not only huttball.

 

 

After reading your post, its clear to me that you arent expecting to be in a 8v8 rated.

 

Totally! Your opinion of my suggestion, and what BioWare does with their game (which I have zero control of) will totally affect my decision to participate in rated WZs.

 

I'm just going to keep playing the game... You have fun trolling. Clown.

[hulkweazel]

We need a Gap Closer

 

the things that you listed requires balancing and massive testing.

 

Also the operative fails to meet the demands on the warzones, not only huttball.

 

 

After reading your post, its clear to me that you arent expecting to be in a 8v8 rated.

...and just giving an Op a gap closer also requires balancing and massive testing as well... Giving a class with that much front end burst a gap closer is extremely dangerous.

 

I highly doubt you actually read my thread though as I am acknowledging quite a few shortcomings that Ops have which you conveniently ignore.

Edited April 4, 2012 by hulkweazel

[Kognos]

IMHO for conceal:

 

Gap Closer or increased survivability (some oh crap buttons to hit while we're rooted/knocked back that are actually worthwhile, the increased survivability option might make op healers overpowered though if not talented abilities)

 

Revert Acid blade to 50% armor pen (the reports of our dps from test, surge nerf, 50's only wz's and no more buff stacking make this feasible)

 

Keep Backstab at 9sec or increase acid blade dot damage by 33% and the buff duration by 33% (Most of our other filler abilities are huge energy sinks and the loss to acid blade applications compounds the cd nerf)

 

Keep the 7.5 second cd on Hidden Strike, vanishing to double tap was a crutch and personally I only ever used it on people that needed to die asap to turn the tide in a game or people I disliked. (Now that it can't be used twice in rapid succession, maybe put back some of the 20% damage that was taken away since most of that crying was pre-surge nerf.)

 

If the corrosive dart animation lag isn't fixed on test, fix it. It's an instant cast with a ~1.5 second cast time as it is.

[astrolite]

It truly baffles me when people say a melee class does not need a gap closer. You will quickly realize you need one when you get engaged by a competent ranged person out of stealth. They will not stand there and wait for you to get to them. They will not recklessly follow you around a pillar - they will keep a manageable distance all the while keeping you in combat and out of stealth. You live by cloaking screen or simply by not engaging in fights where others are around (go teamplay!).

[Trauglodyte]

Again, a wall of changes that requires massive testing and re-balancing.

 

This thread is about getting a gap closer that every 3/4 classes have available in both ACs or a single AC.

 

YOu are putting WAY too much thinking into it.

 

 

GAP CLOSER is the answer.

 

You keep harping on the gap closer like 1) that is totally going to fix the game from all perspectives (PvE/PvP of all variations) and 2) will automatically make the Op/Scoundrel completely viable in rated play. What do Mercs/Commandos get to say about their lack of an interrupt and gap closer?

 

Have you even played all three specs of the Op? Do you know what the entirety of the game play is across flashpoints, operations, etc? Outside of being out of range of your target in PvP only, what does your desire for a gap closer achieve?

[astrolite]

...and just giving an Op a gap closer also requires balancing and massive testing as well... Giving a class with that much front end burst a gap closer is extremely dangerous.

 

Except that controlled burst is better for PvP. We'd be far better off having built-up burst since we can time it with interrupts and CC and having an execute. If you're trying to blow up healers - guarded at that, timing means a lot.

 

 

Edit: Basically I am saying Assassins are better. Period. We NEED more in our toolset to stand out.

Edited April 4, 2012 by astrolite

[astrolite]

What do Mercs/Commandos get to say about their lack of an interrupt and gap closer?

 

Yes, nitpicking here. If Merc/Commando are at a huge disadvantage because of lacking a gap closer (not sure why this would be useful to them) or interrupts, then I hope they are making these suggestions on their class forums too. Gap closer for melee is not a matter of haves and have nots... it is integral to melee class design.

 

The alternative is to make suggestions to remove CC/snares from ranged classes since it effects operatives due to lack of a gap closer. Then gap closers would be over the top for those classes that have them.

[Akento]

You keep harping on the gap closer like 1) that is totally going to fix the game from all perspectives (PvE/PvP of all variations) and 2) will automatically make the Op/Scoundrel completely viable in rated play. What do Mercs/Commandos get to say about their lack of an interrupt and gap closer?

 

Have you even played all three specs of the Op? Do you know what the entirety of the game play is across flashpoints, operations, etc? Outside of being out of range of your target in PvP only, what does your desire for a gap closer achieve?

 

Well... for one, it achieves getting to our targets faster... And why would commandos or mercs need a gap closer? They aren't melee. I think the problem is, almost every class (Some that have more survivability than us and I mean waaayyyyy more survivability than us) get a gap closer, and they get knock backs. We literally have to work harder for the same results. Where as, other classes do not. If an Operative doesn't put acid blade on all of their hidden strikes/back stabs, then we are pretty much screwed.

 

Granted it's amazing, but the fact we even need to press an extra button for that is ridiculous. Then the only way we can even use it is by being behind our opponent. That's to say, we don't get pushed back or leaped on before we get there. The only thing we really have going for us is the stealth factor, and we can pop a heal if need be, but that never goes well in a middle of a fight.

 

We can also vanish, which is amazing! But, i've noticed, i use it more as an escape than an offensive manuever. And half the time, it doesn't even help lol.

[Kognos]

A gap closer would be great but it's not our only issue. As it stands a decently geared/skilled player can usually stand and turret, they don't need to kite. And we need more than a gap closer to fix pve discrepancies.

 

* Edit Traug beat me to it.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Kognos

[Kognos]

Well... for one, it achieves getting to our targets faster... And why would commandos or mercs need a gap closer? They aren't melee. I think the problem is, almost every class (Some that have more survivability than us and I mean waaayyyyy more survivability than us) get a gap closer, and they get knock backs. We literally have to work harder for the same results. Where as, other classes do not. If an Operative doesn't put acid blade on all of their hidden strikes/back stabs, then we are pretty much screwed.

 

Granted it's amazing, but the fact we even need to press an extra button for that is ridiculous. Then the only way we can even use it is by being behind our opponent. That's to say, we don't get pushed back or leaped on before we get there. The only thing we really have going for us is the stealth factor, and we can pop a heal if need be, but that never goes well in a middle of a fight.

 

We can also vanish, which is amazing! But, i've noticed, i use it more as an escape than an offensive manuever. And half the time, it doesn't even help lol.

 

I always thought Acid Blade should be passive like mercs' gas cylinders. Being able to drop a heal at the right time has won matches for me though mostly huttball and really that utility is about the only reason I've stuck out the past nerfs.

 

Try to plan your vanishes enough in advance to drop a dispell first. I would say doing that has doubled my chances of escaping.

[Akento]

I always thought Acid Blade should be passive like mercs' gas cylinders. Being able to drop a heal at the right time has won matches for me though mostly huttball and really that utility is about the only reason I've stuck out the past nerfs.

 

Try to plan your vanishes enough in advance to drop a dispell first. I would say doing that has doubled my chances of escaping.

 

Yeah, i just never think fast enough, lol it's kinda funny, i'll vanish and the dots get me. But although i've been saved a couple times by a well planned heal, for the most part i've been killed and probably laughed at for it. I love your idea of acid blade. It would be alot better.

[hulkweazel]

It truly baffles me when people say a melee class does not need a gap closer. You will quickly realize you need one when you get engaged by a competent ranged person out of stealth. They will not stand there and wait for you to get to them. They will not recklessly follow you around a pillar - they will keep a manageable distance all the while keeping you in combat and out of stealth. You live by cloaking screen or simply by not engaging in fights where others are around (go teamplay!).

It truly baffles me when people have such tunnel vision that if something doesn't fit what they want, they just completely disregard it.

 

Operatives have ranged abilities. Operatives also have movement speed increases. If someone is moving at 100% speed and you are moving towards them at 130% speed, are you not closing the gap on them? Do you not have abilities that read "10m" and "30m" on them?

 

My proposition fixes the so-called "gap closer" issue, and it also fixes many of the other issues with the class as well (That are really just as important, if not more so), in a way that is fair, not overpowering, and simple enough that BW might actually implement. Just because it isn't Shadowstep or Force Speed doesn't make it wrong.

[Superfreack]

Biggest issue I have found is Burst healing. Everything else is managable.

[hulkweazel]

Biggest issue I have found is Burst healing. Everything else is managable.

I agree. Burst healing is almost impossible if you don't have any TA. Time will tell if the changes to TA will make it a lot more manageable.

[Kognos]

It truly baffles me when people have such tunnel vision that if something doesn't fit what they want, they just completely disregard it.

 

Operatives have ranged abilities. Operatives also have movement speed increases. If someone is moving at 100% speed and you are moving towards them at 130% speed, are you not closing the gap on them? Do you not have abilities that read "10m" and "30m" on them?

 

My proposition fixes the so-called "gap closer" issue, and it also fixes many of the other issues with the class as well (That are really just as important, if not more so), in a way that is fair, not overpowering, and simple enough that BW might actually implement. Just because it isn't Shadowstep or Force Speed doesn't make it wrong.

 

I agree with you about the tunnel vision but I also see the other side. So many people, myself included think mainly in terms of huttball and envy charges, pulls or being able to bypass hazards with defensive cooldowns. That and the sheer number of roots and snares, many of which are just blended in with other abilities, an immediate closer would be nice while damage fixes would be awesome. Even a longer range on our snare would be a decent step in the right direction.

 

It's all just dreaming anyway, it's pretty much denial if we think BW wants any kind of viability for the class at the moment. They obviously intend for it to fade away until canceled subs stop putting operatives as their main reason for quitting. Heck, people just need to complete chapter 2 and our buff isn't even needed anymore. We're not going to have much of a place in the game as far as I can tell. I intend to tough it out until I find I'm a liability in pve/pvp, then reroll until a better game comes along.

 

The mind tricks seem to be meant for everyone but us. We're within 5% of a marauder's dps as long as we use biochem consumables and the marauder doesn't =) Teams of operatives stunlocking... The other 90-95% whatever the other classes make up of the game just drink the kool aid, smile and bask in Georg parroting their interpretation of how the class works back at them.

[CaptainInsano]

Question: does the 15% speed increase talent actually work outside of stealth?