A look at healing numbers from PTS

[gramz]

These numbers were recorded tonight in 16m story mode explosive conflict. Your results may vary. These logs also do not count shields @_@

 

This is from our Zorn and Toth story mode kill.

 

http://i.imgur.com/RP0oc.png

 

These are from our Two Tanks kill

 

http://i.imgur.com/Yuald.png

 

Take from this what you will, just wanted to get some numbers out there for peoples comparison.

 

Once i get all our DPS logs uploaded I will make similar charts.

Edited March 26, 2012 by gramz

[hrelas]

It looks like the variation on healing pr. second has been brought quite close. I suspect the channeled HoT sorcs have makes it easier for them to top off a guy. The closeness could of course be a difference in skill, who knows, but at first glance it looks promising. Thanks for providing this.

[Blaac]

Appreciate the info, any chance you have this info broken down by skill? I think knowing where the pitfalls are coming into play can be extremely helpful. Being able to see which skills are living up to what they SHOULD be (or not) can be useful in identifying what skills need to be further adjusted.

[Zeita]

tyvm for this data gramz.

[kuey]

Those poor combat medics.

[Masturomenos]

Wow why any raid leader or organized pvp group would bring anything but a sorc to live when 1.2 hits is above me. Even if meters dont mean anything like people say with healing just the bad stigma and identity this brings to classes other then sorc heals is plain bad. This is what the ptr is for so any bh op healer can have proof that they need a head start on leveling a sorc.

 

I also dont mean this like sorcs need nerfed the issue is sorcs were playing fine before 1.2 and are now hurt after 1.2. The issue is bioware has no idea what it means when it said we need to bring other healers inline with sorcs. The nerf to BH was just beyond uncalled for and stupid. I hope the meters in game have a bar for how detached bioware is from its playerbase cause its getting higher and further each day.

 

Apparantly a off spec sorc and pre 1.2 medpacks replace BH's lol. Man bioware u guys must have really messed up on valentines day because there is no way uve been focusing at work so u must be focused on getting out the doghouse at home.

 

Sorcs got gutted, ops got aparently nothing, BH is now officially the worst healer in game and no more medpacks cause that make poor bioware devs jobs too hard.

 

So lets recap 2012 for BW. Worst ending possible in the history of fps, took until april to deliver content for a game supposed to be released in 2011, lied straight up about underlying changes to stats, officially posted on forums saying a nerf was to make their job easier and of course implementation of meters that prove their ineptitude at doing anything correctly the first, second or apparantly half a decade and 300 million dollars later. Goodnight.

[hrelas]

Wow why any raid leader or organized pvp group would bring anything but a sorc to live when 1.2 hits is above me. Even if meters dont mean anything like people say with healing just the bad stigma and identity this brings to classes other then sorc heals is plain bad. This is what the ptr is for so any bh op healer can have proof that they need a head start on leveling a sorc.

 

I also dont mean this like sorcs need nerfed the issue is sorcs were playing fine before 1.2 and are now hurt after 1.2. The issue is bioware has no idea what it means when it said we need to bring other healers inline with sorcs. The nerf to BH was just beyond uncalled for and stupid. I hope the meters in game have a bar for how detached bioware is from its playerbase cause its getting higher and further each day.

 

Apparantly a off spec sorc and pre 1.2 medpacks replace BH's lol. Man bioware u guys must have really messed up on valentines day because there is no way uve been focusing at work so u must be focused on getting out the doghouse at home.

 

Sorcs got gutted, ops got aparently nothing, BH is now officially the worst healer in game and no more medpacks cause that make poor bioware devs jobs too hard.

 

So lets recap 2012 for BW. Worst ending possible in the history of fps, took until april to deliver content for a game supposed to be released in 2011, lied straight up about underlying changes to stats, officially posted on forums saying a nerf was to make their job easier and of course implementation of meters that prove their ineptitude at doing anything correctly the first, second or apparantly half a decade and 300 million dollars later. Goodnight.

 

I'm pretty sure you have terribly misread the information.

[Masturomenos]

i see sorcs head by atleast 15% to 50%(of BH) still which is not 5% that would be normal. In a two tank fight i see them less ahead as im sure the assignments changed but still ahead by a good margin. Again these numbers are from great players take away their awesome skills add a normal player and those gaps double. The one stat i dont have to look at is the amount of effort each healer had to make to do that.

 

BH is the worst healer, OPs shine incertain fights but fail at other with as much of a difference as when they do well and sorcs are what you want in a raid.

 

I mean i dont see anything here showing that there is any reason to bring a bh or op over a sorc and thats what will happen im sure if they just stacked sorcs too it wouldve been easier to do anyway.

 

I mean do you see anything u idnt expect im sure pre 1.2 meters would look like that too as those amounts in % are basically what every warzone looks like at the end (i know its not exactly the same argument) usually sorc at 600k bh at 200 to 300k and OP either doing 400k or 100k.

 

Basically a sorc is about 100kmore effective healing output then OP or BH heals doing the same content and when there is only 300k worth of effective healing to do thats 30% better or 33.3 repeating for u math guys.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Masturomenos

[gramz]

Appreciate the info, any chance you have this info broken down by skill? I think knowing where the pitfalls are coming into play can be extremely helpful. Being able to see which skills are living up to what they SHOULD be (or not) can be useful in identifying what skills need to be further adjusted.

 

The data is all broken down by skill in ACT, but at the moment i have no way of importing it into excel other than manually, and the charts ACT makes are not very pretty.

 

I will try and find a way to do it and will post here if I do.

[hrelas]

i see sorcs head by atleast 15% to 50%(of BH) still which is not 5% that would be normal. In a two tank fight i see them less ahead as im sure the assignments changed but still ahead by a good margin. Again these numbers are from great players take away their awesome skills add a normal player and those gaps double. The one stat i dont have to look at is the amount of effort each healer had to make to do that.

 

BH is the worst healer, OPs shine incertain fights but fail at other with as much of a difference as when they do well and sorcs are what you want in a raid.

 

I mean i dont see anything here showing that there is any reason to bring a bh or op over a sorc and thats what will happen im sure if they just stacked sorcs too it wouldve been easier to do anyway.

 

I mean do you see anything u idnt expect im sure pre 1.2 meters would look like that too as those amounts in % are basically what every warzone looks like at the end (i know its not exactly the same argument) usually sorc at 600k bh at 200 to 300k and OP either doing 400k or 100k.

 

Basically a sorc is about 100kmore effective healing output then OP or BH heals doing the same content and when there is only 300k worth of effective healing to do thats 30% better or 33.3 repeating fo u math gys.

 

This is how I read the data:

 

In the first fight there was not a whole lot to heal. This is apparent because almost every healer except the merc has over 30% overhealing. This could perhaps be because of aoe healing keeping everyone alive. This ties well into the sorc peeking HpS on this fight, but not the other, and correlates well with the difference in effective healing. On the second fight there is probably less aoe damage, the off-sorc is overhealing like a boss, which would imply the other healers are topping everyone off quickly. The HpS on this fight is also much closer. However the effective healing graph does not show from 0 on the y axis and therefore at first glance gives a wrong impression, if you only look at the disparity on the bars. I suspect the merc is holding back, since there is not much to heal compared to how many healers are active. These numbers are by no means indicative of anything, although they are nice to have.

[Blaac]

The data is all broken down by skill in ACT, but at the moment i have no way of importing it into excel other than manually, and the charts ACT makes are not very pretty.

 

I will try and find a way to do it and will post here if I do.

 

Understood. And appreciated if you can accomplish it.

[gramz]

This is how I read the data:

 

In the first fight there was not a whole lot to heal. This is apparent because almost every healer except the merc has over 30% overhealing. This could perhaps be because of aoe healing keeping everyone alive. This ties well into the sorc peeking HpS on this fight, but not the other, and correlates well with the difference in effective healing. On the second fight there is probably less aoe damage, the off-sorc is overhealing like a boss, which would imply the other healers are topping everyone off quickly. The HpS on this fight is also much closer. However the effective healing graph does not show from 0 on the y axis and therefore at first glance gives a wrong impression, if you only look at the disparity on the bars. I suspect the merc is holding back, since there is not much to heal compared to how many healers are active. These numbers are by no means indicative of anything, although they are nice to have.

 

woops good catch on the axis of the 2nd effective healing graph, i updated it.

[hrelas]

woops good catch on the axis of the 2nd effective healing graph, i updated it.

 

Looks much better now :=)

[rkopczak]

but ... but, Sorcs are the worst healer in the game, unplayable and totally broken judging on this forum. Sweet tears must flow, please don't show proof they are still best healer in the game.

[RuQu]

Gramz, for those of us who haven't had the chance to run these encounters yet, can you describe them as pertains to healing? Can you also post your general gear level (ie mostly Rakata).

 

The HPS graph closely follows the total healing. Can we get an Effective HPS as well that takes out the over-healing?

 

As was mentioned, the first fight looks AoE heavy, judging by the large amounts of over-heal by the Sorcs and Operative who have HoT based AoE.

 

Can you also provide more info on the role of your off-spec Sorc? Was he healing as a DPS build, or does he normally DPS but switched to his off-spec for this run?

 

Thank you for the charts and data. I want to point out a caveat though:

 

It is important for people to realize the limitations of this type of data. If 1/4 of the incoming total damage is less than or equal to the HPS possible by each healer, we should expect them all to be doing roughly equal effective healing, with some exception for the awesomeness of Sorc AoE.

 

We should not expect to see any difference until the incoming DPS exceeds the throughput of a class. For example:

 

You have 2 classes:

A can heal for 1000 HPS

B can heal for 500 HPS

 

If the boss does 1000 DPS total to the raid group, you should expect to see 500 HPS from both healers and they will appear balanced.

 

Once the boss DPS exceeds 1000, you will see class A's HPS number increase, but class B will continue to only do 500HPS. Once the boss DPS exceeds 1500, you wipe.

 

So these charts show that in your level of gear, the boss is putting out damage that everyone can keep up with.

 

If you could, I would like to see plots from you guys running Normal Mode EV or KP, and then again running whatever the highest mode you run on Live is (NMM if I remember Cali's thread correctly). I hypothesize that your Normal Mode graphs will look a lot like these: fairly even with the exception of a slight Sorc advantage in AoE heavy encounters like the first boss of EV, and very even on a boss like the first in KP. Doing it on NMM will should show what class starts to hit their limits first and who takes up that extra weight.

 

Thanks again for all the work and dedication to testing.

[Hojdar]

 

You have 2 classes:

A can heal for 1000 HPS

B can heal for 500 HPS

 

If the boss does 1000 DPS total to the raid group, you should expect to see 500 HPS from both healers and they will appear balanced.

 

 

This is incorrect. With those numbers person a would show 666 HPS effective healing and B 333 HPS effective. If the boss does 1000 damage for one second, A will be able to heal double the amount of that 1000 damage that B will.

[RuQu]

This is incorrect. With those numbers person a would show 666 HPS effective healing and B 333 HPS effective. If the boss does 1000 damage for one second, A will be able to heal double the amount of that 1000 damage that B will.

 

For simplicity, assume two tanks taking damage and no raid damage.

 

Each healer is assigned a tank.

 

So long as the DPS on tank B does not exceed 500, there is no reason for healer A to switch to tank B.

 

Look at it differently again. Assume two raid groups. One team runs an A/A pair and the other a B/B pair.

 

If the boss DPS is 1000, both teams will show both healers doing 500HPS, even though we know class A can do 1000 HPS.

 

If the boss does 2000 DPS, team A/A will show both doing 1000 HPS, team B/B will wipe, and their logs will show them both doing 500 HPS.

 

Now let's go back to an A/B team. If tank A is at full health while tank B is at 90%, healer A won't waste a heal on tank B because it would result in healer B's next heal being over-healing. So long as the tank is not in danger of dying, you won't cross-heal. If tank A is full and tank B is at at 70%, then A probably will toss a cross-heal because the odds of over-heal are low. Due to healing assignments and efficient team play, healer A is artificially holding back.

[prochuvi]

so the sorc is 80 % better on aoe heals and 50 % better on single heal?

something new from that i have posting since the begginig?

15 days left on my game so 15 days to fix it or see you to 13 dollars each month

[TempestasSilva]

Thank your for the data, please keep up the good work.

[Blotter]

Who was assigned to what? Tanks or raid, etc?

 

Was everyone in full Rakata with relics? Equally geared relative to one another?

 

and perhaps most importantly:

 

WHO was getting healed by these heals? This all shows nothing about self-healing versus healing others.

 

I'm not knocking the data...is a good first step to trying to understand...but it's just raw numbers that don't say much about the actual changes in mechanics. I don't think very much can be gleaned from it other than to say "yeah, sorcs can still put out a bunch of healing...can't say to whom or what it required in terms of resource management, but the raw numbers seem ok...altho something is strange in terms of healing output with respect to the hybrid versus full-heal spec in the fight that's a ripoff of Twin Emperors."

Edited March 26, 2012 by Blotter

[Dramion]

Would love to see how much the sorc healer used consumption and how much damage he took. My guess in a 16 man ops the consumption doesn't have that huge of a impact as a 8 man ops would. I am a little happy to see that we can still perform but also would like to see a 8man with a sorc and a op/bh healer data.

[gramz]

Who was assigned to what? Tanks or raid, etc?

 

Was everyone in full Rakata with relics?

 

and perhaps most importantly:

 

WHO was getting healed by these heals? This all shows nothing about self-healing versus healing others.

 

I'm not knocking the data...is a good first step to trying to understand...but it's just raw numbers that don't say much about the actual changes in mechanics. I don't think very much can be gleaned from it other than to say "yeah, sorcs can still put out a bunch of healing...can't say to whom or what it required in terms of resource management, but the raw numbers seem ok...altho something is strange in terms of healing output with respect to the hybrid versus full-heal spec in the fight that's a ripoff of Twin Emperors."

 

Our healers play whack a mole really, with assignments being positioning, not who to heal. Thats not to say we dont say mercs/ops focus on tanks, sorcs raids, however crossover occurs and it is not one persons job to keep someone alive.

 

Our raid is primarily in full, remodded rakata with orange belt/bracers.

 

As for who was getting healed, that is essentially irrelevant. We killed the boss, so everyone who needed heals got heals. And without logs from every person in the raid and manually counting the heals in tab for each healer, we wont be able to determine that.

 

As to your last comment our "off spec sorc" was full healing spec, he was just wearing his DPS gear, since its just that.. his off spec.

 

Also two tanks isnt twin emps at all, and neither is zorn and toth, are you just saying "requires two tanks and tank switches = twin emps"?

Edited March 26, 2012 by gramz

[gramz]

Would love to see how much the sorc healer used consumption and how much damage he took. My guess in a 16 man ops the consumption doesn't have that huge of a impact as a 8 man ops would. I am a little happy to see that we can still perform but also would like to see a 8man with a sorc and a op/bh healer data.

Looking at two tanks only, if I'm interpreting the logs correctly (this damage appears as unlabeled damage in) it appears Ookini used it 9x and it costed 2907 HP each time, and arnold uses it 3x at 2839 HP cost.

 

I'm not sure if thats entirely correct, I will double check with them both later today.

Edited March 26, 2012 by gramz

[Tenthletter]

How stressful was the healing on the players themselves in Rakata gear?

 

What I mean by this is that the numbers are nice, but they don't really tell us how the encounters played out for your healers. Were there resource issues for any of them, meaning were they ever taxed to the point that they simply could not heal anymore? (having to use Consumption multiple times in a boss fight is intended for example, but having to stand around with no resources or ability to regen them is not)

 

Story Mode on this tier should be tuned for people in full Columni, so for your full Rakata group it should have been moderate to easy to pull off. Only thing that should have been challenging would be the first few pulls to learn the encounter.

 

Let me rephrase. Now that the encounter is down, how easy would it be to repeat in your current gear? With experience in the fight and essentially overgearing the encounter, it should be 1 shottable with ease moving forward with little stress on the healers. Did it feel this way to them, and if not why?

[RuQu]

How stressful was the healing on the players themselves in Rakata gear?

 

 

This is the #1 thing that logs (and I'm sure BW's metrics) fail to capture, and has a huge impact on the player.

 

Was Cali sweating the whole time while Draxxen was /clubdancing his way through the fights? HPS numbers alone don't fully capture this key component of balance, effort vs reward.