Valor<50 -- Why PvP Prior to 1.2?

[namelless]

It looks the same.

 

Well there goes my reason, they could have atleast made it look like garbage, it is a recruit's set afterall.

 

Then again, Scoundrel champ gear looks like crap aswell

[goulet]

i think part of the question is how close to 50 are you. If you're close and can get there and get champion gear, it saves you money post 1.2 as you wont have to buy it. At teh same time you can save your warzone/merc coms till youre capped.

 

as for the whole Bm will beat a champ who will beat a centurion thing. Bm gear does not=i win.While the stat differential is noticeable between champ and bm it isn't a huge buff. 2 equally skilled players fighting when one is in bm and one is in champ may result in the BM winning, but its not par for the course. My operative is full champ (this isn't about them being op) and there are other operatives of the same spec with better gear who a: i can beat, b: consistently get more medals then the vast majority of them (and im not playing focusing on medal stacking).

[Varicite]

If Centurion and Champion gear were available to get after the patch, you would be right. However it will not be available. So if it were buffed to be between recruit and BM bonuses, those that own the off-market gear would be grandfathered in, but those newcomers would not be able to get it. My OP is not moot. The scorned pre-BM players would not lose their progress and the pre-BM gear would not negate recruit armor because the pre-BM armors won't be available after the patch.

 

As far as the developer's amount of effort, it would be 10 to 30 minutes max... Subtract the respective bonuses of recruit gear from BM gear and divide the difference by 3 to get x. Then set the Centurion stats to be recruit plus x, and Champion to be recruit plus 2x. Done. I've had to do similar things to others and my code many times back in the day. There is zero debugging or balancing effort needed because you are guaranteed to be between your min and max values. Yay, everyone's effort has now been respected! That is all that I would like. Do any of those in the same boat as me disagree?

 

Or even better, since BM gear will now take less effort to get, offer us the choice of trading in our pre-BM armor for the equivalent Warzone commendations value so that we can be 25%-50% into BM gear.

 

I don't think I'm following your logic.

 

If you already have the Centurion/Champion gear, why does it matter if it's not obtainable in the future? You already have it.

 

In the future, it's just going to be Recruit gear; I guess I don't see how you are "losing progress", because if the Recruit gear is an upgrade then you would still be gaining stats in the long run.

 

If it's a downgrade, I suppose I could see your point, but then you would just be able to mix the champ pieces you have w/ Recruit pieces for the slots you don't have yet and still be ahead of the curve, wouldn't you?

 

The only thing that is changing (at your level of gear progression) is that instead of grinding BM bags for tokens now, you can just farm WZ commendations and get pieces more reliably, no?

 

Edit: Or is the complaint that after having grinded out 50 Valor, you're going to be at the "same level" as everyone in Recruit gear, even though they may not be 50 Valor yet?

 

That differentiation is going away entirely in 1.2, so while I can understand feeling a little upset that the rules are changing, they're changing for everyone and a lot of people even w/ BM gear (like me) still won't be getting upgraded mods because we destroyed the terrible mods that BW told us to replace.

 

This has happened a few times already, and I imagine it may happen a few more times in the future before BW really nails down a system that they feel "works" for PvP gearing.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Varicite

[Graushwein]

I don't think I'm following your logic.

If you already have the Centurion/Champion gear, why does it matter if it's not obtainable in the future? You already have it.

The question I was answering was, "Why would people get Recruit gear if Champion gear was better?" My answer is people wouldn't because it won't be available post-patch.

 

In the future, it's just going to be Recruit gear; I guess I don't see how you are "losing progress", because if the Recruit gear is an upgrade then you would still be gaining stats in the long run.

Recruit gear won't be an upgrade, more like equal to Champ gear. People with Champ gear may not be losing much ground on those in BM gear, but they are certainly losing 100% of the gear/bonuses lead they had against those in Centurion and PvE gear. So yes, we are losing that progress and effort. See my previous post where I used an iron-man competition as a metaphor for Champ/Cent predicament.

 

Edit: Or is the complaint that after having grinded out 50 Valor, you're going to be at the "same level" as everyone in Recruit gear, even though they may not be 50 Valor yet?

That is a significant factor.

 

That differentiation is going away entirely in 1.2, so while I can understand feeling a little upset that the rules are changing, they're changing for everyone and a lot of people even w/ BM gear (like me) still won't be getting upgraded mods because we destroyed the terrible mods that BW told us to replace.

Can you please link me to where this is detailed? I would like to understand. Does BM gear get the new Expertise bonuses?

[hulkweazel]

I don't think I'm following your logic.

 

If you already have the Centurion/Champion gear, why does it matter if it's not obtainable in the future? You already have it.

 

In the future, it's just going to be Recruit gear; I guess I don't see how you are "losing progress", because if the Recruit gear is an upgrade then you would still be gaining stats in the long run.

 

If it's a downgrade, I suppose I could see your point, but then you would just be able to mix the champ pieces you have w/ Recruit pieces for the slots you don't have yet and still be ahead of the curve, wouldn't you?

 

The only thing that is changing (at your level of gear progression) is that instead of grinding BM bags for tokens now, you can just farm WZ commendations and get pieces more reliably, no?

 

Edit: Or is the complaint that after having grinded out 50 Valor, you're going to be at the "same level" as everyone in Recruit gear, even though they may not be 50 Valor yet?

 

That differentiation is going away entirely in 1.2, so while I can understand feeling a little upset that the rules are changing, they're changing for everyone and a lot of people even w/ BM gear (like me) still won't be getting upgraded mods because we destroyed the terrible mods that BW told us to replace.

 

This has happened a few times already, and I imagine it may happen a few more times in the future before BW really nails down a system that they feel "works" for PvP gearing.

You don't get it. If we aren't BMs, then we can only go for Cent/Champ gear, which is useless in 1.2. There are no rewards worth going for right now once you max out Comms.

 

Yes, you can PvP for fun, but it's not really fun when you are outgeared and can't perform at the same level as everyone else, and can't even get gear that will help you out. If you are a new 50, there is no point in PvPing, unless you think it's fun to get slaughtered repeatedly which I imagine most people don't find very exciting.

 

Most of the new level 50s I know stopped PvPing at 50 until 1.2, despite being extremely active pre-level 50.

[oldshatterhand]

If you PvP just for gear, you're doing it wrong. I've been in full BM for a while now, and still play at least 10 warzones every day.

[KennethHoover]

Why PVP before 1.2? The same reason you'll be PVPing after 1.2 . For competition against other players. If you're pvping purely for gear and not for constantly developing strategy and effort to win against other players, you're missing the point in my opinion.

 

.

 

Bingo.

[xenotpt]

So, if you can buy a new set of Recruit gear for 320K post 1.2 and replace your Centurion gear, then what is everyone complaining about? We'll have similar gear, and PvP battles will be based on skill, not gear. I think this is what Bioware intends - Let's all get similar gear so the ranking in the warzones will have merit, and not be based on gear. I don't see a problem with it. It is a fundamental shift in the way PvP will function, so these changes are necessary.

[Varicite]

You don't get it. If we aren't BMs, then we can only go for Cent/Champ gear, which is useless in 1.2. There are no rewards worth going for right now once you max out Comms.

 

Yes, you can PvP for fun, but it's not really fun when you are outgeared and can't perform at the same level as everyone else, and can't even get gear that will help you out. If you are a new 50, there is no point in PvPing, unless you think it's fun to get slaughtered repeatedly which I imagine most people don't find very exciting.

 

Most of the new level 50s I know stopped PvPing at 50 until 1.2, despite being extremely active pre-level 50.

 

Ah, I see, you're talking about the limbo between now and 1.2, not afterward. Gotcha.

 

This makes a lot more sense now. Sorry it took me so long to understand what the actual complaint was.

 

Yeah, not a lot to do till 1.2 if you aren't already BM; I've been leveling my alts, personally, and stockpiling comms on my 50s.

[Graushwein]

Ah, I see, you're talking about the limbo between now and 1.2, not afterward. Gotcha.

 

This makes a lot more sense now. Sorry it took me so long to understand what the actual complaint was.

 

Yeah, not a lot to do till 1.2 if you aren't already BM; I've been leveling my alts, personally, and stockpiling comms on my 50s.

 

And losing your effort time and gear lead on the who haven't even started yet.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Graushwein

[TDRedmage]

Recruit wouldn't be greater if you scrapped the old Champ stats. Take the stats for the recruit armor for the base Champ armor, then add 2x... So essentially they'd be taking Recruit gear, modifying the stats, and then attaching it to the Champ gear 3d Models. That is the easy way of explaining it, but the easy way of actually doing it (from m ylast post) removes room for error.

 

At 12,475 WZ to get a full set, that is over 166.33 warzone games averaging 70 WZ per game. 166 games is a lot from my perspective. Granted though, I don't know if they are changing the WZ reward rate.

 

And the Champ set isn't better than the Recruit set, more close to equal because the 4% expertise Recruit bonus closely balances the Champ stat bonuses. However the effort it takes to get Champ gear is huge, relative to 320k for Recruit. So yes, like what I said in the OP, what is the point of grinding WZ for more champ gear when you could PvE and have way more than 320k when the patch arrives.

 

Champ gear is hard to get if your valor only lets you get bags with 7 champ commendations... Champ and Recruit gear being close to equal, when you compare opportunity costs of doing other less fun things in the game, PvP is in vain.

 

Your logic is sound. But honestly I think the only reason you'd stop until the patch comes out is if pvp is not fun for you and gear really is the main reason you're doing it.

 

And at this point that's what I have to ask. All the arguments laid out paint the picture of a person who is really trying to figure out if he still wants to play at all.

 

Bottom line (for me at least) is if gear is a huge concern for people what's going to happen when they have it? Then the game would lose most of its appeal.

 

If that's you then 1.2 isn't going to change much at all. It will give you another few weeks of entertainment tops. And if this isn't an accurate assessment of you then you should be wanting to play in the next week (hopefully not 2) until the patch hits, unless of course you've lost interest in the game.

Edited April 5, 2012 by TDRedmage

[metus]

The first time I read the PvP changes I was about 3 pieces into my Pyrotech BM gear, It is sort of a let down that all the "work" put into getting something will be rendered meaningless in a few weeks, but I do agree, if you like the game, and you enjoy PvP then you will deal with the changes and move on.

 

PvP is about testing yourself against other players, the gear helps a bit, but most of the upgrades are single digits, so who the **** cares... there are so many factors while fighting that the gear is irrelevant. Someone with a HP keyboard and Standard mouse will most likely not do as well against someone with a dedicated gaming pad and an 8 hotkey gaming mouse.

 

It boils down to skill, reaction time, and how much of a life you lack... sadly I lack much.

 

I like star wars, and I love story, so instead of ************ about all the ****** crap BW is doing, I made a marauder to pass the time (who i *********** love btw) I cant wait to unleash him unto the 50's, because really... sub 50 wz are a joke, and I always get a good laugh from all the QQ

[CrunkShizzle]

why pvp before 1.2?

 

gee lets see,to have fun maybe

 

 

oh thats right.another thing world of warcraft ruined in terms of the mmo genre.people doing things for fun and not gear

 

so theres 2 things wow ruined.a decent community in a mmo,and doing things for fun and not gear

Edited April 5, 2012 by CrunkShizzle

[metus]

...also, I would go up against a recruit in BM gear any day of the week... I wouldn't be to worried about my odds, just cause you buy the gear, doesn't mean you know **** about playing the game.

[NDiggy]

why pvp before 1.2?

 

gee lets see,to have fun maybe

 

 

oh thats right.another thing world of warcraft ruined in terms of the mmo genre.people doing things for fun and not gear

 

so theres 2 things wow ruined.a decent community in a mmo,and doing things for fun and not gear

 

Its a lot of fun getting destroyed by people who vastly out gear yourself. Right now the game is in limbo until 1.2, and its a lot harder to stomach getting steamrolled by all those War Heroes when you know that you're not getting any closer to closing the gear gap. Add in the fact that all your progress towards getting your BM set is being wiped in 1.2, and I would think most people could understand where the frustration is coming from.

 

 

...also, I would go up against a recruit in BM gear any day of the week... I wouldn't be to worried about my odds, just cause you buy the gear, doesn't mean you know **** about playing the game.

 

Its not like PvP in this game is amazingly deep or difficult. The two biggest deciding factors in most fights, however, is gear and advanced class. 1.2 will only widen the gap between those that have BM gear and those that do not.

[Regurgitate]

I'm in the same boat as you. Took my time leveling, missed out on the Ilum valor-fests, and had to slowly grind to valor rank 60, which I hit last week. Now, after grinding out the ranks for the past few months BW pulls the carpet out from under us and valor is essentially worthless when 1.2 launches. We get nothing for all the time we spent grinding out those valor ranks and we get the pleasure of completely starting over gearing ourselves when 1.2 drops.

 

Its frustrating not to have anything to show for the two months of time I've spent grinding pvp ranks. All the badges, warzone and merc commendations I've spent on centurion and champ gear were wasted.

 

I admit the system was awful and really penalized late comers to the pvp scene, but the least BW could do was give us something to show for all the time we spent grinding valor. Under the new system given all the time I've spent pvp'ing, I'd have been able to outfit myself and all my companions twice over in Battlemaster gear by now. Instead I have nothing to show for my time but the few pieces of BM gear I bought with WZ and Merc Coms because the drop rate on BM Badges is so abysmal.

 

SLOWLY grind to 60 in this new system? *** U can get battlemaster way easier now than before.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Regurgitate

[metus]

Its not like PvP in this game is amazingly deep or difficult. The two biggest deciding factors in most fights, however, is gear and advanced class. 1.2 will only widen the gap between those that have BM gear and those that do not.

 

True, pvp is not hard... I prefer the run around in a circle button mash dance.

 

IMHO the best pvp is in EvE online. Roaming around in 0.0 space on a single server with 10's of thousands of people, listening to your cloakie scout who has spotted another group doing the same thing 4 jumps away, catching up to them just as the rear scout lights up vent informing that hes been trapped by the second half of the enemy fleet who used one of the player owned jump bridges to land 2 systems behind us effectively blocking our exit from enemy space....let the madness ensue. One of the many scenarios I have encountered in my piloting career. My heart still pounds from the battles I have been a part of.

 

...but it doesn't have lightsabers

[Varicite]

1.2 will only widen the gap between those that have BM gear and those that do not.

 

How do you come to this conclusion? Recruit gear may not be as good as Champ stat-wise, but the increased Expertise helps to make up for it a bit.

 

Also, there is no silly gating mechanic or RNG to stop people from gearing up in BM gear.

 

I think the norm will be people running around w/ a mix of BM and Recruit gear until they replace those pieces w/ War Hero.

 

I think that's probably going to be a far more level playing field than it was when full BMs were rolling over people just hitting 50 who had weeks before they could even HOPE to compete.

 

It will be faster for fresh 50s to get to an acceptable Expertise level in 1.2 than it is now, and it's already not too bad of a grind currently, especially compared to what it used to be.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Varicite

[Graushwein]

True, pvp is not hard... I prefer the run around in a circle button mash dance.

 

IMHO the best pvp is in EvE online. Roaming around in 0.0 space on a single server with 10's of thousands of people, listening to your cloakie scout who has spotted another group doing the same thing 4 jumps away, catching up to them just as the rear scout lights up vent informing that hes been trapped by the second half of the enemy fleet who used one of the player owned jump bridges to land 2 systems behind us effectively blocking our exit from enemy space....let the madness ensue. One of the many scenarios I have encountered in my piloting career. My heart still pounds from the battles I have been a part of.

 

...but it doesn't have lightsabers

 

as for is star wars fans go I would place myself in the top 10 or 5 percent of those. I love star wars. But I love eve online even more. The reason that I had to stop playing and take on this game was because I had kids and that game requires blocks of time that are too large for me to be able to commit to.

 

and to answer everyone else, I really like pvp more than I like pve. however I also like playing my character to improve his abilities in some noticeable way. until patch 1. 2 I have lost my ability to progress my character's pvp eficiency. because I don't have the time to become a battle master, I cannot improve my character in pvp until the patch goes live.

[gwyniveth]

I understand all of the frustration with the whole Champ gear thing. I feel it too. I am very new to PvP, this is the first game I have ever bothered to even try it even though I have 10+ years of MMO gaming experience. I PvP to have fun, and I am, but part of that fun comes from winning occasionally. I don't mind losing a well played match, I don't vent my spleen if someone misses a pass in hutttball or loses a turret. I just dig my heals in and try harder, for the fun of it.

 

That said, I do NOT have fun playing a group of pre-mades in BM gear. I don't like getting steam rolled in a match that I or my team mates can't win. Are they better PvP players then we are , maybe some of them are, but it more comes down to gear. So to say that gear doesn't matter is just not the case. If gear were really not important, why have PVP gear at all?

 

I "worked" hard for my better gear so that I could spend more time alive improving my game play. I am not looking forward to being steam rolled by new level 50's in coin purchased gear. Yep, I can buy the gear too, but why do I have to? I absolutely support a beginner lvl 50 pvp gear set for the new 50's. But why does it have to start out being better then my hard earned Champ gear? Why does Champ gear not become the mid tier instead of the bottom tier?

 

Yes, I had/am having fun, but more so now that I have gear in which I can compete. With 1.2, I am starting from scratch, and it doesn't make me happy, not on little bit. Am I still going to PvP..yes. Am I still going to keep working to improve my play style.. yes. Am I still going to have fun? I sure hope so.

 

But please for the love off all that is good PvP, stop belittling those of us in Champ gear who feel like we got shafted.

[metus]

as for is star wars fans go I would place myself in the top 10 or 5 percent of those. I love star wars. But I love eve online even more. The reason that I had to stop playing and take on this game was because I had kids and that game requires blocks of time that are too large for me to be able to commit to.

 

...same here man, they don't delete accounts, so one day ill get back into the 8 hour roams

[Wesgile]

i think the main point here was that why didn't bioware just update the champ gear as well, to something inbetween recruit and bm like probably around 850 expertise or so.

 

it really is as simple as that.

[gwyniveth]

i think the main point here was that why didn't bioware just update the champ gear as well, to something inbetween recruit and bm like probably around 850 expertise or so.

 

it really is as simple as that.

 

Exactly!

[hulkweazel]

Your logic is sound. But honestly I think the only reason you'd stop until the patch comes out is if pvp is not fun for you and gear really is the main reason you're doing it.

 

And at this point that's what I have to ask. All the arguments laid out paint the picture of a person who is really trying to figure out if he still wants to play at all.

 

Bottom line (for me at least) is if gear is a huge concern for people what's going to happen when they have it? Then the game would lose most of its appeal.

 

If that's you then 1.2 isn't going to change much at all. It will give you another few weeks of entertainment tops. And if this isn't an accurate assessment of you then you should be wanting to play in the next week (hopefully not 2) until the patch hits, unless of course you've lost interest in the game.

Wrong. How are people not getting it?

 

Right now unless you are BM or close to BM, there is no way of closing the gap unless you grind 20-30 WZs a day. As much as I enjoy PvP, there is no way I can stomach that much PvP. And in the mean time, you will have to play all of these warzones outgeared with no way of closing that gap, as all of that progress you make during that time will be meaningless come 1.2.

 

It has nothing to do with wanting a gear grind. It has everything to do with being OUTGEARED and not being able to bridge that gap. Some say, just go for champ/cent gear until 1.2. Why? Right now on my new level 50, I have one Champ bag that I got a long time ago. In order for me to even compete, I'd need to spend all my commendations to get the 6 champ bags, and that will only get me 2-3 cent/champ items so I'd still need to play a lot more WZs. I'd then need to get back all my WZ/Merc comms in preparation for 1.2, as I just spent all my comms on gear that would be useless, just for the sake of a slight increase in PvP performance for a week or two.

 

It makes no sense to do this. We enjoy PvP plenty. We just don't think it's fun to be dominated because of lack of gear, and we don't enjoy grinding for gear that will be obsolete anyway, just for the sake of being competitive. Most of us are smart enough to realize it's much better to just save our comms for 1.2 for BM gear.

Edited April 6, 2012 by hulkweazel

[Graushwein]

New thread in General Discussion. Please use that instead.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=3775526#post3775526 (Locked immediately because it might make BioWare look bad.)

 

I have revised my original post and added the following:

 

BioWare is Knowingly Spitting On Champion PvP Geared Players

 

Condensed version: Edited from some nice contributors to this thread.

 

Wesgile

The main point here was that why didn't bioware just update the champ gear as well, to something inbetween recruit and bm like probably around 850 expertise or so. It really is as simple as that.

 

For most people, Fun in an MMO is created by a combination of character advancement and balanced/fun content. I really enjoy PvP as it isn't horribly imbalanced. But as a Champion, my character advancement is being removed with patch 1.2.

 

The new gear:

Helps new 50's

HURTS Champions

Same for Battlemasters (Well, except that new 50's have a slight chance to win now.)

 

Recruit set takes ZERO PvP grind time and is as good as those of us that ground 63+ hours of PvP for Champion gear.

 

Champions are losing 63+ hours. (See math at bottom of section)

New 50's are gaining 63+ hours on everyone.

 

Are Battlemaster geared players losing 63+ hours of work? No, because their progress toward the next tier is retained in 1.2 as it is used to buy War Hero gear.

Champion progress, toward next tier, will not be retained. 63+ Hrs of work will be lost because we don't get those WZ comms back towards buying Battlemaster.

 

gwyniveth

I PvP to have fun, and I am, but part of that fun comes from winning occasionally. Better PvP gear, compared to opponents, absolutely gives you a better chance to win. I never mind losing a well played match. In the new system their un-earned, instantly purchased gear, will have them in slightly better pvp gear than the Champ gear that took me more than a month to grind out.

Patch 1.1x PvP gear levels:

0. Without PvP gear

1. Centurion- One step above new 50's (Small effort, 16 Hrs)

2. Champion- Two steps above new 50's (Moderate effort, 63 Hrs)

3. Battlemaster- Can't get any better (Significant effort)

 

Patch 1.2 PvP gear levels:

-1 Centurion

0. Recruit- New 50's. Made zero because anyone can buy it instead of speeder skill at 50

0. Champion- Zero steps above new 50's. Used to be two steps above new 50's. Equal to Recruit gear.

1. Battlemaster- Same distance from Champ level in previous patch

2. War Hero

 

 

PROPOSAL for 1.2 PvP gear levels:

0. Centurion- Change stats to be equal to recruit gear.

0. Recruit- New 50's. Made zero because anyone can buy it instead of speeder skill at 50

1. Champion- One step above new 50's. Used to be two steps above new 50's

2. Battlemaster- Same distance from Champ level in previous patch

3. War Hero

 

gwyniveth

That said, I do NOT have fun playing against pre-made groups in BM gear. I don't like getting steam rolled in a match that I or my team mates can't win. (On my server, Kaas City, the Sith outgear/outpopulate us and play with pre-mades so much that I have had two losing streaks of 30+ games in the last 2 weeks, and I'm pretty darn good.) Are they better PvP players then we are , maybe some of them are, but it more comes down to gear. And if you lose more often, you get frustrated because you can't get the better gear that helps you win. So to say that gear doesn't matter is just not the case. If gear were really not important, why have PVP gear at all?

 

I "worked" hard for my better gear so that I could spend more time alive improving my game play. Currently, new level 50's have some disadvantage against me because I earned Champ gear. In the new system their un-earned, instantly purchased gear, will have them in slightly better pvp gear than the Champ gear that took me mor than a month to grind out. Yep, I can buy the gear too, but why do I have to? I absolutely support a beginner lvl 50 pvp gear set for the new 50's. But why does it have to start out being better then my hard earned Champ gear? Why does Champ gear not become the mid tier instead of the bottom tier?

 

Yes, I had/am having fun, but more so now that I have gear in which I can compete. With 1.2, I am starting from scratch, and it doesn't make me happy, not one little bit. Am I still going to PvP? Yes, for fun when my guild isn't raiding. Am I still going to keep working to improve my play style... yes. Am I still going to have fun? I sure hope so.

 

But please for the love off all that is good PvP, stop belittling those of us in Champ gear who feel like we got shafted.

 

MATH

Optimally, doing all daily/weeklies gets you 24 bags = 360 centurion comms for about 14 hours a week, buying 4 bags at 800 WZ each.

Cent set is 432 which takes about 16.4 hours of grind.

 

168 Champ comms per 14 hour week at 7 per bag x 24 bags.

Champ set is 743

4.5 weeks (63 Hrs) to get a full set

Edited April 6, 2012 by Graushwein