Ok, what am I doing wrong here?

[Ohoni]

As for Skavak, he's a level 33 elite, and he hits harder than his level. A lot of players have trouble beating him at 31. Heck, there's a certain Elite boss for a Quesh mission that wiped me and Corso, and I was four levels above him.

 

I just ran my class quest for my Balance Sage with Theron, and had NO trouble. Same level, lesser gear, but no problems. I had to fight in a lot more fights, came out of most of them with 90% health and 50%+ Force. The final boss fight I ended with almost full health, although I was getting low enough on Force that I could basically just spam TK Throw, but by that point he was nearly dead. I'm sure had I used some more careful tactics I could have kept my energy much higher and had otherwise similar results. If my Scoundrel was half this effective I would have no cause for complaint.

 

It's not that simple. The more powerful stuff you push down to a lower level, the easier it is for those powers to get sniped in a hybrid, lessening the power of the tree overall for those that choose to specialize.

 

Isn't Shoot First a class ability, rather than a tree ability? In any case, this was an issue that came up during beta when they moved the Bounty Hunter's Rocket Punch back ten levels. I'll give the same answer I did then, they should add "exclusivity" branches to the trees. Don't make it so that the only way an ability can be made exclusive to a tree is by placing it at the top of the tree. Make a branch of the tree, with a unique color or something, that can only be pursued if you stick with that one tree. Make it so that you can only select any ability from that branch if you have no other exclusive abilities or abilities from above tier 2 in any other trees, and after selecting that power it locks all other trees above tier 2.

 

That way, they could put abilities like Flechette on tier 2, 3, even tier 1 if they felt like it, but if you picked it then you could then only pick other Scrapper abilities, or tier 1 and 2 abilities from the other two branches.

 

You do have a method: Round Two. Not one that happens often, but it's there, and the rate IMO is intentionally slow, so you don't gain UHs as fast as Sawbones can. Sure, full Sawbones may be able to generate UH procs like candy, but they can't use them on any high damage abilities, which is why the hybrid is popular.

 

Yes, but the only practical benefit to the Scrapper tree is that you can mix it up in melee, that you can use Sucker Punch to smack people around. But you need UH to fuel that capability. You can't use it nearly often enough in boss fights. I wouldn't mind not having Upper Hand if Sucker Punch didn't require it. I mean, Grav Rounds in the Commando tree you can spam constantly.

 

You really sound like you're implying that all classes should be given all skills and talents prior to level 15 with this.

 

All necessary skills and talents. The way you play should vary as you level, you should get more options and ways to fight, but you should be balanced at every single level, you should have every tool that you need to fight the content at your level. You should have more options at 40 than at 20, but the options you have at 20 should be everything you'd ever need to fight level 20 enemies. Basically, to keep it simple, if you need "20 combaty points" to fight on even terms at level 20, and 40 to fight on even terms at level 40, then the game shouldn't leave you with only 15 "combaty points" at level 20, and then give you a skill that gives you an additional 30 of them at level 35, it should give you 20 by level 20 and 40 by level 40 in a relatively even progression.

 

When asking for advice, the only available answer should never be "well when you get this ability ten levels later, everything gets a lot better." Nor should it be "here's a way to exploit the AI that will get you past this fight that you clearly aren't capable of overcoming fairly." Scoundrels may be great at level 50. That's nice, but they should also be equally great at 45, and 40, and 35, and 30, and 25, and so on.

 

If you're using a healer on your Scoundrel, you're already doing something wrong.

 

You get your optimum companion at level 10. Sounds like good design to me.

 

Healers should be the best companion to any front line fighter. If you bring a tank then you have to worry about healing them yourself. A solid DPS/Tank character should be able to run in, do the work himself, and be defensible enough that his healer can keep him topped off. I mean, I think that my Scoundrel should be at least as survivable as my "mage" character. If I can Sage with a healer companion and end most fights at full health, I should be able to do the same with my Scrapper.

 

If you're doing your rotation right, no fight will take longer than a minute before you're ready to attack the mob you've CC'd.

 

Boss fights tend to. Minions, no, but bosses often take at least a minute and a half, maybe two, at least with my Sage. With my Scoundrel I'm usually dead already.

[MashTactics]

All necessary skills and talents. The way you play should vary as you level, you should get more options and ways to fight, but you should be balanced at every single level, you should have every tool that you need to fight the content at your level. You should have more options at 40 than at 20, but the options you have at 20 should be everything you'd ever need to fight level 20 enemies. Basically, to keep it simple, if you need "20 combaty points" to fight on even terms at level 20, and 40 to fight on even terms at level 40, then the game shouldn't leave you with only 15 "combaty points" at level 20, and then give you a skill that gives you an additional 30 of them at level 35, it should give you 20 by level 20 and 40 by level 40 in a relatively even progression.

 

I hate to break it to you, but all classes DO have all their necessary skills.

 

If they didn't, nobody would be hitting fifty. They'd be hitting the wall at whatever boss was impossible for them to kill.

 

When asking for advice, the only available answer should never be "well when you get this ability ten levels later, everything gets a lot better." Nor should it be "here's a way to exploit the AI that will get you past this fight that you clearly aren't capable of overcoming fairly." Scoundrels may be great at level 50. That's nice, but they should also be equally great at 45, and 40, and 35, and 30, and 25, and so on.

 

I've told you this already. If you're not using Sabotage charge, then you're not doing something in your rotation that would enable you to perform better. You are CHOOSING to perform poorly, and that's not my problem.

 

Even without sabotage charge, I did every single solo quest as a Scoundrel with absolutely no problem, barring a few at the beginning of Balmorra.

 

Given the above, your argument doesn't hold any weight. It means that the problem lands with you somewhere.

 

Healers should be the best companion to any front line fighter. If you bring a tank then you have to worry about healing them yourself. A solid DPS/Tank character should be able to run in, do the work himself, and be defensible enough that his healer can keep him topped off. I mean, I think that my Scoundrel should be at least as survivable as my "mage" character. If I can Sage with a healer companion and end most fights at full health, I should be able to do the same with my Scrapper.

 

You don't need to worry about healing ANYTHING if it's enemies are dead.

 

This argument is what convinces me that you don't fully understand how your class works. If you don't bring a tank, you won't be able to use Backblast, which is roughly a third of your damage right now.

 

Boss fights tend to. Minions, no, but bosses often take at least a minute and a half, maybe two, at least with my Sage. With my Scoundrel I'm usually dead already.

 

Well, you should understand that the boss is the last thing to die, right?

 

Given that, why do you need to have the boss CC'd when you're trying to kill it?

[utuwer]

 

Well, you should understand that the boss is the last thing to die, right?

 

Given that, why do you need to have the boss CC'd when you're trying to kill it?

 

Lol, let i remind you most of boss fights start right after cut scene, so you do not have stealth to cc them. Well, you can waste your DA for it, but it is a real disadvantage for Scrapper. Shadow might have the same problem, but they have way better tools to over come the problem.

 

Secondly, unless your tank companion have superior gears than you, he would have trouble to hold agro of the boss from you. There are times that even Surrender wont help you out of boss' agro.

 

Work around way is you will have to spam basic attack here and there, root the boss, run away to buy your tank some time to get the agro. And so the boss fights of course are usually pretty long, unless you do the kamikaze style, and hope the boss will go down before you do.

 

For someone who has Scrapper as his/her main character, he/she just gets used to the disadvantages of the class, so for him/her, it is just a norm. For other people, who have scrapper as an alt, they will see big different between how to lvl the class from their main.

For example, OP has Sage as his main, and it is really easy to lvl a sage. Put the AoE on pack of mobs, the quake thing, bam bam bam, normal mobs would die before they are even to react or even if they can land some attack on the sage, the bubble absorbs pretty much all of those dmg. So i have the empathy to OP.

 

To OP, if you find some boss fights are too tough, do normal quests 1st. They will surely help you out-lvl the content pretty quick. Come back after 2-3 lvl with better gears. It will help.

Edited March 31, 2012 by utuwer

[MashTactics]

Lol, let i remind you most of boss fights start right after cut scene, so you do not have stealth to cc them. Well, you can waste your DA for it, but it is a real disadvantage for Scrapper. Shadow might have the same problem, but they have way better tools to over come the problem.

 

Secondly, unless your tank companion have superior gears than you, he would have trouble to hold agro of the boss from you. There are times that even Surrender wont help you out of boss' agro.

 

Work around way is you will have to spam basic attack here and there, root the boss, run away to buy your tank some time to get the agro. And so the boss fights of course are usually pretty long, unless you do the kamikaze style, and hope the boss will go down before you do.

 

For someone who has Scrapper as his/her main character, he/she just gets used to the disadvantages of the class, so for him/her, it is just a norm. For other people, who have scrapper as an alt, they will see big different between how to lvl the class from their main.

For example, OP has Sage as his main, and it is really easy to lvl a sage. Put the AoE on pack of mobs, the quake thing, bam bam bam, normal mobs would die before they are even to react or even if they can land some attack on the sage, the bubble absorbs pretty much all of those dmg. So i have the empathy to OP.

 

To OP, if you find some boss fights are too tough, do normal quests 1st. They will surely help you out-lvl the content pretty quick. Come back after 2-3 lvl with better gears. It will help.

 

My scrapper never was my main. My main is a commando. I went from the easiest class in the game, and switched to one of the most inconvenient classes in the game.

 

It's not hard to play a scrapper. The number one thing you have to do, is listen to the people who are successful on there scrappers.

[Ohoni]

If they didn't, nobody would be hitting fifty. They'd be hitting the wall at whatever boss was impossible for them to kill.

 

And yet numerous people have made suggestions like using the Sawbones tree (which would mean that the Scrapper tree is not self-sufficient at all level ranges), or to over-level the content (which would mean that the Scrapper tree is not level balanced) I mean, technically pretty much any class is "viable" if your standards are that you power level them in the space combat until they're 5-10 levels above the content they're running and use money from other characters to twink them out in the best purple gear in every slot, but that doesn't mean that they're balanced.

 

They should have the tools to be awesome at every level range, not just "possibly capable of squeaking by. . . if you do it just right"

 

This argument is what convinces me that you don't fully understand how your class works. If you don't bring a tank, you won't be able to use Backblast, which is roughly a third of your damage right now.

 

Only if the tank can both hold agro and not die, neither of which Corso or Bowdaar really excel at. Really you're kind of highlighting why the Scrapper spec is such a disjointed mess. A lot of the abilities seem to fall into the "back-stab/ninja" style of moves, and yet they aren't given enough tools to maintain that posture. Their stun's cooldowns are too long, they can't re-enter stealth without healing all the enemies (and even then they have a long cooldown on the move). If scrappers are meant to rely on abilities that attack from behind and/or require stealth, then they should be able to pop in and out of stealth fairly easily at least several times per fight, and should be able to get behind the enemy that they're fighting on a fairly regular basis, even without a tanking companion.

 

Well, you should understand that the boss is the last thing to die, right?

 

Given that, why do you need to have the boss CC'd when you're trying to kill it?

 

Because sometimes they want to do somethign mean to me, and when they do I like having options to stop them. Sometimes both my interrupt and my other stuns are all on cooldown, so having the 60-second stun is sometimes a nice thing to have. When I was fighting the Act 1 boss with my Sage, I used Force Lift twice, just on him alone, and in each case it saved me pain.

 

Lol, let i remind you most of boss fights start right after cut scene, so you do not have stealth to cc them.

 

Also true.

 

For example, OP has Sage as his main, and it is really easy to lvl a sage. Put the AoE on pack of mobs, the quake thing, bam bam bam, normal mobs would die before they are even to react or even if they can land some attack on the sage, the bubble absorbs pretty much all of those dmg. So i have the empathy to OP.

 

And keep in mind, the Sage is not my main, it's just I've been leveling the two classes at the same time, alternating planets, so I've seen them each do the same content at the same levels within days of each other, so the disparity is much more clear. My main is a level 42 Commando, and in beta I also played a Sentinel, Powertech, and Sniper (and also proto versions of the launch characters). So I've dabbled in just about everything.

 

To OP, if you find some boss fights are too tough, do normal quests 1st. They will surely help you out-lvl the content pretty quick. Come back after 2-3 lvl with better gears. It will help.

 

Yeah, I know that's an option, but as I've said, that's a patch, not a solution. You can outlevel the content, but the game should be designed so that you never have to.

[MashTactics]

And yet numerous people have made suggestions like using the Sawbones tree (which would mean that the Scrapper tree is not self-sufficient at all level ranges), or to over-level the content (which would mean that the Scrapper tree is not level balanced) I mean, technically pretty much any class is "viable" if your standards are that you power level them in the space combat until they're 5-10 levels above the content they're running and use money from other characters to twink them out in the best purple gear in every slot, but that doesn't mean that they're balanced.

 

Are you even listening to a word I'm saying?

 

I did every quest as a scrapper at it's recommended level. I killed Skavak at level 32.

 

It's not the classes problem if you can't kill him at that level. It's a difference in skill.

 

Only if the tank can both hold agro and not die, neither of which Corso or Bowdaar really excel at. Really you're kind of highlighting why the Scrapper spec is such a disjointed mess. A lot of the abilities seem to fall into the "back-stab/ninja" style of moves, and yet they aren't given enough tools to maintain that posture. Their stun's cooldowns are too long, they can't re-enter stealth without healing all the enemies (and even then they have a long cooldown on the move). If scrappers are meant to rely on abilities that attack from behind and/or require stealth, then they should be able to pop in and out of stealth fairly easily at least several times per fight, and should be able to get behind the enemy that they're fighting on a fairly regular basis, even without a tanking companion.

 

Dirty kick is a 45 second cooldown. One of the standard-length cooldowns for a 4 second stun. Flash grenade is a minute cooldown. Considering that it's an aoe stun that lasts 8 seconds, that's pretty damn good.

 

Also, do you understand how BROKEN this game would be if mobs didn't recover health out of combat?

 

You could solo some bosses in flashpoints. It would take time, but you could realistically do some flashpoints by yourself. So no, that won't ever happen.

 

 

 

Because sometimes they want to do somethign mean to me, and when they do I like having options to stop them. Sometimes both my interrupt and my other stuns are all on cooldown, so having the 60-second stun is sometimes a nice thing to have. When I was fighting the Act 1 boss with my Sage, I used Force Lift twice, just on him alone, and in each case it saved me pain.

 

Your absurd lack of reading comprehension is really driving me up the wall, dude. That 60 second stun breaks on damage.

 

That means, if you want to stop them, damage is your only way. If damage is your only way, that tranquilizer is a moot point because it BREAKS on damage.

 

Comprende?

 

Playing scrapper is not hard. I did every single quest at the recommended level. I got all of my orange pieces, kept their mods up to date, and learned how my class worked. If you can do that, you will be able to solo every single boss in solo content without a problem.

 

If you can't, it means you're doing something wrong.

 

And for the record, the sentinel quest line has much, much harder encounters. They even have a fight that REQUIRES a specific companion that most don't have any gear on.

 

Scrappers have it easy.

Edited March 31, 2012 by MashTactics

[CrunkShizzle]

I dont know if you pvp much, but as that's my only way of gauging damage I'll use the example.

 

so between full scrapper spec,and sawbones/scrapper hybrid the sawbones/scrapper hybrid would be better for a pvp spec?

 

im thinkin about rollin a scoundrel cuz i like the look of them better then operatives but i was just gonna plan on going full scrapper spec

[CrunkShizzle]

And for the record, the sentinel quest line has much, much harder encounters. They even have a fight that REQUIRES a specific companion that most don't have any gear on.

 

what is this fight?

 

cuz ive been stuck on one for a couple days now(im a sith juggernaught though)and i wonder if thats the reason why

Edited March 31, 2012 by CrunkShizzle

[Ohoni]

Are you even listening to a word I'm saying?

 

I did every quest as a scrapper at it's recommended level. I killed Skavak at level 32.

 

It's not the classes problem if you can't kill him at that level. It's a difference in skill.

 

And have you been reading what I was saying? I was able to beat my Sage's class quest at level 31, with no deaths at all, not even my companions, no problems. I was able to do the same with the Trooper. While I admit that it's possible to defeat the quest as a Scrapper, I think it's fairly clear that it's not nearly as easy to do as with other classes. Even if it is possible to push through and win with enough skill, there is still an imbalance there.

 

 

Dirty kick is a 45 second cooldown. One of the standard-length cooldowns for a 4 second stun. Flash grenade is a minute cooldown. Considering that it's an aoe stun that lasts 8 seconds, that's pretty damn good.

 

They are OK as stuns go, but most classes get just as good, and they don't need them as much. Being able to stun people twice per minute is not all that great when you need to get behind people to use your best attacks. If you need to get behind people to use your best attacks, you should have tools to get behind them almost constantly. If you can't get behind them almost constantly then you shouldn't have to. Most games solve this by either A: having the ability to get behind enemies all the time (like a "teleport behind" or a constantly available combat stealth), or B: by having a "backstab" style of move that you're only meant to use once per fight or so, capable of doing a ton of damage up front, and then it's up to you to finish the job from in front of the target.

 

Also, do you understand how BROKEN this game would be if mobs didn't recover health out of combat?

 

I'm not saying that mobs shouldn't recover health out of combat, I'm saying that Disappearing Act should not take them out of combat. It should just make you invisible to them, while keeping both of you in combat. This is how stealth works in Dragon Age, Amalur, or Mass Effect, if you stealth while in combat, the enemies stay exactly as they are when you stealth, but they can't see you, giving you the chance to sneak around behind them and backstab or whatever you feel like doing. I haven't played WoW in ages but I seem to remember Rogues in that game can do the same thing.

 

They should remain in combat, and they should charge after you if you unstealth within their detection range or they detect you, but by using DA it should allow you to sneak behind them and use your stealth moves, without resetting the entire encounter. If you use DA and then retreat to a safe distance, where you could use your out of combat heal or whatever, then of course that would reset their health, just as if you just kept running without stealth until you escaped their agro range and they returned to where they started.

 

Your absurd lack of reading comprehension is really driving me up the wall, dude. That 60 second stun breaks on damage.

 

Actually this would be a flaw in your own reading comprehension. Yes, it breaks on damage, but it also interrupts whatever they were doing, even if it only works for a split second, which is useful if all your other abilities capable of interrupting have been used already. Also, if you don't damage them then it can last up to 60 seconds, giving you time to use heals or buffs.

 

And for the record, the sentinel quest line has much, much harder encounters. They even have a fight that REQUIRES a specific companion that most don't have any gear on.

 

I didn't get my Sentinel past 25 in beta, but if that's true then Sentinels need a buff as well. Two wrongs don't make a right.

[MashTactics]

If you're not going to take my advice, what exactly are you doing here?

 

You asked a question, and I gave you an answer. Several answers, actually. If you don't want to take the word of someone with much more experience with the class, then that's fine. Just don't go around asking for advice.

 

You can set up your information booth down the street. I'm sure all the level 30 scoundrels will be fascinated and amazed.

 

I apologize for acting like an ***, but if you're not going to take the advice you ask for, then I'm not going to bother debating the subject with you.

 

Yes, classes aren't all the same. Yes, you picked one of the harder ones to play.

 

No, that does not mean that the right answer is to complain about it on the forums.

[Aetou]

If you're playing a Scrapper you need to use a Tank companion so that you can make use of Back Blast really. As others have said, CC & Interrupt and burn targets down quickly one at a time. It is definitely doable. Not as easy as, say, a Bounty Hunter but far from impossible. You shouldn't have problems with US in Solo PVE content because every time you defeat an enemy you gain one, which is a lot more frequent than in either PVP or endgame PVE. You should have 2 points in Sawbones so your heals give you more UHs too and, well, you should be using those heals on your tank whenever it needs it. You may not want to be a healer but the encounters have been balanced around the fact that you can heal and effectively double or treble your tank's HP.

[Ohoni]

If you're not going to take my advice, what exactly are you doing here?

 

Well, it's not that I won't take your advice. If I go back to my Smuggler then I will use it, and I'm quite grateful to you and the rest for providing what advice you have. But what I was hoping to hear is that Smugglers were as good as I wanted them to be, and I was just missing some trick that made them work right.

 

What I'm hearing is that while I wasn't doing everything that I could be doing, I was unfortunately right that they just aren't very good, and it takes a lot more work to make them barely functional than it does to completely pwn the game with any other class (except, apparently, Sentinels, but if my beta experience was anything to go by, they were poorly designed as well).

 

So my plan A was to come in here, have you guys tell me "oh, well if you do this one thing, it'll make you twice as effective as you are doing it your way!" and then I would and fun would ensue. Since the reality of the situation was more "well, if you do this you can maybe squeak out 10% more efficiency, or you could glitch the AI to muddle through it, or whatever," then plan B occurs, "attempt to make the class/spec better than it is now."

 

Yes, classes aren't all the same. Yes, you picked one of the harder ones to play.

 

No, that does not mean that the right answer is to complain about it on the forums.

 

Then what would be the right way for argue for the class to be improved?

 

You should have 2 points in Sawbones so your heals give you more UHs too and, well, you should be using those heals on your tank whenever it needs it. You may not want to be a healer but the encounters have been balanced around the fact that you can heal and effectively double or treble your tank's HP.

 

Which is bad design. There should be skills in the Scrapper tree that offset that effect, so that you don't need it. I never have to use heals on my Commando, I never have to use heals on my Sage, why should I have to use them on my sneak-thief brawler?

[MashTactics]

You'll understand what I mean when you get to 50.

 

The class needs to be polished, big time, and the recent nerfs aren't going to help any, but we have our part to play.

 

Nine out of ten times I am top damage in the warzones I play. This isn't because I'm better than 9 out of 10 players. This is because our class is beast mode at putting out damage. You just need to be patient, and wait for your better skills to become available.

[Ohoni]

You'll understand what I mean when you get to 50.

 

But I won't get to 50 unless I get what you mean at level 31, which is where I am now. I'm not going to play through 20 more levels of suck on the promise that it gets better. "It gets better at 50" is a meaningless statement, the class needs to be great at every level. If they magically get better at 50 then they need to move some of that magic down the skill tree so you can get it much easier. My Commando and Sage are perfectly fine well below 50, it's not like every class is sucky until endgame.

 

Also, warzones are meaningless to me. Really endgame is meaningless to me. I have absolutely no interest in running flashpoints and operations. I want to level my characters to 50 and enjoy the ride, I have absolutely no interest in grinding to 50 so that I can grind better and better gear.

[LastChime]

But I won't get to 50 unless I get what you mean at level 31, which is where I am now. I'm not going to play through 20 more levels of suck on the promise that it gets better. "It gets better at 50" is a meaningless statement, the class needs to be great at every level. If they magically get better at 50 then they need to move some of that magic down the skill tree so you can get it much easier. My Commando and Sage are perfectly fine well below 50, it's not like every class is sucky until endgame.

 

36 actually, it's when you get shoot first. Serial though, just bonus tatooine/alderaan/nar shadda. Even 1 level can make a huge difference.

 

I have issue with BW difficulty level of the class quests, it's like they assume you're head to toe purples, my JK had a hell of a time with Darth Angral at par. Then my trooper bud asks if I can help him on tatooine for an orange companion quest at 35 so I sign up, we just had to kill like 3 mobs way out in the middle of nowhere 2 normal one strong lvl 37, he sneezed and they died.

 

Pssst. I don't think they really play their own game XD