What's missing in SWtOR? It's called a Grind.

[Blackardin]

So if its about having fun with your friends and top gear and a challenge is not your goal why do you protest having a more chalanging mode there you don't have to do it you can still do you ezmode for fun with friends

 

You are, again, drawing a conclusion based on conjecture and assumption.

 

We may very well never do nightmare mode. Take em or leave em. I would suggest that the only way we would try it is if we geared past all current content and were waiting on the next expansion....but again, it would be for fun and our entire life would not rise and fall based on whether we "won" or not. ;p

 

As I've stated, we are a casual guild. We are just now starting to raid as we've spent our time enjoying leveling, crafting, then on to datacrons, regular modes, dailies, and HMs. By the time we finish up, the new content will be out and ready to explore. ;p

[Optrex]

 

Leveling in this game has moved not only to the position of least painful ever, but to enjoyable, fun and interesting. The story line concept will, from this game forward, be the standard from which any leveling will have to be derived if a game wishes to compete in this market.

 

Why even have leveling if this is the case? Its one of only a few things in the game that splits it from a single player game.

IMO, any game that wishes to compete in the 'MMO' market needs to avoid anything this game offers.

 

When I play an MMO and im sure its the same with many others, if your playing the content you dont pay much attention to your level and just go with the flow of the game. If you run out of content because of level or area restrictions then it becomes more of a grind. This is the grind most people hate with MMO's. There's enough content to level your char in TOR but it goes beyond that and you level way too quickly. Crafting becomes pointless while leveling because you gain items so quickly and the char levels are so short. Once you hit 50 there is hardly anything to keep you interested in playing the char. This is where the grind should come in and be an optional thing. If you dont want to build your level 50 char, then fine make another one, which is pretty much all there is to do in this game. Making chars and doing 80% of the same content for that char is pretty much the same grind as it would be if there was other stuff to grind for with your lvl50.

[greenleef]

Again, another conclusion drawn from conjecture. You made an assumption, then assumed that assumption to be true. It is not, nor are the reasons you state. ;p

 

Again you just type crap because you are to lazy to go out and gather information on games you speak of and this is the same reason people cry for only easy mode lazy!!!!! I'm not saying take away your easy mode and ruin the game for your type but you are saying ruin the game for players that want a challenge. When there can be both. Now on my server and this is not a assumption started full within 2 months the guld I was in that had 50 mains all left but 3 then we joined the biggest guild on server that had around 40 plus on at all time went down to a few that just leveled alts so we went to a new active guild and now its near dead to and what was everyones reason the game is to easy and wish there were challenging fights.

Fact now server population is low and planets/fleets are dead

[Herbertt]

this is a logical fallacy. You are explaining how you feel, which is fine, but then attempting to extrapolate that out the the greater majority, where it then fails. The greater majority are not leaving, they are staying. The player base is slowly growing, not declining. The game is settling in as a long term casual player game.

 

Do you even check the server list now and then before you use your fancy words.

Most of the EU to me looks like are all moving to one server, thats how much the game is growing.

 

I am no gloom and doomer but this game is not looking good sub wise and its getting worse everyday not better.

[Warjhinn]

Why do people keep calling it endgame? You get to 50 and it's over? I think not.

 

I have played everything from UO to WoW and everything in between. F2P etc, etc etc...

 

I just got to 50 on my main. I have an 18 and a 10 that I dabbled with. I was in on the beta for this. I cleared every planet before progressing. I am going back and clearing the flashpoints that I missed. I still need to gear up and max crew skills. The truth of it is, like any other MMO, they will add expansions and raise the bar on end-game.

 

UO started out smaller than it is now. The current version is almost completely different than what launched.

 

WoW was the same. From "Vanilla" Level 60 maximum level, to what it is now with Level 90 as maximum level.

 

If the progression is over now, than yes... I am gonna be done with the game soon. If it follows other MMO models and continues to expand, than this is a great game!!!!

 

Those people complaining about it, have either not played an MMO for any length of time before now, or they have amnesia and forget how other games progressed.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Warjhinn

[Darnu]

this is a logical fallacy. You are explaining how you feel, which is fine, but then attempting to extrapolate that out the the greater majority, where it then fails. The greater majority are not leaving, they are staying. The player base is slowly growing, not declining. The game is settling in as a long term casual player game.

 

You prefere a "couple of month" grind. That, again, is fine, but that concept has been proven to fail in this genre and is the single reason Wow experienced the drop in subscriptions that it did. When they changed the lock-out and ramped content up (even basic raid content) to hard mode, they experienced a massive collapse of the casual guild and exodus of the semi-casual player and raider. As the hard core players completed the content (which they will in a matter of weeks regardless of how high it is ramped up), they too began to migrate away also-as they always do because their guilds have no cohesion beyond accomplishment of the task.

 

The concept of "head banging" against a wall is, once again, better suited for shooters then MMORPGs. Wow's dabbling in that area has demonstrated such.

 

I'm not talking about active subscriptions. I'm talking about active players. Social reasons can be found in any game or even real life. What can get a majority of people logging in day after day, staying interested in the game itself? I've spoken about the way I like to play and what I PERSONALLY FOR ME would like in the game, but I don't walk around screaming "don't add this, don't add that, take this out" especially for things I choose not to do. If they got rid of PVP altogether I wouldn't bat an eyelid if it was only about me. But it isn't. I would lose friends if they didn't have it. The legacy system? I can see an upside, although it wasn't the content I was hoping for, and it's not that patch that will get me playing again. To me making another character is work, and something I like to do in between doing things on my max-level character. Having extra rewards for that in addition to having a character played strictly for fun in my own time is nice. I get that feeling with alts more than my main. I'm not one of those altoholics who has to get everything finished, geared to the max etc on every toon I make.

 

But I want to be able to do more on my max-level character. I want to see more flashpoints more regularly. I've seen some flashpoints and I would like the opportunity to see and do more. Grinding out HM's and ops is the grind of my choice. That makes you see me in a particular light and I can't help that. I've met people and been on the pointy end of what you're talking about, but it's been far from the norm for me, and doesn't mean I treat people like that. But it doesn't change what it is I like about MMO's. I would like it if there were places out in the world I haven't explored yet. But levelling up I didn't skip anything. There are very few missions I didn't do. I would like to be able to grind a system with reputation or similar. That was mostly done with my companions before I hit 50. Just Xalec to finish. I play a healer and I like to play group content and heal groups. I would like more than 2 daily quest hubs.

 

Do you think it's a good idea for James Ohlen to come out and say "sorry if you think you've done everything or are struggling to find groups of people with similar interests to play our game with but you're not putting enough into it so you're not getting enough out?" Maybe you do, but I don't. I feel there needs to be something more to keep players logging in every day beyond what other players put into the game to create it for you, which is essentially what staying for social reasons is.

 

So again, they've listened to what players don't want in a game, so what should be in a game instead which gets people logging in daily or at least regularly? How can you maximize the game to create a large core of players who would never think about unsubbing or taking breaks, who only don't play when real life prevents it?

[Blackardin]

Do you think it's a good idea for James Ohlen to come out and say "sorry if you think you've done everything or are struggling to find groups of people with similar interests to play our game with but you're not putting enough into it so you're not getting enough out?" Maybe you do, but I don't. I feel there needs to be something more to keep players logging in every day beyond what other players put into the game to create it for you, which is essentially what staying for social reasons is.

 

I don't think he would say this, but you are deflecting the argument and tossing a red herring out there rather then address the core issue. LFG is not a valid argument to be incorporated into this discussion. It has nothing to do with the concept we are speaking of.

[Blackardin]

Why even have leveling if this is the case? Its one of only a few things in the game that splits it from a single player game. IMO, any game that wishes to compete in the 'MMO' market needs to avoid anything this game offers.

 

Well, every single media outlet and game critic of worth and reputation would disagree with you here. Even Game informer, the number one gaming magazine in the world contends differently, calling this "the best mmo I've ever played".

 

I'm sorry, but we will have to just agree to disagree on this one.

 

I find the game to be very entertaining, the leveling to be extremely fun, and the "end game" as it is called, to be very fun, and very promising.

 

In short, I'm having a great time.

[Durasturan]

Do you even check the server list now and then before you use your fancy words.

Most of the EU to me looks like are all moving to one server, thats how much the game is growing.

 

I am no gloom and doomer but this game is not looking good sub wise and its getting worse everyday not better.

 

When my "opinion" flies in the face of incontrovertible evidence I normally ****, but I applaud you for choosing otherwise, it shows an impertinence found only in the basest and most backwards fundamentalists on earth.

[bheta]

I think the word the OP was looking for was "fluff"

[Thormart]

The moment SWTOR starts feeling like a grind is the moment I quit.

[Optrex]

Well, every single media outlet and game critic of worth and reputation would disagree with you here. Even Game informer, the number one gaming magazine in the world contends differently, calling this "the best mmo I've ever played".

 

I'm sorry, but we will have to just agree to disagree on this one.

 

I find the game to be very entertaining, the leveling to be extremely fun, and the "end game" as it is called, to be very fun, and very promising.

 

In short, I'm having a great time.

 

All the media outlets pretty much played for the 1st week before publishing their 'opinion'. I too was enjoying at that time. Considering most publishers critic is bought and paid for I would take anything they have to say with a large pinch of salt.

 

Yes, we can agree to disagree for now. In a few months we'll get a clearer picture of where this game is heading. If someone was taking bets on this games success, I would bet my house for it to be another MMO on the MMO failure list.

[GalacticKegger]

Personally I will continue to sub simply because I have gotten older and have taken a REALLY casual approach to SWtOR. It is exactly what I was looking for when I purchased it. That being said, I really can feel for those that are looking for a challenge/grind. They flew through leveling not because they were rushing to 50 but because there was no challenge along the way.

Actually, they flew through leveling because they were rushing to 50. Power leveling is simply how some roll. I dare say there isn't an MMORPG that will keep their attention for very long because their priority is more about instant uberdom and less about playing the game. While not necessarily a bad thing, they eventually wind up limiting their own options. Kinda like completing a 200mph drive through the country then complaining about not seeing any flowers because of how blurred everything was. Edited April 2, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Darnu]

I don't think he would say this, but you are deflecting the argument and tossing a red herring out there rather then address the core issue. LFG is not a valid argument to be incorporated into this discussion. It has nothing to do with the concept we are speaking of.

 

sort of doesn't. It's just that that's a potential grind in the game which is there but remains pretty much unaccessible. This game to me plays out like one giant grind-fest in that you grind to level up (no matter how you spin it, it's a grind - that's what's at the heart of it), you reach max-level, grind a little bit and you've done all the grinding there is. And all the content there is, for that matter. So without a looser grind to break up the more monotonous grindy grinds there's little to do but start all over on a different character. Is it that there's no grind in the game that's a problem? No.

 

The length of the grind involved to achieve goals? Remarkably quick - they even said 200 hours to reach max level - for an MMO. So now what? Admire the Fleet until the next content patch and hope this one lasts longer? Or start all over again. And when you've maxed out character limit for that server, then what? Start it all over again on a different server. So when should this cycle cease?

 

It feels like a cheap and nasty solution, actually. Kind of like a way of saying there'll never be a lot of content in the game. But do it on 20 characters and you'll be overwhelmed, so there's the illusion of as much or as little to choose from and it's up to you.

[greenleef]

The moment SWTOR starts feeling like a grind is the moment I quit.

 

Wow you would quit if they added something you had to work for.that's just sad

[greenleef]

Well my main question to everyone that's says everything is awsome and they love there easy content.

Why would you be against them adding things to keep other players besides you happy if they add it you don't have to do it.

Not everyone wants easy mode and if they did add hard stuff your ez mode will still be there

Edited April 1, 2012 by greenleef

[DieAlteHexe]

Well my main question to everyone that's says everything is awsome and they love there easy content.

Why would you be against them adding things to keep other players besides you happy if they add it you don't have to do it.

Not everyone wants easy mode and if they did add hard stuff your ez mode will still be there

 

I would have absolutely NO problem with that. None. Zip, zilch.

 

Only problem I can see is that I am not sure this game was MEANT to be "grindy" or "difficult" or "hardmode". In fact, I kinda think it wasn't. So, it's not a matter of "me" (or other players) being opposed to what is being suggested, it's more a matter of what BW's intent for the game is.

 

That said though, so long as the game doesn't all of a sudden turn into a grind-fest, I'm fine with "difficult" content being added.

[Lostkoss]

Well, every single media outlet and game critic of worth and reputation would disagree with you here. Even Game informer, the number one gaming magazine in the world contends differently, calling this "the best mmo I've ever played".

 

I'm sorry, but we will have to just agree to disagree on this one.

 

I find the game to be very entertaining, the leveling to be extremely fun, and the "end game" as it is called, to be very fun, and very promising.

 

In short, I'm having a great time.

 

Go listen to Game Informer's MMO podcast from a few days ago.

 

They have all quit playing SWTOR.

[Shzwinnng]

That is disgusting. Somebody who wants a grind.

 

I left my previous MMO because it wasn't fun anymore, it was a grind. Nobody wants to come home from a hard day and work some more. They want to enjoy themselves.

 

Not everybody is as hardcore as the OP, and this game was designed not to be hardcore.

 

I look forward to GW2 where i don't have to worry about freaks calling for more grind, because arenanet have stated simply that they loathe grinding in mmo's.

[Blackardin]

All the media outlets pretty much played for the 1st week before publishing their 'opinion'. I too was enjoying at that time. Considering most publishers critic is bought and paid for I would take anything they have to say with a large pinch of salt.

 

Yes, we can agree to disagree for now. In a few months we'll get a clearer picture of where this game is heading. If someone was taking bets on this games success, I would bet my house for it to be another MMO on the MMO failure list.

 

The fact that they are not "paid for" is the reason they are valid. Are we to argue that random guy A on the internet is a legitimate source of information, but those who's job it is to compare and report are invalid?

 

In a few months we'll get a clearer picture of where this game is heading.

 

 

First thing that you've stated that we can agree upon. It is virtually impossible to rate an MMO in the first month of play. It all boils down to the first few major patches, and how development proceeds over the first six months and continues over the first year.

 

Like a Chef, they are only as good as their last meal, at least to those that require instant gratification. However, the long term player will be there through it all unless the game takes a decided wrong turn as Wow did.

 

We will see.

[Blackardin]

Go listen to Game Informer's MMO podcast from a few days ago.

 

They have all quit playing SWTOR.

 

I absolutely will. I'd be very interested in both their action and reasons. I'm sure, based on past performance, they will hit on some very valid points.

 

Thanks for the info.

[greenleef]

I would have absolutely NO problem with that. None. Zip, zilch.

 

Only problem I can see is that I am not sure this game was MEANT to be "grindy" or "difficult" or "hardmode". In fact, I kinda think it wasn't. So, it's not a matter of "me" (or other players) being opposed to what is being suggested, it's more a matter of what BW's intent for the game is.

 

That said though, so long as the game doesn't all of a sudden turn into a grind-fest, I'm fine with "difficult" content being added.

 

Well yes they never said anything about hard mode but before launch and I can't go and copy paste it because I'm at work on a phone but its quated on many post bw said they knew what a sandbox was and the game would fall in the middle. Now no real challenge in pve is whateva I would like to see it but I don't hold my breath my only issue is pvp is only wzs now and with long que times I would like a little sandbox instead of trying to burn impresions on the fleet from runing circles

[Blackardin]

Well my main question to everyone that's says everything is awsome and they love there easy content.

Why would you be against them adding things to keep other players besides you happy if they add it you don't have to do it.

Not everyone wants easy mode and if they did add hard stuff your ez mode will still be there

 

 

Nightmare mode. Go for it. It's all yours.

 

If you want arenas for PvP, or Nightmare mode to be almost impossible, I'm behind you fully.

 

However, when your desire for hard mode content interrupts or alters the game for all others, that is when I would take exceptions. If you want the introduction of combat ad-dons that will trivialize current content and force-ramp all content as well as force all players to employ them in order to do their "easy mode" content, then I would be against that.

 

I've always contended that the the future of MMO play is in their ability to divide hard core from casual in all aspects of play, to separate gear and players in regard to PvP or Non PvP play.

 

The one caveat there is regarding the hard core player mentality. Although there is a goodly amount of hard core players that just love challenge, they, like the average casual, are a silent majority in their respective camps. Often, those screaming for "hard" content are simply looking for a way to feel more accomplished then others, and ego boosting exercise as a means of gaining something missing in normal life situations.

 

Case in point would be the arguments put forth in wow regarding lock-outs and the combining of 10 and 25 man raids as they did. With all except those previously mentioned honest hard core players, the vast majority of guilds fell apart when transforming themselves to the easier 10 man content. In short, they did not seek "harder content", but content that was just out of reach for all but themselves, and stopped there.

 

Sooner or later there will be an MMORPG that will solve this mystery. I hope I'm still playing when they do as I do enjoy both styles of play.

[DieAlteHexe]

Well yes they never said anything about hard mode but before launch and I can't go and copy paste it because I'm at work on a phone but its quated on many post bw said they knew what a sandbox was and the game would fall in the middle. Now no real challenge in pve is whateva I would like to see it but I don't hold my breath my only issue is pvp is only wzs now and with long que times I would like a little sandbox instead of trying to burn impresions on the fleet from runing circles

 

I'm happy to take your word for it.

 

I can understand why you would. If I got to the point where that was all there was to do, I'd go...do something else (outside the game).

[Thormart]

Wow you would quit if they added something you had to work for.that's just sad

 

repeating an action endlessly is not a synonym for hard work.

I don't mind a good challenge but I hate the endgame grind for gear. I usually get to 50 and start a new char. At my rate it should keep me busy untill the next expansion.