Sniper DPS 1.2 seriously broken.

[PlagaNerezza]

Burst DPS = burst damage per second. If the shield is down for 9 seconds, my burst DPS for those 9 seconds needs to be high. Compared to sustained DPS which will be lower, because we have the choice to pick certain abilities with high DPCT.

 

You're knitpicking semantics when they're interchangable. Burst DPS = burst damage when referring to a window of time, which is what we've been discussing.

 

GS/marksman have high burst.

 

I am 39/11/0 and have sabatoge charge.

 

I can and do burst dead weakened targets.

 

We don't have the DPS output other classes have. I know the guardian build, sage can regularly post higher dps totals than my gunslinger. We are pretty close to maurders.

 

1.2 is supposedly tweaking maurders and nerfing some of those dps duel-spec builds. So I have heard.

 

My problem with the GS is and always has been its near impossible as the 1 class that should be kiting to actual kite an individual opponent. The next is I sacraficed utility for a pure DPS class and I am not seeing top end DPS outputs. That is not to say I am whining, but if you setup a class it should be reflective of the reality of the stated class objectives and if its not players should be able to inform you of the design flaws and actual ingame experiences with the class and get them addressed.

 

I can kill unshielded weakened sorcerers. If I have energy. The unlimited resource pool they have is going away but most can if heal specc'd survive my initial burst will live.

 

Summary,

 

Not top-end DPS.

No Kiting.

No Utility.

 

Worst ranged dps class I've played in an mmo.

 

Meanwhile I play my lvl 30 sage. It has dps/heals/escapability and the ability to get rid of dots. Plus in PVE you have heals/dps before my GS which needed a healer way before Hoth. My sage got his coming off Nar Shadaa. So like 3 planets earlier.

 

All in all I've found the smuggler to be clearly a class the developers have not spent any time actually playing.

 

He's really funny in pve and ranged dps in pve is way better than melee dps. So if you are currently looking to pvp a lot and want to be a dps class I would tell you there are at least 2 better options and sage is still until I see it on live the best ranged dps class in the game.

[ugig]

 

I wonder though if internal damage is calculated at the same rate.... I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that Snipers are the only class that uses internal damage for alot of it's abilities. If internal damage is not being calculated at the same rate that the other damage (ranged, tech etc) that would put us much lower than actual.

 

If this had anything to do with it, your MM specced sniper would be hitting better numbers than the others since MM is mostly physical (white) damage witha bit of tech (yellow) thrown in and nearly no internal

[Arrys]

I think some people are misunderstanding the OP and how parses actually work. He has said multiple times they had 4 snipers with all the different specs. Just to put it plainly, for them to be off by that amount on the dps parse, they would literally have to not attack for 30-60 seconds of a parse. So I highly doubt 4 very geared snipers were doing that, especially when the OP said he was working his butt off. Even if he slipped up and messed up a rotation it wouldn't be a 400-500 DPS difference. It was a 3-5 minute test so for the disparity to be THAT BIG there is clearly something wrong with the dps output of the class. So somewhere along the line, BW screwed the pooch with the Sniper yet again...

 

Or it could be the parser isn't functioning properly(Try to validate with another parser), or in changing numbers to not combine some numbers from sniper abilities could be getting lost etc....

 

You jump to the assumption you want and the data merits further investigation. it's not yet conclusive. But the purpose of publishing results is so others can test and one can compare and confidence in validity of results can increase or decrease appropriately.

[wessik]

GS/marksman have high burst.

 

I am 39/11/0 and have sabatoge charge.

 

 

Must be nice for smugglers to have a 50 pt build!

[Crankyhobo]

Bump - does ANYBODY have a 50 sniper on PTS?

[Brilito]

Not to be a dick by pointing it out, you do less damage than the oft nerfed Operatives.

 

I didn't get all my gear transferred over so I'm half Rakata other half Columi. Self buffed I'm doing around 1200-1250 DPS on my ACT parses over 5min fights on the target dummy.

 

Lethality does get a small DPS increase due to the 15% increase in DoT damage when a target is below 30% health talent that won't show up in your target dummy parses. Might not be any good for a Sniper though.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Brilito

[EugeneYap]

YOu have our OP sheild use it and stop whining, you guys are already very op, be happy they havan't nerf your OP shields yet

[Falser]

Eugene, are you talking about shield probe which absorbs about half of a sorc bubble and has double the cooldown, or the three minute CD that grants 15% dmg reduction that can be deactivated merely by getting us out of cover? I'm not sure why you think a class is OP because of either of these. It's not like snipers have a ton of utility without bubble shield, especially in terms of PVE. Unless you care to detail your points, throwing stones doesn't contribute to the conversation here.

 

Having said that, I think snipers are in a good spot, and the actual parses we'll see by large from good players optimally specced for 1.2 will be fine.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Falser

[Bivaccus]

YOu have our OP sheild use it and stop whining, you guys are already very op, be happy they havan't nerf your OP shields yet

 

 

Eugene, are you talking about shield probe which absorbs about half of a sorc bubble and has double the cooldown, or the three minute CD that grants 15% dmg reduction that can be deactivated merely by getting us out of cover? I'm not sure why you think a class is OP because of either of these. It's not like snipers have a ton of utility without bubble shield, especially in terms of PVE. Unless you care to detail your points, throwing stones doesn't contribute to the conversation here.

 

Having said that, I think snipers are in a good spot, and the actual parses we'll see by large from good players optimally specced for 1.2 will be fine.

 

yeah I'm not too worried.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Bivaccus

[EugeneYap]

If this had anything to do with it, your MM specced sniper would be hitting better numbers than the others since MM is mostly physical (white) damage witha bit of tech (yellow) thrown in and nearly no internal

 

Then go play wow and be a mage or hunter, blizz loves them

L2P they are Snipers are already very OP right now.

[EugeneYap]

Eugene, are you talking about shield probe which absorbs about half of a sorc bubble and has double the cooldown, or the three minute CD that grants 15% dmg reduction that can be deactivated merely by getting us out of cover? I'm not sure why you think a class is OP because of either of these. It's not like snipers have a ton of utility without bubble shield, especially in terms of PVE. Unless you care to detail your points, throwing stones doesn't contribute to the conversation here.

 

Having said that, I think snipers are in a good spot, and the actual parses we'll see by large from good players optimally specced for 1.2 will be fine.

 

Are aware that shield probe blocks out a huge number of skills?

[Ayestes]

Are aware that shield probe blocks out a huge number of skills?

 

Shield Probe grants us around 1500 - 2000 HP in an absorb bubble. It effects all abilities that hit us in the same way. While it technically blocks every single damage spell out there, overflow damage is still inflicted upon us. Effectively, using Shield Probe is giving yourself a very small heal that can go above your maximum hp.

[Falser]

Shield Probe grants us around 1500 - 2000 HP in an absorb bubble. It effects all abilities that hit us in the same way. While it technically blocks every single damage spell out there, overflow damage is still inflicted upon us. Effectively, using Shield Probe is giving yourself a very small heal that can go above your maximum hp.

 

That. If you find a 1500-2000 DMG shield overpowered, you've got bigger issues than sniper balance.

[DSafana]

Burst damage vs sustained DPS. Sniper/GS is Burst, not sustained DPS.

If you had a shorter term fight, 15 seconds max, the Sniper DPS would be greater DPS. If you have a long fight, then every other DPS class will put out better numbers.

[psi_overtake]

If you had a shorter term fight, 15 seconds max, the Sniper DPS would be greater DPS. If you have a long fight, then every other DPS class will put out better numbers.

 

Any data to back that up?

[Poe_]

Having said that, I think snipers are in a good spot, and the actual parses we'll see by large from good players optimally specced for 1.2 will be fine.

The parses we're seeing from a number of players are not fine according to the continuation of this thread on PTS.

 

Very early on this thread was continued in the PTS forums. Many have shared log data to substantiate the fears that MM dps on target dummies is substantially lower than other dps tree classes.

 

No Bioware response.

 

I urge those in this thread most interested in continuing the discussion with the data and experience of PTS 50s to check out:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=380085&page=23

 

There are a number of arguers that might suggest it's a lern2play issue, or that it wasn't an optimal rotation, and all sorts of other rabbit holes. Fact is an average number of parses are suggesting a large dps dip compared to other raid member dps output. Check it out and participate, maybe BW will finally reply to us.

 

Thanks.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Poe_

[Sylriana]

Has anyone tried comparing what the parsers are spitting out from the PTS to the Spreadsheets we were using beforehand to try to figure out why there's such a noticeable discrepancy?

[Tibbel]

Has anyone tried comparing what the parsers are spitting out from the PTS to the Spreadsheets we were using beforehand to try to figure out why there's such a noticeable discrepancy?

 

You're welcome to.

 

If you find a discrepancy, definitely bring it up so we/I can figure out what's causing it.

 

I myself haven't noticed a huge discrepancy. Abilities seem to be doing as much damage as predicted (for the most part), and the DPS that I usually see in the spreadsheet aligns pretty closely with what I've seen in combat logs (when the debuff stacking fix is accounted for).

Edited April 5, 2012 by Tibbel

[Falser]

The parses we're seeing from a number of players are not fine according to the continuation of this thread on PTS.

 

Very early on this thread was continued in the PTS forums. Many have shared log data to substantiate the fears that MM dps on target dummies is substantially lower than other dps tree classes.

 

No Bioware response.

 

I urge those in this thread most interested in continuing the discussion with the data and experience of PTS 50s to check out:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=380085&page=23

 

There are a number of arguers that might suggest it's a lern2play issue, or that it wasn't an optimal rotation, and all sorts of other rabbit holes. Fact is an average number of parses are suggesting a large dps dip compared to other raid member dps output. Check it out and participate, maybe BW will finally reply to us.

 

Thanks.

 

I'm holding off on a larger set of data before I make any firm judgment. A few parses here and there aren't sufficient for me to pass a verdict one way or the other under any circumstances.

 

I'm especially skeptical given my own output in comparison to other classes when I watch guide videos of operation bosses, and different guild kills on youtube. I know this isn't a good objective method of comparison, but something about snipers feeling as low as the results are coming back just feels incorrect when I put the two side-by-side.

 

To be fair though, maybe the people I'm watching in these videos aren't wonderful at their class. As I said, 1.2 will alleviate these doubts one way or the other.

[DSafana]

Any data to back that up?

 

I have a 64 valor Sniper and a 62 valor Marauder. I have tested by fighting on LIVE with my Son's account 58 valor OP healer.

 

Since as we all know there are no current logs on live I could only do 50 fights each timed attacks.

The Sniper can solo kill the op healer faster than the marauder 42 out out of 50 times if the healer just stands with no heals.

When the healer heals themself during the fight. (thus prolonging the fight. The marauder can solo kill the healer faster on every fight. Because this stage took so long, I didn't do 50 fights. After each was able to kill the healer 5 times I stopped. Each kill time for the marauder was faster than the sniper.

Edited April 6, 2012 by DSafana

[Poe_]

I'm especially skeptical given my own output in comparison to other classes when I watch guide videos of operation bosses, and different guild kills on youtube. I know this isn't a good objective method of comparison, but something about snipers feeling as low as the results are coming back just feels incorrect when I put the two side-by-side.

 

To be fair though, maybe the people I'm watching in these videos aren't wonderful at their class. As I said, 1.2 will alleviate these doubts one way or the other.

That's of course up to you to hold judgement. Keep in mind though, the parses and experiences we are seeing are coming from 1.2 PTS environments, with the new change to armor debuff stacking. You would not notice the problem in the current live environment. That's the whole point, 1.2 seems to be generating significantly low Sniper damage output likely due to the fact that so much of our damage is mitigated by armor in comparison to other classes that slice through it like butter (i.e. internal and elemental damage from tech/force using Sorcs, Mercs etc.).

[Tibbel]

That's of course up to you to hold judgement. Keep in mind though, the parses and experiences we are seeing are coming from 1.2 PTS environments, with the new change to armor debuff stacking. You would not notice the problem in the current live environment. That's the whole point, 1.2 seems to be generating significantly low Sniper damage output likely due to the fact that so much of our damage is mitigated by armor in comparison to other classes that slice through it like butter (i.e. internal and elemental damage from tech/force using Sorcs, Mercs etc.).

 

Arsenal mercenaries deal almost exclusively kinetic and energy damage, which is mitigated by armor. They have one tiny elemental damage proc that accounts for ~2% of their total damage. Of course, they also do have a 35% armor penetration self-buff they can use, but this doesn't magically make them ignore all armor.

 

Madness sorcerers also deal largely armor-mitigated damage (~73%), which actually puts them behind mercenaries in terms of armor penetration when mercs' self-buff is accounted for.

 

MM snipers deal ~81% energy and kinetic damage, and Engineering is about the same with Lethality substantially lower.

 

My numbers come from here.

[Poe_]

NM misread post ... Edited April 7, 2012 by Poe_

[Technohic]

Not sure if it has been posted, but how does full engineering DPS look on PTS? I see for full MM, full Lethality and MM/ENG hybrid but not just full Engineering. Specifically, one that also has the Ambus armor penetration.

[Aravanus]

Not sure if it has been posted, but how does full engineering DPS look on PTS? I see for full MM, full Lethality and MM/ENG hybrid but not just full Engineering. Specifically, one that also has the Ambus armor penetration.

 

No Ambush armor penetration talent but hopefully this is at least something for ya: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=3814489#post3814489