All this 1.2 QQin about NERFs...Wat about Ops/Scoundrel?

[irdc]

you

 

can

 

not

 

use

 

ANY

 

ability

 

while

 

stunned

 

get

 

it

 

through

 

your

 

head

 

So let me get this straight. You are saying that if you are stunned, you cannot use any ability. This includes any abilities that gets rid of stun.

 

Okay.

[goulet]

lol w/e noob stealth is a gap closer l2p ur class noob

 

how exactly is something that makes you move slower then someone who's in combat run speed is considered a gap closer is beyond me. The only way its a gap closer is when they arent moving, stay in the same general area, or are heading towards me. It's not a gap closer if it requires contribution from your target to be successful, even if they're unaware of that contribution.

 

other gap closers:

-Force charge:gap closer, takes you to your target (needs nothing from said target to make it work except to be in range)

-obliterate

-Bh charge:gap closer, takes you to your target (needs nothing from said target to make it work except to be in range)

-Powertech grapple: gap closer, brings the target to you (needs nothing from said target to make it work except to be in range)

-Force pull: gap closer, brings the target to you (needs nothing from said target to make it work except to be in range)

 

Funny story all of these actual gap closers, work outside of each classes primary damage range, and can be used in combat on cd's lower then 1 minute. Combat stealth =2 minute cd at best. all operative cc's/slows are only usable within 10m's.

 

An operative has to tools to help keep someone in range once they're at that their target, the problem is so do all the classes who have gap closers in addition. Bh has a slow from their ammo buff, juggs have a slow that can be spammed at no cost, assassins have force slow in addition to their pull and sprint. Operatives have a slow, and no gap closer.

 

from an operatives perspective, they're the only melee class to have no combat options afforded to them in terms of getting back in range once someone's outside of their melee range(provided you have the faculties to look at stealth as it actually works). When people site stealth as being sufficient the immediate response it to point out that assassins also have stealth, and also have an in combat stealth, but in addition have pull and sprint as in combat gap closers, where as the operative just has the stealth.

Edited March 29, 2012 by goulet

[irdc]

do you realize how far up the tree this is for operatives/scoundrels?? also do you realize that evasion works the same way?...........

 

Yeah, of course. My point was that a player can potentially save the "get out of stun card" for a scoundrel's stun and use other abilities to get rid of movement-impairing abilities. But people generally do not pick utility talents.

[Ryotknife]

Really? 15 sec Sprint isn't a gap closer? Go away!

 

that was countered by every single snare and CC in the game? with a game that had STRONGER and more longer lasting snares and with a sprint that was only half the speed of force sprint? where the only time sprint was useful was in stealth or with cloak of shadows?

 

hell if you want a stealth only sprint (not force speed), go for it. ive played as and against rogues. they were extremely hard for a person to get away from by himself, but if you did create a gap, they were in trouble (which is why rogues were weak against peeling) unless they had shadowstep.

 

now granted, i left wow in mid/late wotlk so maybe things have changed.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Ryotknife

[Izola]

besides the point, you are purposely adding moot points in order to try to skew the facts as much as possible.

 

you also forgot stealth, one of the best utility abilities in terms of overall use.

 

now, do ops suck at huttball? yes. their utility is not very useful there. but they are one of the best classes at civil war and void star.

 

Fine...I think this is a horrible arguement but you seem to think you know what you are talking about....Cough LOL Cough

 

Go back and read ONLY my posts. It exsplains in very easy way, The utility gap Ops/scounderls have. just because I CHOSE to make a HUGE and VALID piont later in MY thread don't come late to the party and tell me they are my only points....

[Izola]

that was countered by every single snare and CC in the game? with a game that had STRONGER and more longer lasting snares and with a sprint that was only half the speed of force sprint? where the only time sprint was useful was in stealth or with cloak of shadows?

 

hell if you want a stealth only sprint (not force speed), go for it. ive played as and against rogues. they were extremely hard for a person to get away from by himself, but if you did create a gap, they were in trouble (which is why rogues were weak against peeling) unless they had shadowstep.

 

now granted, i left wow in mid/late wotlk so maybe things have changed.

 

Buddy I'm trying REALLY hard not to be rude here....Is SPRINT A GAP CLOSER FOR A MELEE CLASS? YES

 

End of story...

[namelless]

Guys, guys, guys........Calm down, it was supposed to be a lighthearted inside joke for Scoundrels to enjoy, i didn't expect any of you to take it seriously.

[Izola]

Guys, guys, guys........Calm down, it was supposed to be a lighthearted inside joke for Scoundrels to enjoy, i didn't expect any of you to take it seriously.

 

Ya sorry I got that late...mybad brother.

 

 

NICE TROLL!

[namelless]

Ya sorry I got that late...mybad brother.

 

 

NICE TROLL!

 

I learned from the best(just check the original gap closer thread, it was full of those people).

[Ozzone]

But DPSers don't want defensive talents. They always pick offense ...

 

Corrected it for you. Couldn't help myself. I know because I'm a 50 operative DPS and I always choose offensive over defensive abilities if they warrant the increase compared to the amount of defense. No way would I ignore a good defensive ability if it's worth the points though.

 

For example, choosing extra endurance is defensive (has absolutely no impact on dealing more damage). I did not put 3 points into Inclement Conditioning to get a 6% increase in endurance or 868 more health. I chose instead to put those points into Infiltrator (movement increase +15% and increase stealth level by 3). That ability is a must for a concealment operative and to some degree is a defensive ability (since it makes your visible stealth range smaller).

 

The point is a DPS concealment operative is going to focus on primarily on damage increase since his true defense is killing the other player first. If he fails, it's because the other players has l2p and knows when and how to counter and he can be countered without top skill.

[Ryotknife]

Fine...I think this is a horrible arguement but you seem to think you know what you are talking about....Cough LOL Cough

 

Go back and read ONLY my posts. It exsplains in very easy way, The utility gap Ops/scounderls have. just because I CHOSE to make a HUGE and VALID piont later in MY thread don't come late to the party and tell me they are my only points....

 

the fact is, you have utility, quite a bit of it too. no other class can lock people down as well as an op can. and stealth single handedly wins civil war and void star.

 

unfortunately, neither of these things are that useful in huttball which focuses on mobility and group survivability rather than the ability to overtake a node.

[Ryotknife]

Buddy I'm trying REALLY hard not to be rude here....Is SPRINT A GAP CLOSER FOR A MELEE CLASS? YES

 

End of story...

 

fine, then according to your own logic, stealth is also a gap closer. i personally dont believe that stealth falls into the category of a gap closer for the same reasons i dont consider rogue sprint to fall into that category. but apparently you believe that stealth is a gap closer judging from your remarks about sprint.

 

if one can be a gap closer despite its harsh limitations, then the other can also be considered a gap closer despite its limitations.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Ryotknife

[Izola]

the fact is, you have utility, quite a bit of it too. no other class can lock people down as well as an op can. and stealth single handedly wins civil war and void star.

 

unfortunately, neither of these things are that useful in huttball which focuses on mobility and group survivability rather than the ability to overtake a node.

 

Again I feel like you didn't do your home work. 4m CC/stun lock while it is a form of utility is at the VERY lowest form. A shadow ALSO has a 4 sec stun lock BUT IT CAN BE USED AT 30m and a 2 sec stun lock as tank or a 4 sec CC as Infil.

 

I have writen all this and MUCH MORE, like I stated please READ what I have writen first, You seem to value your time and insist on NOT reading so I'm sorry but I will not REPEAT myself over and over to every new person that comes along. My time also has value. All be it prob just to me.

[Izola]

fine, then according to your own logic, stealth is also a gap closer. i personally dont believe that stealth falls into the category of a gap closer for the same reasons i dont consider rogue sprint to fall into that category. but apparently you believe that stealth is a gap closer judging from your remarks about sprint.

 

if one can be a gap closer despite its harsh limitations, then the other can also be considered a gap closer despite its limitations.

 

No According to MY logic a 15 sec speed inc IS A GAP CLOSER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Izola]

IS THERE NO ONE ELSE?

 

 

I dare ANYONE to counter ANY of my arguments with facts...ANYONE!

 

Like I've stated, I play a shadow (Swidgen) MAIN, But love stealth classes.

 

FIFTYSIX is the name of my WOW rogue feel free to look it up so you know I'm not talking out of school.

 

I have no DOG in this fight excsept to say I would love to some day play the Scoundrel/Op class at ENDGAME levels.

 

I love the IDEA of 2 (Rogue like) classes on the same game in the same fight and both bringing something to the Group.

 

ATM Scoundrels/Ops DO NOT have the UTILITY as a class to play in ENDGAME groups.

 

This is an opinion, BUT it is an OPINION from someone who has played AT TOP LEVELS!

[Ryotknife]

unfortunately ive countered every single one of your arguments with facts.

 

lets go back to sprint.

 

sprint, counterable by every single snare and CC in the game, will NOT close the gap most of the time BY ITSELF. a single snare would make you run at less than 100% speed.

 

if feral druids could not remove snares at will, they would be one of the lowest mobile classes instead of the highest mobile class even though they have a zero CD mini sprint available whenever. a slow sprint, by itself, will not close the gap in an environment with strong long lasting snares with almost zero opportunity cost.

 

as a rogue, you are more likely to close the gap with just vanish than sprint. if vanish/stealth has a HIGHER chance of closing the gap by itself than sprint, why do you consider sprint to be a gap closer but not stealth?

 

now if you were given force speed, thats slightly different. it is an extremely fast sprint which overcomes the snare problem to a fair degree.

 

if your whole definition of a gap closer is any ability which has a chance of being able to close a gap, then stealth would be considered a gap closer.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Ryotknife

[Ich_Bin]

unfortunately ive countered every single one of your arguments with facts.

 

lets go back to sprint.

 

sprint, counterable by every single snare and CC in the game, will NOT close the gap most of the time BY ITSELF. a single snare would make you run at less than 100% speed.

 

if feral druids could not remove snares at will, they would be one of the lowest mobile classes instead of the highest mobile class even though they have a zero CD mini sprint available whenever. a slow sprint, by itself, will not close the gap in an environment with strong long lasting snares with almost zero opportunity cost.

 

as a rogue, you are more likely to close the gap with just vanish than sprint. if vanish/stealth has a HIGHER chance of closing the gap by itself than sprint, why do you consider sprint to be a gap closer but not stealth?

 

now if you were given force speed, thats slightly different. it is an extremely fast sprint which overcomes the snare problem to a fair degree.

 

if your whole definition of a gap closer is any ability which may be able to close a gap, then stealth would be considered a gap closer.

 

Stealth is sort of a gap closer but it is ONLY usable at the beginning of a fight and ONLY usable when you are out of combat. It is also ONLY usable when your target is not moving away from you.

 

Assassins, Marauders and Operatives have stealth. Then the Assassin has got sprint and pull. The Sentinel has got leap on a short cooldown. The Operative has nothing. So which of the three classes has the better gap closing abilities in your opinion?

 

 

I am getting really bored arguing all day about whether stealth technically qualifies as a gap closer or not. It doesn't matter.

What matters is that Operatives/Scoundrels don't have nearly as much utility as they should have when it comes to endgame PvP and PvE. One thing that they could use to overcome their weakness in utility would be a gap closer. It doesn't matter if you would call it "their first gap closer" (if you think that stealth is not a gap closer) or "an additional gap closer" (if you believe that stealth is a gap closer).

Edited March 29, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[Izola]

 

lets go back to sprint.

 

sprint, counterable by every single snare and CC in the game, will NOT close the gap most of the time BY ITSELF. a single snare would make you run at less than 100% speed.

 

 

So 15 sec sprint isn't a Gap closer?

 

I think we are done here.

 

But that said I would understand what you are saying IF a MUTI rogue in Wraith Didn't AUTO PROC with no Global a SLOW effect. So the only class you WOULD NOT gain a GAP CLOSER on is a DK with Chains of Ice. A MELEE CLASS!

 

Trust me brother, a speed inc is a gap closer! You can look it up if you need to but when you have an ability as a class in INC the rate in which you move it is by DEFINITION a GAP CLOSER!

[Howbadisbad]

unfortunately ive countered every single one of your arguments with facts.

 

lets go back to sprint.

 

sprint, counterable by every single snare and CC in the game, will NOT close the gap most of the time BY ITSELF. a single snare would make you run at less than 100% speed.

 

Doesn't force speed ignore snares? Could be wrong, but I know it ignores the snare the huttball gives.

 

if feral druids could not remove snares at will, they would be one of the lowest mobile classes instead of the highest mobile class even though they have a zero CD mini sprint available whenever. a slow sprint, by itself, will not close the gap in an environment with strong long lasting snares with almost zero opportunity cost.

 

I don't think force sprint is affected by snare

 

as a rogue, you are more likely to close the gap with just vanish than sprint. if vanish/stealth has a HIGHER chance of closing the gap by itself than sprint, why do you consider sprint to be a gap closer but not stealth?

 

But this is SWTOR, where being seen for 20m away, and getting knocked out of stealth by the excessive ammounts of AOE is common.

 

now if you were given force speed, thats slightly different. it is an extremely fast sprint which overcomes the snare problem to a fair degree.

 

if your whole definition of a gap closer is any ability which has a chance of being able to close a gap, then stealth would be considered a gap closer.

If it was reliable, which it is not, in SWTOR.

 

Stealth is so weak in SWTOR due to how easily it is countered. Also, it can't be used once you are in combat, which is all the time since combat is so hard to drop in SWTOR.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Howbadisbad

[Ich_Bin]

Ryotknife stated that "Stealth is a gap closer" and "Force Speed is not a gap closer because it can be countered by snares/stuns".

..... Is it just me or are these two contradicting statements? Or maybe I have missed a patch note that said "Stealth can no longer be countered"?

[Ryotknife]

Ryotknife stated that "Stealth is a gap closer" and "Force Speed is not a gap closer because it can be countered by snares/stuns".

..... Is it just me or are these two contradicting statements? Or maybe I have missed a patch note that said "Stealth can no longer be countered"?

 

......actually i said sprint (specifically rogue sprint), but nice try. and ive mentioned multiple times that stealth is not a gap closer for the same reasons that sprint is not a gap closer.

 

i was the one point out the contradicting statements by people mentioning that stealth is not a gap closer but want a sprint for a gap closer when both abilities are nearly as effective at closing the gap by themselves.

 

also, force speed has a talent which removes snares. rogue sprint does have one as well, but down a tree that nobody specs into for pvp and hasnt specced into for the years that wow has been out

 

if there was a way to give you guys a gap closer for huttball and huttball only, i would support it. but giving you guys a gap closer in civil war and void star would make a very powerful class in those WZs even stronger.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Ryotknife

[Swidgin]

BAD PVP players always = NERF to burst classes.

 

Then they get the NERF bat and don't have the utility to play ENDGAME at the same level as other classes.

 

This has been happening in EVERY PVP MMO ever.

 

They find a balance after 2-3 years...lol.

[OdamanPrime]

I hear the best healer in the game is getting a buff next patch, but bads still whine on forums about utility. Good players will make op shine as they have been, bads will whine they are subpar and need ezmode. Nevermind when me and our scoundrel train someone they die in 3s. He beats me in numbers since my burst takes a few seconds to ramp up and by then the target is dead, when his burst is over mine begins so guarded targets still melt like butter. Pair op with something that complements its weaknesses and they become the most important part of a train. Edited March 31, 2012 by OdamanPrime

[Starfallest]

Fiftysix....Wow rogue....look me up....Trust me I know how to play my class, I've played against and with the greatest players in the WORLD.....YOU?

 

 

Second i play Shadow not a Scoundrel.....L2 READ.

 

And if you think stealth is a gap closer....well, L2 Play ANY MMO EVER

 

Every Stealth class EVER also includes some sort of gap closer.........EVER!

 

Does any other stealth class ever have the active ability to heal in combat which is clearly not an UTILITY to u?

 

Your class is not designed to have speed boost to maintain pvp balance, because it is the ONLY stealth class in this game that has the UTILITY to stunlock and drop people below 40% while also being able to effectively self heal in combat.

 

Name me one class besides druid in wow that can stealth, have burst combined with stunlock, have gap closer, and also be able to heal.

[Swidgin]

Does any other stealth class ever have the active ability to heal in combat which is clearly not an UTILITY to u?

 

Your class is not designed to have speed boost to maintain pvp balance, because it is the ONLY stealth class in this game that has the UTILITY to stunlock and drop people below 40% while also being able to effectively self heal in combat.

 

Name me one class besides druid in wow that can stealth, have burst combined with stunlock, have gap closer, and also be able to heal.

 

come on give um a gap closer atleast.

 

Poor Ops/Scoundrels