Gloom and doom? A perspective on 1.2

[Bazzoong]

Hi,

 

so since people are all doom and gloom I will try to put some perspective on the 1.2 operative changes as I see them. What I hope to achieve with this post is to get the more dedicated operatives to rethink their stance on 1.2 and lighten up a bit. So bear the "wall of text".

 

So generally my impression is that 1.2 changes in many cases serve the purpose of weakening hybrid builds for all classes (you may not like this but this seems to be by design).

They seem to try and do this by reducing the impact of talents cross AC trees. For operatives this mainly comes down to reducing the impact low/mid tier talents of lethality and concealment have on the overall damage of the other tree (mainly Lethality on Concealment though). Thus they reduce the damage contribution from the shiv and the crit talent in tier 1 of lethality for concealment and make sure lethality can not get a "free" backstab and add the talented lacerate high in the tree.

Similar changes happen to the AC trees of most classes. So this is a across the board change that does not only affect operatives.

 

The reduction of the +crit talents is universal to all classes but will have next to no impact overall since the stats on all gear (especially primary stat on new gear) will by far out do that reduction, you will end up with more crit rating than you have now, the reduction of the talent is likely due to that increase in stats on new gear remember it is a percentage increase it multiplies stat gain it can get out of hand pretty fast.

 

So nothing to worry about here.

 

As I have argued in other posts the 7.5 sec cd on HS will just make us change our attack sequences slightly 7.5 sec is about 4gcds if you have to blow cloak screen and what not within the 1st 4 gcds to win and are not able to fill those gcds with something useful and then cloak HS as a "finisher" then I am sorry to say this might not be the right class for you.

 

So nothing to worry about here.

 

The damage ajustments to the knife attacks will be more than compensated by the stat gain, with the way the stats work you will probably have a better damage to player hp ratio than you do now (this is mainly a pvp aspect though). I`ll elaborate this because it might not be so obvious. The damage gain by the stat gain, when you get better gear, always tends to out do the hp gain by the stat gain. This is because the stats that affect damage affect multiple ways you do damage, cunning for ex. affects not only bonus damage but also crit etc., while the hp stat endurance affects only hp flat. Also in this game you get more damage stats (cunning ect.) than hp stat (endurance) on the gear this again multiplies the damage increase with gearing up.

So you will have a better damage to hp ratio in pvp overall once you get the new gear. (PvE wise honestly who cares if you are the weakest dps in your raid as long as you can do the encounter, if your guild does not bring you on the char you chose because they want to play with you then you should find a new guild.)

 

So nothing to worry about here.

 

I hope I could lighten up the gloom with this "wall of text" and you could bear my reasoning, I am pretty sure I will have a blast with my IA in 1.2 and enjoy her just as much as I enjoy her now.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Bazzoong

[tacito]

While I agree with your statement that operatives will continue to be fun after the patch, I think there is a slight misunderstanding. Most people are not worried about the changes in and of itself. After all, even if everyone's damage output was reduced or increased by 90% (such as by acquiring better gear, as you proposed), that still would not change the overall picture.

 

The point at hand is always the state of one's class relatively to all other classes. As such, especially for operatives playing operations, it's frustrating to see other classes getting same results with less effort, or much better results with same effort.

 

Pedia over in the scoundrel forums had a parsing run with a sentinel friend. The sentinel ended up doing more damage without stims, adrenals or any other consumable, than the scoundrel utilizing basically every consumable available. Now imagine how that gap widens when the sentinel can jump to his target, while the operative takes a walk.

 

I think that is what most people are worried about. Class mechanics are one thing (and "fun" largely depends on the mechanics), damage is another. Even a 10% damage reduction won't hurt people like me, who run some hardmodes, play some PvP, but are never at the "bleeding edge" of things. For me, things won't noticeable change with or without the patch. Heck, without combat logs, we probably wouldn't even notice things like the missing 3% damage bonus on Culling.

 

Of course, things might change on the PTS. I really don't think Bioware is trying to "kill our class" or anything, that's crazy talk. They'll do the best they can to keep the game balanced, after all they want to keep those precious subscriptions.

 

But with all of the above stated, I still understand the sentiments of the more competitive players. What might be a minor nuisance to some, is a serious issue to others. No one likes to feel like he/she is only invited to an operation because the others feel oblieged to do so. If you are convinced that your group would have killed the enemy if only you played another class, that's nothing people are happy about. So, even if I think some posts are written unecessarily harsh, I understand why people feel the need to express their concerns.

 

We all want to have fun, after all. Pressing a single button over and over and topping all charts isn't fun. Pressing all buttons and not topping a single chart isn't fun either, though.

Edited March 23, 2012 by tacito

[Bazzoong]

I really do not understand the "topping" the charts for my hard work reward argument at all, even if you play on the "bleeding edge" of a game.

The question is can we do this (meaning complete the encounter or win the warzone) if you can do it the charts mean nothing if you can`t the charts mean nothing either.

 

If you think a sentinel is less effort for better or equal results, so what? I play this class because of it`s mechanics and it`s "feel". If I´d wanted to play a sentinel I`d play one.

 

Again if your guild does not bring you but the class you play you should find a new guild.

[Bazzoong]

Oh, one thing more because it might not be so explicit in my first post: Operatives scale with gear better than most classes (this is due to itemization and the way stats work for the different classes) so relatively speaking if all classes get the same percentage of stat increase operatives will come out on top almost, the only class scaling better is marauders.

[tacito]

Oh, one thing more because it might not be so explicit in my first post: Operatives scale with gear better than most classes (this is due to itemization and the way stats work for the different classes) so relatively speaking if all classes get the same percentage of stat increase operatives will come out on top almost, the only class scaling better is marauders.

 

That's actually interesting information :-) Never read it, doesn't mean it's not true - could you explain?

[Bazzoong]

I will keep this VERY short and just give you the pointers, actual damage numbers are created from base and secondary stats via multipliers, to understand who profits the most simply check the stats on the classes and their contribution, then think about those multipliers and the ways the classes do damage. The discrepancy is not that huge but it grows with the increase on stats. Edited March 23, 2012 by Bazzoong

[Sevrent]

Read the Assassin/Shadow patch notes for 1.2

 

They are untouched.......

 

Read the Marauder/Sent patch notes for 1.2

 

They got buffed.......

 

Now as far as I can tell, Sin's/Shadow's are already the "BEST" 1v1 PVP class in the game. Now take into account 1.2 Nerf for "every class" and wonder why you arn't a Shadow/Assassin.

 

The Doom and Gloom is justified and the reason why is that we are getting worse every patch, while the glow sticks are getting better or left alone. Concealment is going to be BAD if they leave these patch notes as they stand. Our competing class are just better...

 

I feel the Healing changes are going to be great though.

 

There's my 2 cents.

[tacito]

Yes, I am aware how multiplication works. Thank you. My question was, how and why do other classes benefit less from an increased chance to critically hit, critical damage or more power rating? Since I do not happen to have every AC lying around for testing, something apart from "look at it" would be much appreciated.

[Bazzoong]

My operative: 1713 cunning selfbuffed (in pvp gear I might should add), force user numbers on willpower are generally lower so the base for those multipliers is higher, if you increase those stats by 10% I will gain more than said force user.

On top of that Strength and Aim contribute to my performance quite a bit while said force user only benefits from willpower (yes I get more benefit from different datacrons) as the numbers on those multipliers increase the discrepancy increases.

The advantage is not that huge but it is there.

Additionally the "spike" nature of the way we do damage profits more from the overall damage to hp increase than the more equally distributed damage by other classes, since those "spikes" will be even "spikier" on the same few gcds while the other classes damage simply gets distributed evenly, "spike" damage is way harder to counter and the more the numbers grow the harder this will be to counter. (Remember what I said about the damage to hp gains with new gear).

 

P.S.: I do not what to patronize or anything, I just wanted to give my reasons why I think the "Doom and Gloom" attitude is misplaced.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Bazzoong

[EnochThompson]

All classes should be able to mitigate our initial dps burst just with the amount of utility they have.

 

Equally geared and skilled players can and do mitigate our damage pre 1.2, not only do the other classes have the same amount of cc's if not more they can mitigate the damage just with Bubbles, Armor, Run Speed augmentation, knock backs and snares, dont forget the defensive CD's most melee's have.

 

Ill give you one class for example:

 

Sorcs:

- Static Barrier can mitigate damage up to 5K; can root or blind if spec'd

- Whirlwind Stun

- Force Slow Snare

- Overload Knockback

- Electrocute Stun

- Force Lighting Snare

 

So the initial DPS I would do to a good sorc now is already laughable, lets see when 1.2 comes out.

Edited March 23, 2012 by EnochThompson

[Grapenut]

Here is my perspective.

 

Don't nerf unless your going to add utility.

 

nuff said

[Bazzoong]

Read the Assassin/Shadow patch notes for 1.2

 

They are untouched.......

 

Read the Marauder/Sent patch notes for 1.2

 

They got buffed.......

 

Now as far as I can tell, Sin's/Shadow's are already the "BEST" 1v1 PVP class in the game. Now take into account 1.2 Nerf for "every class" and wonder why you arn't a Shadow/Assassin.

 

The Doom and Gloom is justified and the reason why is that we are getting worse every patch, while the glow sticks are getting better or left alone. Concealment is going to be BAD if they leave these patch notes as they stand. Our competing class are just better...

 

I feel the Healing changes are going to be great though.

 

There's my 2 cents.

 

Shadow/Assassin already had the best spec nerfed (0effectively removed) which was a hybrid, they all play tanks now, which will be less effective in huttball as ball carriers as they are now, the hazards will do elemental damage, so no fire/acid immumity by force shroud anymore.

 

I got both classes geared at 50, if I had to delete one I`d delete the shadow, but that is my preference.

 

Tanks will never be nerfed due to pve you have to live with that, Marauders will be strong true but they already are and the buffs where to those tress that where the unused weaker ones, while the mainly used tree stays roughly the same.

[LeperJack]

This:

 

Again if your guild does not bring you but the class you play you should find a new guild.

 

Is as helpful and relevant advice as:

 

Lrn2Play N00B. QQ

 

How many other people do you raid with? 7? 15? Even on a simple flashpoint run you have three other people with you.

 

That is three to fifteen other people who also pay their subscription fees and have as much right to fun and enjoyment as you do. Monetarily, that's $45-$225 per month to your $15.

 

Just like you, as a paying customer, deserve to have a functional, useful, balanced set of mechanics to play under, those other individuals deserve to play with someone with a functional, useful player using a balanced set of mechanics.

 

If they choose to drag along a boat anchor to hinder their progress and add additional difficulty, then they should be able to do so, by all means--but they should not be forced to do so because you "gotsta be an operative" any more than they should put up with the Assassin tank who "will only ever use Wither and never uses any other ability/cooldown/attack/etc. because for roleplay reasons that's the only force technique they want to use."

 

Given the fact that BW's designers have chosen to use "gear checks" via enrage timers as their primary raid mechanic, relative performance is important, and if I'm relatively underperforming, then I would rather my guild leave me behind than spend all night long trying to carry me through content, because i'm not a self-centered and entitled *******.

 

"Viable" does not mean "fun." It does not mean "balanced." It may (sadly) mean "working as intended," even when it doesn't mean "genuinely working." I pay for fun. So do the people I raid with--so my Op sits on the back burner for now, until either the issues with the AC are addressed or everyone is geared enough on the toons they want to bring that they can afford to carry the albatross that is my Op.

Edited March 23, 2012 by LeperJack

[Bazzoong]

If your "friends" do not consider having you around more fun with you playing the class you like than playing with some random guy who is a bit more efficacious than you while you still could do the job in a "viable" way then I do not envy you those friends.

 

Efficacy does not equal fun. But hey, never mind each to their own views.

[Bazzoong]

One last thing to add because I think this might be of note. They said they will reduce damage of lacerate as far as I understand this it means the lacerate base damage not the number you will see on your screen since that is contrived of base damage and bonus damage with the various multipliers.

[LeperJack]

If your "friends" do not consider having you around more fun with you playing the class you like than playing with some random guy who is a bit more efficacious than you while you still could do the job in a "viable" way then I do not envy you those friends.

Respect goes both ways.

 

I deserve to able to complete content on whatever class I choose to play--as the game was sold to me with those exact expectations EXPRESSLY STATED by the creators.

 

However, when those creators break their word, my "entitlement" does not "entitle" me to drag down 7-15 other people's fun.

 

I am not more important than 7-15 other people. I am not so important that if the class i like to play is not effective that they should all have to work extra hard to cover the failure of the designers. I am not so important that if I can play another class which I have less fun with but can still have some fun with, and that fun will contribute more to the enjoyment of my friends rather than saddling them with the burden of overworking to make up for my lack, that I should do whatever the hell I want.

 

I earn my place as their friend. I earn my place in a raid. I earn my spot on the next raid because I'm not only looking to have fun but to make sure THEY have fun.

 

If you think "i pays my money and so all these folks should carry my non-functional hind end" then I do not envy your friends you.

[Bazzoong]

As far as I see all content has been already completed by all AC so far, so you got what you bought, it can be done.

 

I do not think that you bought a right to be as good or as efficacious as any other player and/or class, different people and classes are different after all.

 

That`s my 2c on it anyway.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Bazzoong

[subrosian]

You completely missed the biggest issue. What would be a modest reduction in PVP burst is a massive reduction in PVE DPS over a 6 minute fight. Sustained DPS rotations will now include Overload Shot for a net DPS loss over several thousand over the length of a raid boss.

 

This is an issue, and when you consider the loss of acid blade uptime, Lethality is the viable PVE spec.

 

So, of you bought into Operatives because you wanted to be a stealth / knife melee DPS in raids, you are not going to be happy with how the PVP nerfs have affected PVE.

[Bazzoong]

You completely missed the biggest issue. What would be a modest reduction in PVP burst is a massive reduction in PVE DPS over a 6 minute fight. Sustained DPS rotations will now include Overload Shot for a net DPS loss over several thousand over the length of a raid boss.

 

This is an issue, and when you consider the loss of acid blade uptime, Lethality is the viable PVE spec.

 

So, of you bought into Operatives because you wanted to be a stealth / knife melee DPS in raids, you are not going to be happy with how the PVP nerfs have affected PVE.

 

Honestly, I do think that lethality is better in terms of damage output even now, I agree with you that you will lose dps because of the reduced acid blade up time.

 

But several thousand points of damage per second loss? That is certainly not the case.

 

The question is not will an other class be more efficacious or will lethality have more dps, the question is can the encounter be completed with a concealment operative, I bet the answer will be yes for all encounters. So where is the problem?

[LeperJack]

As far as I see all content has been already completed by all AC so far, so you got what you bought, it can be done.

"Can be done" does not equal "can be done with equal effort."

 

Viable≠fun.

 

I do not think that you bought a right to be as good or as efficacious as any other player

I said nothing about players.

 

and/or class,

Okay, so i bought a right to be *******r than other classes? See, I don't recall seeing that on the box or in any of the official press releases. I recall some statements from the developers entirely contrary to that.

 

different people and classes are different after all.

Tautological statement is tautological statement.

 

However: Different does not need to mean "better" or "worse." One of the fundamental goals of game design is to remove "unfairness" in the mechanics of the game itself. Players are unequal enough, and no game needs to enhance that gap. Would you play a game of chess where the opposing player starts with a board full of queens? Checkers where the opponent moves twice for every move you make? Would you play a sport where the opposing team need only walk across a line to score, while you were playing pitz? (the mayan version of basketball... incredibly difficult)

 

If you think inequity in efficacy of classes is a good design precept, then who deserves to suck? Which group of people deserves to be the most disadvantaged in the game? And, more importantly, WHY?

 

Disadvantaged classes lead to "bring the class, not the player," which seems to be the opposite of what you've been preaching.

 

That`s my 2c on it anyway.

That and another 65¢ will get me a coke from the machine.

[LeperJack]

But several thousand points of damage per second loss? That is certainly not the case.

He said several thousand over the course of a boss fight, not per second.

 

Several thousand damage over the course of a fight is enough for me to say "I think I'll play my Marauder or Assassin so my friends aren't having to carry me."

 

The question is not will an other class be more efficacious or will lethality have more dps, the question is can the encounter be completed with a concealment operative, I bet the answer will be yes for all encounters. So where is the problem?

No.

 

The question is: "if this can be completed by all classes, but we have a much better chance of doing so, doing it faster, with less expense of resources including repair bills and consumables which we are having to spend non-raid time grinding to get which is patently un-fun for the majority of the players, then why would we subject ourselves to additional non-fun play so someone calling themselves a "friend" can have slightly less fun than they would playing another class? And why would I, as a player of that ineffective class, subject 7-15 of my friends to even one extra hour each of grinding per week when I can just play another class?"

Edited March 23, 2012 by LeperJack

[Fearine]

On top of that Strength and Aim contribute to my performance quite a bit

 

Do I miss something here or you just wanted to post at Marauder's section?

[Ahebish]

This:

 

 

 

Is as helpful and relevant advice as:

 

 

 

How many other people do you raid with? 7? 15? Even on a simple flashpoint run you have three other people with you.

 

That is three to fifteen other people who also pay their subscription fees and have as much right to fun and enjoyment as you do. Monetarily, that's $45-$225 per month to your $15.

 

Just like you, as a paying customer, deserve to have a functional, useful, balanced set of mechanics to play under, those other individuals deserve to play with someone with a functional, useful player using a balanced set of mechanics.

 

If they choose to drag along a boat anchor to hinder their progress and add additional difficulty, then they should be able to do so, by all means--but they should not be forced to do so because you "gotsta be an operative" any more than they should put up with the Assassin tank who "will only ever use Wither and never uses any other ability/cooldown/attack/etc. because for roleplay reasons that's the only force technique they want to use."

 

Given the fact that BW's designers have chosen to use "gear checks" via enrage timers as their primary raid mechanic, relative performance is important, and if I'm relatively underperforming, then I would rather my guild leave me behind than spend all night long trying to carry me through content, because i'm not a self-centered and entitled *******.

 

"Viable" does not mean "fun." It does not mean "balanced." It may (sadly) mean "working as intended," even when it doesn't mean "genuinely working." I pay for fun. So do the people I raid with--so my Op sits on the back burner for now, until either the issues with the AC are addressed or everyone is geared enough on the toons they want to bring that they can afford to carry the albatross that is my Op.

 

You sound just like George Z.

[Bazzoong]

Do I miss something here or you just wanted to post at Marauder's section?

 

On my Operative:

 

Strength contribution to knife attacks (melee), 0.61% crit 26.1 bonus damage.

 

Aim contribution to ranged attacks: 1.04% crit 25,76 bonus damage.

 

No aim or strength on gear just base and datacrons, I lack the +10 one because it bugs out for me.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Bazzoong

[Ahebish]

Honestly, I do think that lethality is better in terms of damage output even now, I agree with you that you will lose dps because of the reduced acid blade up time.

 

But several thousand points of damage per second loss? That is certainly not the case.

 

The question is not will an other class be more efficacious or will lethality have more dps, the question is can the encounter be completed with a concealment operative, I bet the answer will be yes for all encounters. So where is the problem?

 

Obviously you haven't done 16man NM where you have to beat an enrage timer.

 

Run it and get back to me about your DPS parse compared to lethality.

 

Until then it's nothing more than your opinion without factual evidence to back it up.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Ahebish