No Cross Realm LFG tool please!

[chaosdefined]

No offence, but half of the claims for x-server are assumptions. Just read back! some are funny to be honest!

 

x-server fixes the population problem in instances, thats it. remove that and add a server merge. This fixes the population problem in instances, PVP and in the open world.

 

So yeh, ill go with my assumptions that some people are only looking for ones loot.

 

Server merge wins hands down, hence why all MMOs do it.

 

Server merges are a short term fix. We have given plenty of facts as to how Cross Server LFD tools have improved gameplay and increased the games performance. You chose to ignore those and spout off wild claims about mythical communities and cry about that time a stranger on the internet was mean to you.

 

Other MMO's merge servers then their subscriptions are dropping too low. Yes it would be helpful, but it is only part of the solution, it is not the only solution.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Averran
comment on edited post

[DigitalPrime]

Feel free to post some of them.

 

partially Correct

 

No, it still doesn't fix the low level instance problem; those still become less and less used, no matter how many people are on the server. Cross server demonstrably fixes that.

 

No, what fixes the low level instance problem is new players. New players to each server. this is everyday MMO mechnanics.

 

How did all those MMOs before WoWs 2009 incarnation survive ey... it boggling!

[Reevax]

No offence, but half of the claims for x-server are assumptions. Just read back! some are funny to be honest!

 

x-server fixes the population problem in instances, thats it. remove that and add a server merge. This fixes the population problem in instances, PVP and in the open world.

 

So yeh, ill go with my assumptions that some people are only looking for ones loot.

 

Server merge wins hands down, hence why all MMOs do it.

 

This game needs X-server for the long run, like it or not.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Averran
comment on edited post

[ferroz]

Arh. so now the straw hat of "you cannot have enough people on a server to make groups at all hours of the day"

I notice that you can't seem to refute it, so you're just labeling it and dismissing it.

 

 

So server merges which has been around since MMOs, which have worked to keep the population thriving and content flowing is no good because of the times of the day. brilliant lol.

false; low level dungeons in mmos become unused over time. The population on even the most populated wow severs wasn't enough to make low level instances be used, but cross server lfg made them so commonly used that it's rare to run into people who haven't run low level dungeons since they added cross server lfd.

 

You can't cram enough people on the server to fix the issues low level instances and people running instances way off peak.

[Valkirus]

No offence, but half of the claims for x-server are assumptions. Just read back! some are funny to be honest!

 

x-server fixes the population problem in instances, thats it. remove that and add a server merge. This fixes the population problem in instances, PVP and in the open world.

 

So yeh, ill go with my assumptions that some people are only looking for ones loot.

 

Server merge wins hands down, hence why all MMOs do it.

 

All MMO's donot do server merges. WoW is one which has'nt. What they do is offer free and paid char transfers to other servers. This use to be common before they added the cross server Looking for Group feature. Now..it is only paid which I have noticed. With crosss server LFG tool, there is no need to merge servers.

 

TOR needs a cross server tool for finding groups for the same reasons WoW needed them.....to allow more game content more accessable to more players. Who by the way, also pay a sub. A same server LFG tool will be a good start, but eventually they need a cross server one to allow a bigger pool of players from which to form the groups.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Averran
edited quote

[chaosdefined]

Arh. so now the straw hat of "you cannot have enough people on a server to make groups at all hours of the day"

 

 

Brilliant, Just brilliant lol

 

So server merges which has been around since MMOs, which have worked to keep the population thriving and content flowing is no good because of the times of the day. brilliant lol.

 

A) Did you mean Straw Man? And if so you've got the definition of it wrong.

 

B) Why is that if there's multiple reasons for needing one, you start with this attitude as it's the one story that's constantly being changed?

[ferroz]

No, what fixes the low level instance problem is new players. New players to each server. this is everyday MMO mechnanics.

No, you can't count on having enough new players to keep the low level instances full. So even with new players, people won't generally use the dungeons because the gain/time isn't good enough to entice people into them. You either have to crank the exp rewards up ridiculously high in them to make it worth grinding them, or you have to make them ultra painless to use.

 

EQ went with the first solution to the fact that dungeons were unused: around DoN they doubled to quadruped the exp in the low level dungeons (particularly places like najena and solA) while simultaneously giving a big boost to both group exp, and for fighting stuff that was closer to your level instead of way under level in order to get people back in there instead of on the kunark express. Even then it was only partially successful.

 

That doesn't really work as a solution for games that have instanced dungeons with a quest system though: in games post wow, designers don't want to make it so that the best experience gains are from grinding mobs; it's just antithetical to the design of modern western mmos.

 

WoW went with the latter: near instant grouping for low levels regardless of spec due to how easy it is to heal and tank in low level instances = extremely high usage. No other game has come close to reviving it's old dungeon content the way that wow has.

 

How did all those MMOs before WoWs 2009 incarnation survive ey... it boggling!

they mostly kept niche markets of highly dedicated fans and slowly bled off subs. You can call that surviving if you want, but I think that's a bit of a stretch. Edited March 27, 2012 by ferroz

[Reevax]

No, you can't count on having enough new players to keep the low level instances full. So even with new players, people won't generally use the dungeons because the gain/time isn't good enough to entice people into them. You either have to crank the exp rewards up ridiculously high in them to make it worth grinding them, or you have to make them ultra painless to use.

 

EQ went with the first solution to the fact that dungeons were unused: around DoN they doubled to quadruped the exp in the low level dungeons (particularly places like najena and solA) while simultaneously giving a big boost to both group exp, and for fighting stuff that was closer to your level instead of way under level in order to get people back in there instead of on the kunark express. Even then it was only partially successful.

 

That doesn't really work as a solution for games that have instanced dungeons with a quest system though: in games post wow, designers don't want to make it so that the best experience gains are from grinding mobs; it's just antithetical to the design of modern western mmos.

 

WoW went with the latter: near instant grouping for low levels regardless of spec due to how easy it is to heal and tank in low level instances = extremely high usage. No other game has come close to reviving it's old dungeon content the way that wow has.

 

they mostly kept niche markets of highly dedicated fans and slowly bled off subs. You can call that surviving if you want, but I think that's a bit of a stretch.

 

You make some good points.

 

It is actually a point of fact that the pre 60s 5 mans in WoW were totally unused for a long time. This was huge issue for new players who would never be able to get groups for a pretty large amount of content. The LFG opened that up and not only benefited new players but helped people like me who wanted to level alts via 5 mans.

 

It was win win and actually boosted the server community.

[ferroz]

All MMO's donot do server merges. WoW is one which has'nt. What they do is offer free and paid char transfers to other servers. This use to be common before they added the cross server Looking for Group feature. Now..it is only paid which I have noticed. With crosss server LFG tool, there is no need to merge servers.

EQ didn't do server mergers until wow had bled off half it's playerbase...

[Averran]

Hello everyone,

 

We have recently had to clean up a number of posts in this thread that were in violation of our Rules of Conduct and wanted to remind everyone to stay on topic while avoiding the following:

 

• Personal Attacks or Insults.
   
  
• Creating posts for the purpose of derailing the topic, eliciting negative reactions or spreading false information.
   
  
• Replying in a manner that adds nothing constructive to the conversation.
  

 

We appreciate your cooperation in this matter and will continue to monitor the conversation. Above all else please remember that we are here to help with issues that come up, you need not respond to them and extend the argument. In short, flag don't flame. This thread is not being closed, please feel free to carry on so long as you abide by the forum rules.

[Valkirus]

I played Ultima Online when it first came out. Been playing WoW for allmost 8 yrs ( yes...I was in closed beta ). I use to raid a lot in WoW Vanilla, doing Molten Core, Black Wing Lair, Zul'Gurub, Ony, AQ..etc..etc. What I grew tired of was having to show up at certain times, put up with all the drama..the insistence of using vent, addons, mods..etc. By the time WOTLK came out..I was down to not wanting to raid at all.

 

But then Blizz added thier LFG tool..which I started to use with friends and by myself to great success. When they added thier Looking for Raid feature, I was so happy to be able to raid when I want to, without mods and addons, listenting to bad mouth talk in vent, etc. I am the guild leader of a guild in WoW and the LFG tool has had no negative impact on us at all. In fact, we have grown in numbers sence it was added. We often do raids together using the new Looking for Raid feature.

 

So donot assume too much. What you feel and have experenced is not a rule for all. If you donot want to use a LFG tool, noone says you have to. The hard core raiding guilds in WoW still do thier own thing as before the Looking for Raid was added.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Averran
deleted quote

[Reevax]

I played Ultima Online when it first came out. Been playing WoW for allmost 8 yrs ( yes...I was in closed beta ). I use to raid a lot in WoW Vanilla, doing Molten Core, Black Wing Lair, Zul'Gurub, Ony, AQ..etc..etc. What I grew tired of was having to show up at certain times, put up with all the drama..the insistence of using vent, addons, mods..etc. By the time WOTLK came out..I was down to not wanting to raid at all.

 

But then Blizz added thier LFG tool..which I started to use with friends and by myself to great success. When they added thier Looking for Raid feature, I was so happy to be able to raid when I want to, without mods and addons, listenting to bad mouth talk in vent, etc. I am the guild leader of a guild in WoW and the LFG tool has had no negative impact on us at all. In fact, we have grown in numbers sence it was added. We often do raids together using the new Looking for Raid feature.

 

So donot assume too much. What you feel and have experenced is not a rule for all. If you donot want to use a LFG tool, noone says you have to. The hard core raiding guilds in WoW still do thier own thing as before the Looking for Raid was added.

 

Yes you are right, I raid in WoW 3 nights a week to this day. The LFG/LFR had no impact on my guild. We are still all really close and we run hard-modes every week. All the LFR did was give access to people who can't raid as much as us. I was happy for that.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Averran
edited quote

[Seethreepeeo]

DOOOMMMM!!!

 

That's basically what I hear from the ani-x-server LFD people. The game will be destroyed by loot stealing, anonymous pre-teens with no sense on community or any other social skills.

 

Community is what you make of it. Having an LFD tool x-server or not won't prevent you from talking in general chat, making a guild, building your own group, or socializing in any fashion. It will however help you to fill the final slot in your group when you log in at off peak time and you and your 1 or 2 friends who happen to be on at that time want to kill a few bosses.

 

Granted the person you might pick up in such a tool might be just that, such a tool. But you have to take the bad with the good. Chances are that person you pick up might turn out to be a really nice and social person. Yes, the chances of you seeing that nice, friendly helpful PUG from another server are zero to none but was the time you spent with them not worth it?

 

Loot stealing and griefing are definitely going to be a concern but you can't let something like that ruin the game play for you. Grow a thicker skin and try for the loot again. It's not going to disappear just because some one stole it from you.

[Anzel]

It's sad to see that BioWare is caving into a few

the same way that SOE did. I can't believe we're going to see another Star Wars MMO collapse because of these people.

 

Anytime a small group of "players" influences the overall fun and accessibility of content the game dies just a little bit quicker. Paying your $15/month doesn't give you the right to dictate what other people should or shouldn't be able to do in the game. The fact that BioWare is entertaining these people is a really really bad sign for the game overall.

 

I'm not one who threatens to quit in every post (or every other post). I stayed with SWG from 6/23/2003 until the very last year. However, BioWare needs to take an official stance on this issue and the issue of how they are letting a few people control the game for everyone else.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Anzel

[chaosdefined]

Here's a positive story. I actually found my Guild through the LFD tool. Joined up for a run and by chance three other members of the party were from the same guild and from my server. We had a laugh running, chatting and even when we wiped we laughed about it. So after the run I asked about applying to their guild, as I was currently looking for one from having rerolled on a new server.

Spent a great time with that guild.

[DarthKhaos]

Ha that's a great argument. "Community has nothing to do with facts, it can't be proved, it has to be believed!".

 

com·mu·ni·ty [kuh-myoo-ni-tee]

noun, plural -ties.

1. a social group of any size whose members reside in a specific locality, share government, and often have a common cultural and historical heritage.
   
2. a locality inhabited by such a group.
   
3. a social, religious, occupational, or other group sharing common characteristics or interests and perceived or perceiving itself as distinct in some respect from the larger society within which it exists (usually preceded by the ): the business community; the community of scholars.
   
4. a group of associated nations sharing common interests or a common heritage: the community of Western Europe.
   
5. Ecclesiastical . a group of men or women leading a common life according to a rule.
   

In the context of the game it would be virtual location. The players with characters on a single server. Just as your town, city, little suburban area would be considered a community where you live. Some of the members of the community you will get along with some you wouldn't.

 

I don't understand how you can say a community cannot be proved? I can give you a list of names that is a sample of the community on any given server. There are numbers (we may not have accurate numbers) with the average numbers of members of the community on at a given point in time. Etc etc etc.

 

This forums is another form of community. So tell me why can't a community not be proved?

[chaosdefined]

com·mu·ni·ty [kuh-myoo-ni-tee]

noun, plural -ties.

1. a social group of any size whose members reside in a specific locality, share government, and often have a common cultural and historical heritage.
   
2. a locality inhabited by such a group.
   
3. a social, religious, occupational, or other group sharing common characteristics or interests and perceived or perceiving itself as distinct in some respect from the larger society within which it exists (usually preceded by the ): the business community; the community of scholars.
   
4. a group of associated nations sharing common interests or a common heritage: the community of Western Europe.
   
5. Ecclesiastical . a group of men or women leading a common life according to a rule.
   

In the context of the game it would be virtual location. The players with characters on a single server. Just as your town, city, little suburban area would be considered a community where you live. Some of the members of the community you will get along with some you wouldn't.

 

I don't understand how you can say a community cannot be proved? I can give you a list of names that is a sample of the community on any given server. There are numbers (we may not have accurate numbers) with the average numbers of members of the community on at a given point in time. Etc etc etc.

 

This forums is another form of community. So tell me why can't a community not be proved?

 

Please read the quotation marks in my comment which are intended as sarcasm towards the Poster I was quoting.

 

I had given the evidence showing that the playerbase in WoW actually grew after the LFD tool was implimented, he argued that evidence had nothing to do with what a community was.

[Valkirus]

Here's a positive story. I actually found my Guild through the LFD tool. Joined up for a run and by chance three other members of the party were from the same guild and from my server. We had a laugh running, chatting and even when we wiped we laughed about it. So after the run I asked about applying to their guild, as I was currently looking for one from having rerolled on a new server.

Spent a great time with that guild.

 

Good story. And also a good point that a LFG tool is not a evil thing which some think it is.

 

What some seem to forget is..if you are in a bad group..use the ignore feature and if one player is making it hard for the run...vote to kick them. And if worse comes to worse...drop the group and reque. All is not lost. Players need to be realistic about a LFG feature. The runs are not allways perfect and you do get bad players at times, but there are also tools to deal with those situations.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Valkirus

[ferroz]

com·mu·ni·ty [kuh-myoo-ni-tee]

noun, plural -ties.

1. a social group of any size whose members reside in a specific locality, share government, and often have a common cultural and historical heritage.
   
2. a locality inhabited by such a group.
   
3. a social, religious, occupational, or other group sharing common characteristics or interests and perceived or perceiving itself as distinct in some respect from the larger society within which it exists (usually preceded by the ): the business community; the community of scholars.
   
4. a group of associated nations sharing common interests or a common heritage: the community of Western Europe.
   
5. Ecclesiastical . a group of men or women leading a common life according to a rule.
   

In the context of the game it would be virtual location.

No, I'd say it's actually #1 ... the social group of any size whose members reside in a specific locality, share government, and often have a common cultural and historical heritage.

 

or even #3 a social, group sharing common characteristics or interests and perceived or perceiving itself as distinct in some respect from the larger society within which it exists. In this case, it's the server community, and the larger society is the game community.

 

The community that people are referring to is the social group, not the server.

 

I don't understand how you can say a community cannot be proved?

He's paraphrasing the person he's responding to, including some text that was in other posts (that's why that statement is in quotes). He's not arguing that communities don't exist.

 

specifically, I think he's ridiculing the arguments that are of the form "you don't have to understand; we believe it to be so"

Edited March 27, 2012 by ferroz

[Orizuru]

DOOOMMMM!!!

 

That's basically what I hear from the ani-x-server LFD people. The game will be destroyed by loot stealing, anonymous pre-teens with no sense on community or any other social skills.

 

Community is what you make of it. Having an LFD tool x-server or not won't prevent you from talking in general chat, making a guild, building your own group, or socializing in any fashion. It will however help you to fill the final slot in your group when you log in at off peak time and you and your 1 or 2 friends who happen to be on at that time want to kill a few bosses.

 

Granted the person you might pick up in such a tool might be just that, such a tool. But you have to take the bad with the good. Chances are that person you pick up might turn out to be a really nice and social person. Yes, the chances of you seeing that nice, friendly helpful PUG from another server are zero to none but was the time you spent with them not worth it?

 

Loot stealing and griefing are definitely going to be a concern but you can't let something like that ruin the game play for you. Grow a thicker skin and try for the loot again. It's not going to disappear just because some one stole it from you.

 

And they argue about these community issues as if they do not already exist without any kind of cross server LFG tool.

 

That's the big problem I have with this whole argument. The community problems exist whether you have the tool or not. Do they not read all the QQ threads about people needing on drops for companions? A LFG tool doesn't make these problems any worse than they already are, it just broadens a single player's exposure to them.

[chaosdefined]

 

He's paraphrasing the person he's responding to, including some text that was in other posts (that's why that statement is in quotes). He's not arguing that communities don't exist.

 

specifically, I think he's ridiculing the arguments that are of the form "you don't have to understand; we believe it to be so"

 

Yup pretty much exactly that. The whole argument about how the LFD Tool destroyed the community in WoW seems to be along the lines of "We believe it happened, even if the evidence says otherwise!"

[navarh]

The runs are not allways perfect and you do get bad players at times

yeah, but, what if that player is main cause of bad groups

 

than ofc all groups will be "bad" and you became another acolyte of anti-lfg religion

[Orizuru]

Here's a positive story. I actually found my Guild through the LFD tool. Joined up for a run and by chance three other members of the party were from the same guild and from my server. We had a laugh running, chatting and even when we wiped we laughed about it. So after the run I asked about applying to their guild, as I was currently looking for one from having rerolled on a new server.

Spent a great time with that guild.

 

My guild recruited a few players in the exact same fashion. In fact, we even recruited a raid tank in this manner. One of the guild's healers queued up one evening and met this amazing tank that was a lot of fun to play with and talked about looking for a raid spot. We told him we had an immediate opening for a shield tank and he paid for a server transfer that same day. He's been one of our regular tanks every week since.

[Valkirus]

yeah, but, what if that player is main cause of bad groups

 

than ofc all groups will be "bad" and you became another acolyte of anti-lfg religion

 

Huh? Not all groups are bad. Most in fact are filled with nice players. You can deal with the bad ones in a variety of ways. I know of....none who refuses to use the LFG tool in my guild for example. There are some on my server I assume who willnot use it. But none I know personally.

 

If a player is absolutely against using the LFG feature, they allways have the option to not use it and join a guild which does thier own thing in the game. Just donot let your opinion dictate to me how I should run raids and dungeons is all I am asking for.

[Valkirus]

My guild recruited a few players in the exact same fashion. In fact, we even recruited a raid tank in this manner. One of the guild's healers queued up one evening and met this amazing tank that was a lot of fun to play with and talked about looking for a raid spot. We told him we had an immediate opening for a shield tank and he paid for a server transfer that same day. He's been one of our regular tanks every week since.

 

Awesome!