Jedi Shadow combatlog parses

[Philosomanic]

Okay, I have an odd parsing request. Balance is theoretically the premier melee/range hybrid spec in this game. Could you see how well we can deal damage from 10m? I've never really tried something like this, but I'm guessing the priority would be:

 

1. Force In Balance
   
2. Force Breach
   
3. Sever Force
   
4. Mind Crush
   
5. TK Throw
   
6. Project
   

 

I'm curious if we actually have even semi-significant damage from 10m range, which would be incredibly helpful for FP/Op bosses that have melee-punishing mechanics. We're clearly at our best when we can be in melee range, it seems like we should do somewhat decent damage from 10m.

[Payneintherear]

They could just make FiB require Force Tehnique to be usable, and bai bai hybrid KC/balance spec. Simple as that.

 

Not sure if you noticed, but FiB was not even used for the parse. This "hybrid" label is also very misleading. 27/(0/1/2)/(14/13/12) builds are not hybrid specs. They are Kinetic DPS specs (picking the maximum amount of damage from the Kinetic tree and branching out for extra damage instead of picking up the utility on top of the Kinetic tree).

 

You can only do that to this extent with Kinetic (major flaw), because Infiltration at the very least requires you to pick up Deep Impact, which makes branching out for extra damage impossible.

 

PS: none will pick fib over slow time as a main KC tree user for rated anyway, slow time is invaluable, being able to snare more than half of enemy team to give time to your team to get to a turret or door or run ball etc, compared to moderate 3 target damage every 15s (without 30% surge bonus from deep balance as well).

 

This is a very biased opinion. Kinetic's AE-snare is in no way needed, let alone unique. There are classes with a much better AE-snare in this game.

 

For me personally, slow time is most used ability in any premade pvp situation, is simply put best spell in KC tree in a pvp situation. Lowest force cost, aoe, snare. Now only if they would move containment to tier 1 or 2 in balance

 

You pick a Guardian instead of a Shadow and what you get is a spammable AE-snare, an AE-mezz, guardian leap with a 20% damage reduction on the target and a lot more goodies. The only thing a KC has going for them is the damage really (which in my honest opinion is not too high for the lack of specialized defense of the AC, but rather Infiltration (especially given the lowest survivability of the three) and Balance being too low))

Edited April 3, 2012 by Payneintherear

[Missandei]

31/10 looks like around 20% DPS loss VS Inf....seems pretty close to inline to me but the 24/17 might be out of whack.

 

But again, this is not the «pure tank spec»..

as author was mentioned he made it in rakata STALKER(!) gear - though it`s a tank in DPS gear..

[Missandei]

Out of curiosity, what do the DPS numbers look like for a 31/0/10 in Survivor gear?

 

As to fixing the 'problem' of wearing DPS gear as a Kinetic (even though 20% less damage than a DPS spec even while wearing DPS gear doesn't seem out of line to me) they could just incentivize wearing the 'correct' gear by buffing the set bonuses but making them only apply while in the correct stance. ie: Survivor set bonuses only work with Combat Technique and the Stalker set bonuses only work in Shadow or Force Techniques.

 

Who is forbidding you to isert Stalker Mods into the Survivor gear? Though you will have Survivor bonuses and almost Stalker stat gear..

[jbuschell]

From the different parses I have seen we seem to be somewhere between the 3rd to 7th best dps for balance spec. Sentinels and marauders are consistently parsing at the top I've seen numbers between 1400 to 1600 dps, I've seen concealment ops and scrapper scoundrels parsing at 1450 of course their numbers are skewed due to lack of gap closets in an actual raid setting and I see snipers/slingers, commandos/mercs, dps vangaurds/pyrotechs and balance shadows parsing in the mid 1300's with sorcs in the 1200s. So were competitve for sure.

[anstalt]

Arrrgghhh!

 

Desperate for 1.2 now lol. Too lazy to download PTS client plus wouldn't have character copy either. Really curious to see what sort of damage I can pump out as both infiltration and full KC (31/10).

 

I wont bother with 27/14 "hybrid" as honestly, its a terrible spec. You are trading out a ton of survivability and utility (namely self healing and AoE snare) for a measely increase in damage. Also, as pointed out, the damage decrease for full KC comes simply from using TK self heal. In a raid situation, if u are in DPS gear then you aren't expecting to get hit (often) and thus won't be using TK every time you reach 3 HS, thus DPS will be much much closer to the "hybrid" spec anyways. Same applies to pvp. If you aren't getting hit, you're DPS will be just as high in 31/10 as 27/14, but when you are getting hit, you have self-healing which will benefit you more.

[Payneintherear]

Arrrgghhh!

 

Desperate for 1.2 now lol. Too lazy to download PTS client plus wouldn't have character copy either. Really curious to see what sort of damage I can pump out as both infiltration and full KC (31/10).

 

I wont bother with 27/14 "hybrid" as honestly, its a terrible spec. You are trading out a ton of survivability and utility (namely self healing and AoE snare) for a measely increase in damage. Also, as pointed out, the damage decrease for full KC comes simply from using TK self heal. In a raid situation, if u are in DPS gear then you aren't expecting to get hit (often) and thus won't be using TK every time you reach 3 HS, thus DPS will be much much closer to the "hybrid" spec anyways. Same applies to pvp. If you aren't getting hit, you're DPS will be just as high in 31/10 as 27/14, but when you are getting hit, you have self-healing which will benefit you more.

 

You still have self healing with 27 points in Kinetic. You can still use Telekinetic Throw for dps purposes, even if you do not get hit. That's what the 27/x/x spec does. Now I give you that the 31-point spec can get 3 stacks of HD up faster, but Slow Time has a 8s CD still.

 

Either way, im the 27 point spec was underperforming in the test (comparing the crit amount of the 27 Kinetic spec and the Infiltration spec, we notice that a) Infiltration was mighty lucky on crit chance b) the Kinetic spec had less than a 100% crit chance, which tells us he used it outside of PA, which would seem to be a dps loss give the steep cost of a non-crit Project compared to another Double Strike)

[Philosomanic]

I think you vastly over-estimate the Tankability of a hybrid spec'd Shadow with DPS gear.

 

VASTLY.

 

I don't really think I am. But I prefer to go by actual numbers than by the feel of it, so I did math. I made an Ask Mr. Robot Profile for Balance and for the 27/0/14 hybrid. Balance is the spec I'm actually using right now, and the 27/0/14 is how I would build it if I was so inclined.

 

27/0/14 Profile

7/2/32 Profile

 

They both have full BM Stalker gear, for the sake of convenience. The only difference is that the Hybrid build has the BM Survivor Shield Generator, rather than the BM Stalker Power Generator. Now, I'll do some math to find the effective health (ignoring self-heals) for each.

 

Internal/Elemental damage

Balance: 18,182

Hybrid: 20,899 (+14.9%)

 

Force/Tech Kinetic/Energy

Balance: 21,388

Hybrid: 28,002 (+30.9%)

 

Weapon Damage

Balance: 23,764

Hybrid: 35,850 (+50.9%)

Kinetic Ward: 37,270 (+56.8%)

 

 

This means that the 27/0/14 build will have a minimum of 14.9% more effective health than Balance, and that's if they're taking nothing but internal/elemental damage. Most attacks are Kinetic/Energy, and I'd wager you take more weapon damage than you do Internal/Elemental damage. This places the KC/Hybrid spec's passive defense increase somewhere around 35%.

 

This also isn't accounting for active defenses. Balance heals between 0.5% and 1% of their health every second. KC can heal for 12% every 15-20s, or .6% to .8% every second. That's roughly equal. However, KC also gets heals from combat technique. Also, since KC has higher defenses, a heal for the same amount of health means much more effective health.

 

So 27/0/14 has 10-15% less damage than Balance, but 30-40% more defense, as well as greater utility (Force Pull, Stasis, Mind Over Matter) and support (guard). Something doesn't seem right to me there.

 

 

 

This spec is mediocre at best now for the role you are trying to fill. You will never have the burst of Infiltration or sustained of Balance or the survival/peel effectiveness of 31/0/10.

 

I agree with you there. A full tank with Slow Time is going to be far more valuable to their team. Slow Time is an amazing skill. The true DPS specs are also going to be better, because it's the job of your team's tanks and healers to keep you alive (if everyone plays well), and you should be focusing on damage. Infil has far better burst, and Balance has the ability to pressure several people at once. It's also a matter of playstyle. People who play Kinetic as it should be played (it's a TANK spec!) are the ones who go 31/x/x.

 

However, the fact that this spec doesn't contribute to the group is, if anything, another reason it needs re-adjusting. Right now, the poor/self-centered players love this spec, because it's really powerful for solo. It doesn't matter to those people that they're actually hurting their team, they just care about their own kills. These are the people who deathmatch in Huttball.

 

Rebalancing this spec would only hurt those players, and that could be a good thing. If they decide to go full Kinetic, then they'll be helping their team more. If nothing else, they keep an Imp or two occupied and out of the real fight. If they go Balance/Infiltration, they'll be forced to work with the team so they get heals and tanking.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Philosomanic

[Zintair]

Either way, im the 27 point spec was underperforming in the test (comparing the crit amount of the 27 Kinetic spec and the Infiltration spec, we notice that a) Infiltration was mighty lucky on crit chance b) the Kinetic spec had less than a 100% crit chance, which tells us he used it outside of PA, which would seem to be a dps loss give the steep cost of a non-crit Project compared to another Double Strike)

 

 

We won;t know FOR SURE until it's released to all of us but then the arguement for a re-look at Balance/Infiltration should be warranted.

 

If we bring NO utility or goodies outside of DPS for the raid what is the point of bringing us?

 

I always saw the Shadow as a pure DPS class with little utility but high risk/high reward.

 

Sentinel bring more utility/DPS and survivability.

 

 

But once again we need a lot more people parsing.

[anstalt]

Just wondering, but OP said these parses were without force potency, relics and adrenals.

 

The logs from other classes (haven't seen myself, but someone earlier said sents parsing 1400-1600, most dps around 1400), does anyone know if they are using all tools available?

 

I'm guessing that if those guys parsing 1500-1600 were using everything possible, shadows (inf + balance) can get close to that using everything possible too.

 

 

OP, I know you must be a busy person, but if you get a chance I'd love to see some parses where you use force potency, relics and adrenals Specifically for inf and balance specs. I would guess that running a 6 minute parse so you can use adrenal twice, but stop before third use, would get a fair result. Probably wont make much difference but you never know

[Zintair]

I don't really think I am. But I prefer to go by actual numbers than by the feel of it, so I did math. I made an Ask Mr. Robot Profile for Balance and for the 27/0/14 hybrid. Balance is the spec I'm actually using right now, and the 27/0/14 is how I would build it if I was so inclined.

 

27/0/14 Profile

7/2/32 Profile

 

They both have full BM Stalker gear, for the sake of convenience. The only difference is that the Hybrid build has the BM Survivor Shield Generator, rather than the BM Stalker Power Generator. Now, I'll do some math to find the effective health (ignoring self-heals) for each.

 

Internal/Elemental damage

Balance: 18,182

Hybrid: 20,899 (+14.9%)

 

Force/Tech Kinetic/Energy

Balance: 21,388

Hybrid: 28,002 (+30.9%)

 

Weapon Damage

Balance: 23,764

Hybrid: 35,850 (+50.9%)

Kinetic Ward: 37,270 (+56.8%)

 

 

This means that the 27/0/14 build will have a minimum of 14.9% more effective health than Balance, and that's if they're taking nothing but internal/elemental damage. Most attacks are Kinetic/Energy, and I'd wager you take more weapon damage than you do Internal/Elemental damage. This places the KC/Hybrid spec's passive defense increase somewhere around 35%.

 

This also isn't accounting for active defenses. Balance heals between 0.5% and 1% of their health every second. KC can heal for 12% every 15-20s, or .6% to .8% every second. That's roughly equal. However, KC also gets heals from combat technique. Also, since KC has higher defenses, a heal for the same amount of health means much more effective health.

 

So 27/0/14 has 10-15% less damage than Balance, but 30-40% more defense, as well as greater utility (Force Pull, Stasis, Mind Over Matter) and support (guard). Something doesn't seem right to me there.

 

I apologize we completely misunderstood each other on the first scenario.

 

I was referring to Hybrid vs 31/0/10 not Balance.

 

And I'm pretty sure I was thinking full tank as well lol.

 

I agree with you there. A full tank with Slow Time is going to be far more valuable to their team. Slow Time is an amazing skill. The true DPS specs are also going to be better, because it's the job of your team's tanks and healers to keep you alive (if everyone plays well), and you should be focusing on damage. Infil has far better burst, and Balance has the ability to pressure several people at once. It's also a matter of playstyle. People who play Kinetic as it should be played (it's a TANK spec!) are the ones who go 31/x/x.

 

However, the fact that this spec doesn't contribute to the group is, if anything, another reason it needs re-adjusting. Right now, the poor/self-centered players love this spec, because it's really powerful for solo. It doesn't matter to those people that they're actually hurting their team, they just care about their own kills. These are the people who deathmatch in Huttball.

 

Rebalancing this spec would only hurt those players, and that could be a good thing. If they decide to go full Kinetic, then they'll be helping their team more. If nothing else, they keep an Imp or two occupied and out of the real fight. If they go Balance/Infiltration, they'll be forced to work with the team so they get heals and tanking.

 

I originally liked both the hybrid and standard 31/0/10 with DPS mods/Stalker stuff but organization has won the day for me and Tanks playing a Tank doing Tank things is so much more viable. It also requires dedicated other members in your Warzone of course as well.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Zintair

[Zintair]

Just wondering, but OP said these parses were without force potency, relics and adrenals.

 

The logs from other classes (haven't seen myself, but someone earlier said sents parsing 1400-1600, most dps around 1400), does anyone know if they are using all tools available?

 

I'm guessing that if those guys parsing 1500-1600 were using everything possible, shadows (inf + balance) can get close to that using everything possible too.

 

 

OP, I know you must be a busy person, but if you get a chance I'd love to see some parses where you use force potency, relics and adrenals Specifically for inf and balance specs. I would guess that running a 6 minute parse so you can use adrenal twice, but stop before third use, would get a fair result. Probably wont make much difference but you never know

 

I've heard enrage timers on the new OP are around 4-6 minutes.

 

I think that's a fair range considering Sentinels are prolly popping their goodie cooldown twice as well.

 

Also you are probably cutting out at least 25-50 DPS without Force Potency. Relic might be another 25- 50 if you pop it off twice. Total guestimates.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Zintair

[Veimi]

I do use force potency and relics. Just not "on use" relics but proc ones. Dark Energy Surge and Matrix shard. Adrenals I haven't used.

[Moonheart_S]

A very interesting thread.

I'd like to see myself a comparison between builds having for only difference a single skill could be a real boost to the understanding of how our spec works.

 

For exemple, we still don't have any reliable knowledge about how Rapid Recovery works, or about the real extra DPS that Upheaval brings.

 

I always wonder, too, if it couldn't be interesting to see what DPS is able to bring a mix between Deep Impact and Particule Acceleration (a bit like this). This is a synergy that I never seen someone test until now and that I've been curious about since a long time.

 

I wish I could test it by myself right now, but I still have to wait the 1.2

Edited April 3, 2012 by Moonheart_S

[anstalt]

I do use force potency and relics. Just not "on use" relics but proc ones. Dark Energy Surge and Matrix shard. Adrenals I haven't used.

 

Cool, thanks for the clarification

 

Ofc, now I'm even more curious: do "on click" relics (e.g. +355 power) provide more or less damage over time than auto-proc relics

 

I'm guessing the auto-proc ones will win it over time, simply because its less random. A crit/surge relic probably has the potential to add more, but you would be relying on RNG to get those extra crits during those 15seconds. 6.6k damage from auto-proc doesn't seem much over a 4min parse, but its probably similar/more than on-use relics.

 

 

Also, anyone else worried they aren't gonna parse as high!? I like to think of myself as an excellent inf shadow, but truth is there are no other inf shadows in guild so I've no clue! I'll be embarassed if I can only parse 1k dps hehe

[Moonheart_S]

I wonder... what is the armor rating of the training dummy?

[Zintair]

Cool, thanks for the clarification

 

Ofc, now I'm even more curious: do "on click" relics (e.g. +355 power) provide more or less damage over time than auto-proc relics

 

I'm guessing the auto-proc ones will win it over time, simply because its less random. A crit/surge relic probably has the potential to add more, but you would be relying on RNG to get those extra crits during those 15seconds. 6.6k damage from auto-proc doesn't seem much over a 4min parse, but its probably similar/more than on-use relics.

 

 

Also, anyone else worried they aren't gonna parse as high!? I like to think of myself as an excellent inf shadow, but truth is there are no other inf shadows in guild so I've no clue! I'll be embarassed if I can only parse 1k dps hehe

 

I'm gonna go ahead and say the Power relic is more effective. Especially for Inf and Balance. With Infiltration you can time when you burn most of your burst. Pop the Relic when burst is coming then for 15 seconds enjoy a huge bonus to your power while you burn through heavy regen/Dmg cooldowns until you eventually run dry and setup for the next cycle through.

 

For Balance you can probably rack up nice numbers as well but I'm curious whether or not the Crit/Aurge Relic might be better for all those DoT ticks and free cast Mind Crush crits might be a HUGE bump in DPS.

 

Luckily thats why we get to test.

 

 

Run 10x with each setup and average the scores and figure out which yields the better average.

[Philosomanic]

For Balance you can probably rack up nice numbers as well but I'm curious whether or not the Crit/Aurge Relic might be better for all those DoT ticks and free cast Mind Crush crits might be a HUGE bump in DPS.

 

I use the crit/surge relic. I'm not sure which one gives higher DPS, especially without testing, but I suspect it's the crit/surge. However, I am positive that crit/surge is better (at least for PvP) because it also gives a strong boost so self-healing from DoT crits.

[Neamhan]

Who is forbidding you to isert Stalker Mods into the Survivor gear? Though you will have Survivor bonuses and almost Stalker stat gear..

 

Good point. I assume the set bonuses are attached to the armoring mod, so one couldn't get full Stalker stats while retaining Survivor bonuses but it seems Bioware doesn't have many options for dealing with tanks in dps gear. Personally I don't think it's a problem though (especially after seeing the 31/0/10 numbers vs full dps specs) so I'm not going to dwell on it.

[trakata]

Umm, Survivor/Stalker sets have the same armoring. Thus, if you replace Survivor mods/enhancements with Stalker ones (but keep the armoring), you will essentially have Survivor set bonus with Stalker gear.

[Zintair]

Umm, Survivor/Stalker sets have the same armoring. Thus, if you replace Survivor mods/enhancements with Stalker ones (but keep the armoring), you will essentially have Survivor set bonus with Stalker gear.

 

Are you sure?

 

They both have the same End/Will on them?

 

Is this so for Hilts as well?

[Zintair]

I use the crit/surge relic. I'm not sure which one gives higher DPS, especially without testing, but I suspect it's the crit/surge. However, I am positive that crit/surge is better (at least for PvP) because it also gives a strong boost so self-healing from DoT crits.

 

Yeah as I was typing I realized that Crit/Surge relic is probably ****** for Balance spec for both DPS and survivability.

 

Can't wait to start parsing these.

[Boxer]

Umm, Survivor/Stalker sets have the same armoring. Thus, if you replace Survivor mods/enhancements with Stalker ones (but keep the armoring), you will essentially have Survivor set bonus with Stalker gear.

 

This is not true.

 

There are two armorings with will/end. Force-wielder which gives ~ equal end and will, and the other that name escapes my mind currently that gives about 50% more will than end, iirc.

 

I think it's in the order of 50/50 and 60/40, or some such.

[heinywb]

Are you sure?

 

They both have the same End/Will on them?

 

Is this so for Hilts as well?

 

yes on armorings. both pre and post 1.2 bm stalker, survivor armorings have the exact same stats. i have both survivor and stalker sets both with the same mods and enh (for dps) and the stats are identical....only difference is set bonuses.......cant confirm hilts

Edited April 3, 2012 by heinywb

[heinywb]

This is not true.

 

There are two armorings with will/end. Force-wielder which gives ~ equal end and will, and the other that name escapes my mind currently that gives about 50% more will than end, iirc.

 

I think it's in the order of 50/50 and 60/40, or some such.

 

u are correct in that there are 2 armorings with different amounts of end vs will power however the armorings in the bm stalker and survivor sets are the same.