gwrtheyn Posted March 26, 2012 Posted March 26, 2012 (edited) Current_ -Added Crash, a new passive ability granted at level 10 that causes Force Charge to stun the target for 2 seconds. This effect cannot occur more than once every 12 seconds. Suggestion: -Added Crash, a new passive ability granted at level 10 that causes Force Charge to reset its cooldown if you are not within 5ft of the target after Force Charge.(maybe simple if force charge dmg not hit) if the target is root immune -> you will not land near em=Force Charge failed aoe kick hits you middel way=Force Charge failed jump pad in the way=Force Charge failed target on a higher pos with small space=Force Charge failed so with this you can try again if Force Charge failed,but only if it failed. Edited March 26, 2012 by gwrtheyn
AllanGand Posted March 26, 2012 Posted March 26, 2012 would much rather it be a 50% slow for 6 seconds.
Taybul Posted March 26, 2012 Posted March 26, 2012 Suggestion: -Added Crash, a new passive ability granted at level 10 that causes Force Charge to reset its cooldown if you are not within 5ft of the target after Force Charge.(maybe simple if force charge dmg not hit) I don't see this ever happening. Charge puts you where the target is immediately. You don't aim your charge and hope the target is still there after.
Darthshnooky Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 OP: i think you are mistaking the purpose of the Crash change. It is not intended as a buff with an inadvertent nerf. It is clearly intended as a nerf to overall Jugg performance in PvP. Which should say something about all the Juggs who used to get Crash as a one-point skill... They are not trying to allow us to better stay in range of enemies we charge, they are trying to reduce our ability to control enemies as effectively and alter the flow of CC in PvP in general. Maybe also convince us that our one gap-closer is not something we should use every fight... y'know, cause we have all those ranged attacks...
godagun Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 I was hoping they would give us a ability to jump to enemy target and not a jump attack.
dirtyv Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 I have a suggestion of what they can do with it....
Dvorte Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 Its a buff with a hidden nerf (very obvious if you understand the resolve system). Not only will this cause you to build a target's resolve too quickly as certain specs to maintain viable control, it is now nearly pointless to charge anyone with a full resolve bar. Why? Your stun effect will not trigger and now you will not even snare then. As a PvP immortal tank jugg my lightsaber feels like a toothpick to the enemy as it is, but at least I can maintain control e.g. Force charge snare, AoE slow, Backhand, Forcechoke - All of which, even if used consecutively will only fill the resolve bar at the application of the last CC. With the force charge becoming a stun, if will fill too quickly and now, not only will i be hitting with a foam nerf hasbro lightsaber, but i will lose my ability to maintain control of my target. So say you're fighting an assassin/shadow and they have a full resolve bar. Smart sins will dance in and out of close/mid range combat to take advantage of their ability to kite and still toss in damage. You get them close enough to death where they try to force speed away. Originally you would snare them and their force speed would peter out. Easy kill which capitalizes on the actual skill required by the other player to survive the encounter. However, now you force charge them while there speed is active and their resolve is still actively ticking down, what happens? Nothing. They get away and you try in vain to kill them with saber throw. Another example. Everyone hates operatives who are very skilled because they can tear through your heavy armor like paper. They also have their 15% run talent that is used in most of their specs for PvP. So same scenario, you manage to whittle them down close enough to death that they kite you around in a circle, once again skilled ones dance in and out of close/mid range combat. You being the smart jugg you are will back up when they at the maximum range of their effective kiting area so you can force charge them. Result - They most likely dodge the hit and just keep going if they have full resolve, leaving you annoyed and frustrated, ready to talk smack in general chat for them not staying still long enough for you to fight them. Upon closer inspection of the vengeance builds it also raises another alarm. When you force charge someone with the proper talents you are immune to cc for 4 seconds and take 20% less damage. But now the target will be stunned instead of snared. More inexperienced players will automatically blow their knockback/cc because they freak out when someone is toe-to-toe with them. This takes advantage of a player's individual skill and experience to know when to toss their opponent away from them. Now however, you will only effectively enjoy 1.5-2 seconds of your damage reduction and cc immunity if the target is successfully stunned. The end result? Even some inexperienced players are clever enough to throw their slow before their knockback so you don't just run back into their face with your saber swinging. So after they get out of the stun, they try to slow you. Doesn't work, but hey, that was their global cd so that puts them right around enough time to simply knock you back normally and laugh. There goes your cc immunity and reduction, its already timed out by a fairly terrible gimp disguised as a buff. Unless the resolve system is reworked we will continue to be less and less effective as our prey simply shrugs off the meager charge damage and continues to run away. There are very few selections at our disposal to close the gap effectively. While we may still close our gap our snare is gone, so we are useless against those with a full resolve bar. Enemy ball carrier in the fire pit with a full resolve bar? Used to be able to snare him with charge and more often then not the fires will devour him. Now if you tried the same trick you will simply make him and the announcer laugh as you melt in the fire and he runs away to score and dance on your goal line. Sorry for the wall of text, I just am very disappointed at this nerf along with our AoE threat nerf. I'm not sure exactly what direction this class is going in but it seems like our concerns were addressed and the reverse was applied. Juggs are obviously too overpowered so lets make their primary gap closer gimp and have them lose 35-60% of the hp simply trying to close the gap effectively.
Schwarzwald Posted March 27, 2012 Posted March 27, 2012 Current_ -Added Crash, a new passive ability granted at level 10 that causes Force Charge to stun the target for 2 seconds. This effect cannot occur more than once every 12 seconds. Suggestion: -Remove crash from the game fix'd
Mathai Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 This nerf is quite fair, you know. all the abilities to pull enemies to your location (assasins/bounty hunters) fill the resolve bar, while froce charge/leap never did. So, an enemy can't be pulled if his resolve bar is full, but you can still force charge to him. This is a matter of balance, that's all. Since right now, force charge/leap and sage's resque abilities are much much more effective in wz, especially huttball, than any other pull abilities.
Schwarzwald Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 This nerf is quite fair, you know. all the abilities to pull enemies to your location (assasins/bounty hunters) fill the resolve bar, while froce charge/leap never did. So, an enemy can't be pulled if his resolve bar is full, but you can still force charge to him. This is a matter of balance, that's all. Since right now, force charge/leap and sage's resque abilities are much much more effective in wz, especially huttball, than any other pull abilities. the problem is that you don't have 2-3 assassins/BHs pullign a guy all at the same time.
Darthshnooky Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 This nerf is quite fair, you know. all the abilities to pull enemies to your location (assasins/bounty hunters) fill the resolve bar, while froce charge/leap never did. So, an enemy can't be pulled if his resolve bar is full, but you can still force charge to him. This is a matter of balance, that's all. Since right now, force charge/leap and sage's resque abilities are much much more effective in wz, especially huttball, than any other pull abilities. Pulls change where the target is located -- it brings the enemy to you and can be used for things like pulling into a trap or off the edge of a bridge. Charge does not change the fight by moving a target, it allows us to start the fight. Charge is the ONLY non-spec reliant gap closer Juggernauts have. That's it. One ability. We don't have force speed. We are a completely melee class (ignoring our one attack we can use at anything considered "ranged") and need the gap-closer to get to our targets. There is NO reason to place any kind of penalty on it. We never asked for Push to refresh the cooldown on Charge. It was a nice change that was done to help boost our mobility in fights. This isn't speculation, we were told this and we were given the buff. This nerf seems to just work to undo the buff they gave us that we never asked for. It's mind-bottling (yes, bottling) and just absolutely unnecessary. Crash was an awful skill that the majority of PvP-oriented Juggs ignored because of the resolve penalty -- forcing it on us is just inane.
Schwarzwald Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 Pulls change where the target is located -- it brings the enemy to you and can be used for things like pulling into a trap or off the edge of a bridge. Charge does not change the fight by moving a target, it allows us to start the fight. Charge is the ONLY non-spec reliant gap closer Juggernauts have. That's it. One ability. We don't have force speed. We are a completely melee class (ignoring our one attack we can use at anything considered "ranged") and need the gap-closer to get to our targets. There is NO reason to place any kind of penalty on it. We never asked for Push to refresh the cooldown on Charge. It was a nice change that was done to help boost our mobility in fights. This isn't speculation, we were told this and we were given the buff. This nerf seems to just work to undo the buff they gave us that we never asked for. It's mind-bottling (yes, bottling) and just absolutely unnecessary. Crash was an awful skill that the majority of PvP-oriented Juggs ignored because of the resolve penalty -- forcing it on us is just inane. It serves no purpose in the game other then to fool bad players into picking a skill that hurts them more then benefits. Now they are just giving it to everyone and completely ruining some of the stun utility that Immortal had.
Darthshnooky Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 It serves no purpose in the game other then to fool bad players into picking a skill that hurts them more then benefits. Now they are just giving it to everyone and completely ruining some of the stun utility that Immortal had. Yep, which is one of the greatest strengths of Immortal in PvP. Between the instant choke and Backhand, you can really control the rhythm of a fight. This just makes it more difficult to do so and demolishes some of Immortal's utility. Not to mention the penalties to everyone else in a group due to overzealous Juggernauts. The other day i was respawning in Huttball, coming out of the box as a ball carrier was heading towards me. He was only about 2/3 resolve, and perfect spot for me to Force Push him down into the pit. Then some Jugg (apparently with Crash) leapt in and Stunned him, filling his resolve with the charge (no backhand or choke). He just ran in to the endzone at that point, because there was no way to control him. Immortal Juggernauts bring utility and battlefield control to a match -- the Crash change seriously damages that function. I love Immortal PvP, but i'm not sure i'll be able to stand it after 1.2 just because of this... time will tell.
Schwarzwald Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 Can you imagine when jug flavor of the month hits in 1.2 and EVERYONE is charging everywhere. Yeah, get ready for resolve caps everywhere.
Darthshnooky Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 Can you imagine when jug flavor of the month hits in 1.2 and EVERYONE is charging everywhere. Yeah, get ready for resolve caps everywhere. People are just gonna hate us. Some Juggs will think about what they are doing, charge carefully and adapt to the changes (begrudgingly). The vast majority, however, will still Charge ball carriers and similar targets, resolve capping in a wasteful way and generally make us all look bad. Thanks BioWare!
Morgond Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 I wish the devs would just come out and tell us whether they are purposely nerfing our force charge or not. Everyone can speculate on it whether its supposed to be a nerf or a buff but I would really like to hear it from the source. If it is just a buff gone wrong, a simple fix may be for crash to only work on weak and standard enemies like pommel strike and savage kick. If it is a nerf it would be good to know the general reasoning behind it.
Darthshnooky Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 I wish the devs would just come out and tell us whether they are purposely nerfing our force charge or not. Everyone can speculate on it whether its supposed to be a nerf or a buff but I would really like to hear it from the source. If it is just a buff gone wrong, a simple fix may be for crash to only work on weak and standard enemies like pommel strike and savage kick. If it is a nerf it would be good to know the general reasoning behind it. If it was a buff gone wrong, they would say so. IMO, silence = nerf. Everything about it just says nerf to me and most warriors. It's VERY rare that a buff goes through with an accidental nerf on it -- that's just not something that happens. A buff would've been making the CC immunity of Unstoppable baseline. This is a clear nerf.
Dvorte Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 This is obviously a horrendous nerf disguised as a weak buff. I can see the applications to PvE while leveling I guess, but lets face it, PvP is such a huge chunk of the game that it's not something to be ignored. It seems like the devs simply decided to do this without thinking of the full player base. On my server at least 80% of players actively participate in PvP, most of the 50 bracket understands the resolve mechanics (can't say <50). Yes you will occasionally run into those people that have no idea why they can't stun someone when their resolve is full, but now even experienced players will have to sit there and adjust their performance massively so as not to burn off their one gap closer. I don't want to have to los dance to get in range of someone who is throwing pebbles at me, I want to jump to them and begin to control the fight as immediately as possible. This nerf takes a huge toll on the more experienced player base, we fill the enemies resolve bar too quickly, we cannot snare a resolve capped enemy and other players will being to hate us even more as we not only decrease our own utility, but the effectiveness of the whole group. What happens when 3 warriors charge the same target all within 3-6 seconds. Well normally you'd have just that, a fight against 3 warriors, all whom still have the ability to force choke, push and possibly backhand, its not fun and of course you should get your *** handed to you. However now, the target simply laughs and runs away to the goal line, you lost control of your target, which is honestly one of the only things immortal juggs have at the moment besides some mobility which is obviously taking a hit. Ever been that awesome player who stopped the ball carrier right before the goal line? Like you see him, charge, move around since he's snared and throw him off of your goal line like a rag doll? Of course, being the smart player you are you didn't remain in their los so they could jump back to you. Sorry, no more last second saves for you, unless he's nowhere close to resolve capped, which honestly happens how much? How many times has a ball carrier gone from pick up to end zone without a single bit of resolve? Maybe it does happen, but it's certainly rare. He's up on the 3rd platform closing in on the goal and you're the only one in the area to stop him! You force charge from the 1st floor like a boss and smack him in the face - only to find out some other warrior charged him 2 seconds earlier and now he walks away to your goal line - nothing stopping him - especially not your rubber lightsaber if you're immortal tank. I don't really see how we are effectively supposed to combat ranged characters anymore. Immortal tanks rely on their control of the fight be effective, you completely lose that for a cheesy, worthless, resolve filling 2 second stun. I'm not saying the stun is hardly worth the resolve cost, I'm saying it definitely isn't worth the resolve cost. Why would I throw away the longer, heavier backhand stun, or the DoT stun from unchanneled force choke, for a 2 second worthless stun? Vengeance juggs don't want the enemy stunned right when they charge, they want them to stupidly blow their cc break on the snare, or their knockback while their unstoppable buff is active. Immortal tanks want their effective control - a fair trade for your lightsaber being as effective as a chopstick. I'm not sure where rage falls in line with this, perhaps it helps them as an individual, however PvP is anything but individual. You are gimping your team heavily by flying around in warrior fashion the way we always have. A jugg and an operative, Both are resolve capped. Good luck chipping off more than 50% while he kites you as he is naturally faster with a talent. Response? Nothing, there's not jack you can do until their resolve expires. Good luck surviving until then, even if you do, you're going to be in no shape to win that fight in most scenarios. Why get hit with nerfs on our main gap closer and aoe threat, when they we're already gimped for the most part anyway?
dirtyv Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 (edited) You take away an immortals stun/control and they are really hurting in the utility dept, I mean really hurting, which is essentially what this will do, and likely drive most to rage spec so atleast they can kill someone when their whitebarred. On top of that extending the aoe taunt to its full CD is one of the only other reasons we're even around lol... well, que sera sera. I cant believe it hasnt come up in the 10 questions of the week or whatever the devs do... I guess people are too worried about if they can make a chiss trooper or have same-sex relationships ingame... ugh. Edited March 28, 2012 by dirtyv
Morgond Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 well i am convinced it is a nerf now. i leveled a warrior to 10 on the PTS and when i picked the jugg AC and went to train i found that blade turning (passive) i had to pay credits to train but crash (also passive) was automatically trained instead of having the option to train it or not. i guess i was hoping all along that i would be able to just not train crash since it is totally FAIL
Darthshnooky Posted March 28, 2012 Posted March 28, 2012 well i am convinced it is a nerf now. i leveled a warrior to 10 on the PTS and when i picked the jugg AC and went to train i found that blade turning (passive) i had to pay credits to train but crash (also passive) was automatically trained instead of having the option to train it or not. i guess i was hoping all along that i would be able to just not train crash since it is totally FAIL No offense, but folks figured this out a week ago. That's why so many of us are raging over this thing... Glad to have you on board the Crash rage train.
coldserpent Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 You know, if they're going to add the Crash talent to the skill as a passive, the least they could do is make it so that when we land on someone, we knock them to the ground with a tackle(sort of like a talented Hidden Strike). I agree though. For PvP, it's a bad hit to Juggernauts, as it'll fill resolve bars faster. For PvE, as you're leveling up, it helps a bit.
Morgond Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 No offense, but folks figured this out a week ago. That's why so many of us are raging over this thing... Glad to have you on board the Crash rage train. none taken. btw all is right in the jugg world again crash has been removed from the game in todays PTS patch
Dar-Ell Posted March 29, 2012 Posted March 29, 2012 none taken. btw all is right in the jugg world again crash has been removed from the game in todays PTS patch wait what? Seriously? I knew I should have read those....
Darthshnooky Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 none taken. btw all is right in the jugg world again crash has been removed from the game in todays PTS patch Thank the Maker!
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