The Myth of the SW:ToR Story; No it can't support an MMO.

[Meldwyn]

See signature! I go in to some depth with regards to why end game suffers from the total disconnect in story/leveling and max level content.

 

Also, by virtue of story telling and virtual interaction the story will end (even if it says Interlude) so, in order to sustain the game, you have to be constantly adding to it (rapidly) for the game to stay relevant and interesting (for the story driven player base).

 

When game play is more the focus, the game can be sustained by repeatable experiences and achievements (i.e., MW3).

 

Unfortunately, SW is a story driven experience with only some focus on game play that is repeatable.

[Majestic_Jazz]

Could name you lots of MMO's that didnt last much longer?! Want me to?

 

My point is, people want to act like it is all over because 3 months in, SWTOR still has flaws.

 

WoW had flaws 6 months in.

 

Everquest 1 & 2 had flaws 8 months in.

 

That isn't important. What is important is that the developers fix these flaws over a period of time.

 

Even today WoW still has flaws but people still play it and enjoy it because Blizzard, while knowing that WoW will NEVER be perfect, still has regularly fixed and patched many issues.

 

Bioware has been fixing the game and adding updates. They are listening to feedback and adjusting accordingly, which tells me that SWTOR will be here for the long haul. Those MMOs that you might list that failed, had developers that did not listen and did not fixed the game accordingly, they just released the game and then let it be. That isn't what Bioware is doing with SWTOR.

 

1.2 will have LOTS of improvements but it will continue to have LOTS of flaws, but who is there to say that these flaws cannot be fixed in 1.2.2 or 1.2.3 or even 1.3 or 1.4?

 

People are just impatient and act like EVERY SINGLE ASPECT AND FLAW in SWTOR HAS to be fixed WITH JUST ONE patch! And if it isn't, then Bioware is lazy, Bioware isn't listening, Bioware blah blah blah.

 

------------------------

[Sparklehorse]

It's fun to see people who haven't actually participated in the endgame complaining about there being no endgame.

 

It's also fun to see people claim it's not an mmo.

 

My favorite is "bla bla bla it's a rpg coop game not an mmo bla bla bla."

 

It is that way if that's the way you play it.

 

Or the perennial "I spacebar through every dialogue and now I don't feel like it's MY story..."

 

If you want it to play like an mmo you have to play it like one. Make friends, join guilds, do things together with people you like, help others, be friendly.

 

Or be anti-social, expect everything to be handed to you "bla bla bla where is my dungeon finder bla bla bla" and then whine on the forums about how the game just doesn't "feel" right.

 

It would be funny if it weren't so damn sad...

Edited March 22, 2012 by Sparklehorse

[Orizuru]

I dunno about that.

 

It's dailies (initially useful, but *blurg* boring past a certain point and pointless past a certain gear/money point)

 

It's PvP (all instanced and usually Hutball - a game of TFC is probably more fun) and money will be nerfed from this in 1.2.

 

It's a very small amount of raiding (if that's your cup of tea)

 

It's very bad RvR (well sort of..... and Ilum is being moth-balled with 1.2 for who knows how long).

 

And lastly it's alting (which is very nice initally, but the same quests again and again get to you eventually).

 

 

 

 

None of that is especially engaging (compare to intial levelling), although equally none of that is much different to many MMORPG, just a bit more stunted than most (although removing and basically giving up on RvR is an appalling decision by Bioware IMO).

 

You missed my point.

 

I was wondering if the OP even gave end-game content a chance before he ran to the forums to complain about it. There has been a rather noticeable trend of players doing this simply because they are used to other more established MMOs that have multiple tiers of end-game content spread out across multiple content updates and expansions. It takes time for a new MMO to build enough end-game content for everyone.

 

The current end-game content isn't appealing to all the players. There isn't an MMO in existence that has managed to achieve that lofty goal though. I'm not trying to argue that point. I'm just trying to be certain that people are at least trying it for themselves and making their own opinions.

[Goretzu]

You missed my point.

 

I was wondering if the OP even gave end-game content a chance before he ran to the forums to complain about it. There has been a rather noticeable trend of players doing this simply because they are used to other more established MMOs that have multiple tiers of end-game content spread out across multiple content updates and expansions. It takes time for a new MMO to build enough end-game content for everyone.

 

The current end-game content isn't appealing to all the players. There isn't an MMO in existence that has managed to achieve that lofty goal though. I'm not trying to argue that point. I'm just trying to be certain that people are at least trying it for themselves and making their own opinions.

 

 

There isn't a lot to do though (there really isn't, unfortunately, unless you're making your own goals), all the posters/flyers are there advertising the required activities, but when you actually get to the activities, it often the ends up being pure lip-service.

 

It's like they rushed to get all the tick boxes ticked, but didn't take the time to develop them beyond there. Much like with space combat it might have been better to leave some things out altogether and make the rest more in-depth.

 

 

 

And the removal of RvR is completely baffling as that's one area that keeps people playing with relatively little Dev-time input. Maybe they are abandoning it for the reasons I mentioned above, but pulling stuff OUT of a Live game is much worse than not putting it in.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Goretzu

[Cernow]

The problem is that you want a definable CHANGE in your *gameplay* experience just because of the *roleplaying* choices that you make. At the end of the day SWTOR is an MMO, so splitting up characters across the galaxy because of their story area choices is a very very bad idea from a game design perspective. If you make a choice that alters your gameplay enough so that people who chose the other choice can no longer group with you, well, mission failed.

 

What you want is a single player RPG. Or pen and paper. Or to write a novel.

 

We're talking about the CLASS STORYLINE quests here. These are already designed to be done SOLO. You cannot group with anyone of the same class as yourself and different classes have different green instance entrances at different locations, so they are already split up.

 

So what does it matter if the class storyline missions branch and fork? These are SOLO missions by design already.

[CDSzafraniec]

So what if it only grants the illusion of choice? You still get to roleplay your character, and you only know that the choices mean nothing if you play the same class again. I've been very pleased with the class story. Better than most mmos, or even single player games.

 

And as for it being YOUR story? Really? Go get a job as a writer for Bioware...otherwise of course its going to be someone elses story. You cant create a game that will let you make any choice you want. It is impossible. You will play within their framework so they can build a game that works.

[Galbatorrix]

+1 this is the biggest problem for me. You feel like you are on a movie set, being directed by the film crew, told what to say, think what to think. Not that you are in a movie in control of your own actions and so you dont really build a connection to your character.

 

 

You're told what to say and do? Is that a joke? Do movies allow the cast to randomly kill people (or let them live) as they go along? Your characters personality is completely based off your choices in SWTOR. Unlike any other MMORPG out there where your character is little more than a shell that allows you to access gameplay content.

[Kendakon]

I like the story approach, but I think they painted themselves into a corner with it. Expansion content will be costly to produce which means there probably won't be much to it when they do add on to your story.

 

Things that would have made the story 100x better (and my biggest pet peeves with their approach)

 

Dark/Light doesn't matter AT ALL. in addition you are basically forced to follow 1 or the other because until 50 (where the story ends btw) there is ZERO gear for nuetrals for 2 slots. That's alot of stats to give up. I don't want to play some black and white charcter. I want my character to have... well, character!! On one Char I did pick up diplomacy specifically to counter this stupidity. The returns on Drak/Light points per mission is horrid, but at least I can play the character's convo choices how he should be reacting and still get to wear level appropriate gear.

 

There should have been story ties to Dark/Light (i.e. actual consequences to your choices) and even flips to the opposite faction available. I was fully expecting (well wishing for) my Jedi to get recruited and turned by a Sith Lord when I started choosing Dark options.

And let's face it, it wouldn't have even been that hard, once flipped you could just pick up that factions story at whatever level you were on. Sadly, what I got was hardly any notice of the fact that my Jedi is a complete monster, and the Jedi order just continues to train me and send me on missions knowing full well I'll destroy everything in my path without mercy. Talk about lore failure.

 

BH's and Scoundrels should have never been tied to a faction. they work for credits, end of story. Sure, you could give them the option to join a cause, but I was sorely disappointed that my scoundrel couldn't work for the empire and my BH was basically an imperial trooper.

-BH/Scoundrel should have been unique classes and kept neutral (or at least pick which faction when you start the char).

-Troopers should have been available as either (I want an Imperial 'Storm' Trooper).

-Same with Agents, I want to play an SIS agent.

 

Which brings up another one... There should have been a neutral faction. Call it Seperatist or whatever, but it should have been an option.

 

 

Honestly, I was expecting much better out of the story when I heard BW was making this MMO. Sadly, it seems they took every horrible example of what MMOs have become these days (and little of what makes them enjoyable) and crammed it into a story driven RPG and ruined both.

[Frostvein]

Lots of things thrown at me here, let me see if I can gather everything up - Let me also make it clear that I do like this game for what it is, but I recognize what it is not and most likely never will be.

 

 

Ok, I don't get this constant "TOR is not an MMO, it's a single player game" BS. It's a LOT like OTHER MMOs. Most people solo to level cap, then group for endgame content. (lengthy comment about grouping)

 

I'll try to explain why I feel this way (and maybe others do too)

 

1, Human interaction - Yes, alot of MMOs are solo to cap. But even still, the Areas are typically more full of life - I.E. human and social interaction. I'm on what I guess is a "Heavy Standard" server (not quite heavy [it once was] but full for a standard) I'm also a Pub. I saw less then 10 Imps the entire way to 50 leveling mostly during prime time and weekends. Some planets I didn't see any (Voss) and others I saw multiple (Tatooine)

 

Now, you can argue that "LOL, WoW doesn't have anyone in the leveling zones either!" and I'd be inclined to agree, except that at 2 months from launch they sure as hell did. There also were those areas where players naturally congregated (WoW - Tarren Mill, Wintergrasp, Molten Front, the Isle. Rift had them afaik, I didn't play long enough to remember) Further, when each new expansion or content patch drops, the new areas are teeming with players. This isn't the case with ToR. Ilum? I've yet to see a group of Imps bigger then 5 or so during primetime, and barely any more Pubs. I Have actually only run into two Imps outside of the middle area. Belsavis? 1 Imp when I was leveling. (He kicked my *** too) I haven't kept track, but I don't even recall seeing all that many Pubs, either I'd guesstimate 2-3 people per planet on average. The largest number of people I saw was 45 on Tython. Most of the time, I feel like I am the only person playing. Given how far apart the Pubs and Imps are from each other, this has to be by design. Is it possible that they fix this? Sure, I guess. But that would require them to consider it both a problem and a priority, and I don't know how they feel on either.

 

2, Completely Linear leveling. I've played 3 MMO's extensively (FFXI, WoW, ToR) and about another handful lightly. Nearly every one had multiple ways to level. Not the case in ToR. You are on your set character progression path. Sure, you can just do class quests and PvP/Instance level if you chose, but even that is on a predetermined path. You go to (planet that is designed for level 20) and you can do (instance that is designed for lvl 20) Its completely reminiscent of single player RPGS in that most of the time in that the game is on rails and you must follow the progression path.

 

 

This game uses the WOW model. It's has all of the basic that WOW offers with the exception of some features like RDF and LFR. SWTOR has a better leveling experience thanks to the story and WOW has a better end game experience thanks to those two features. This is the only current thing SWTOR is missing. The game needs more FPs and it needs a RDF. People simply got too used to grouping this way to bother trying to find pugs day in and day out. Once it does have this feature, WOW will have absolutely nothing on SWTOR.

 

This is what I disagree with. I suppose you can say its the same model as WoW (in that they are both technically Themepark) but to me its a different class and will remain so. Endgame in WoW and currently Rift from my understanding are much more complex in both PvP and PvE.

 

For PvE, someone else in this thread mentioned that Bioware knows that their endgame PvE was too easy and they are going to fix it. My contention is that they can't due to the artificial limitations they set in place of no macros and a third party combat log as well as the engine restrictions.

 

For PvP, as much as I hated Arena in WoW I understand how important is was for PvP to have a sense of progression. What is the progression here? BG till valor 50, get max level PvP gear, get battlemaster and then what? Run the same 3 BGS you have been running? There is no open world PvP to speak of, and no ranked PvP till next patch. I severely doubt they will add a ranked Arena, and I doubt even further they will remove the 4 person que from rated WZ's that are upcoming.

 

So, yes, I guess you can say its a Themepark MMO. I don't think it really qualifies. Too few people, too few options, and too few progression paths. Again, I like this game for what it is but I don't think its ever going to be anything other outside of alt leveling and some tacked on PvP/PvE that isn't fully fleshed out. I think once people accept this the level of complaints will die off and they will either find what they are looking for elsewhere or settle for what is here.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Frostvein

[Kindara]

Actually they took the RPG out, you dont roleplay and create your character, you are told a story, Bioware claims that it is my story but it is not, its Biowares story.

 

Thats typically what RPG's are. A story thats driven by a "GM" and the "players" take on roles in that story.

[Pepperawr]

I understand it.

 

But just call it like it is, we are telling you a story, insted of trying to sell it as my story, because, it isent.

 

SWTOR is a good game and i do enjoy it, i just wish it was abit more sandboxy

 

Bioware has said from day 1 this will be a story-driven MMO, not sandbox and has never hinted otherwise. There is only so much branching you can do with a fully voice-acted MMO before the project is totally unmanageable, and they've already delivered far more voice acting than anyone else ever by a long shot.

 

I don't understand people who come here and continuously beat their heads against this unshakable fact. It will never change! And many people like it this way.

[Frostvein]

Bioware has said from day 1 this will be a story-driven MMO, not sandbox and has never hinted otherwise. There is only so much branching you can do with a fully voice-acted MMO before the project is totally unmanageable, and they've already delivered far more voice acting than anyone else ever by a long shot.

 

I don't understand people who come here and continuously beat their heads against this unshakable fact. It will never change! And many people like it this way.

 

I think the OP's point is that you can't keep subs based on story alone.

[kevlarto]

Story is important. People will play a well-told story.

 

Take a look at what the backlash of Mass Effect 3's endings caused. It is even on the BBC.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17458208

 

Never have people been so engrossed in the story, that they feel completely ripped off at the ending and demand it to be changed.

 

They didn't care about the gameplay. They didn't care about the graphics and sounds. They cared about the story more. Yeah, all those people who think that this game is nothing more than "kill 10 boars with cutscenes and voice conversations"? Story does matter.

 

A story is a good incentive to play a game. And I don't blame Bioware for taking this gamble that it may work in an MMO.

 

I do hope that you are wrong OP, that story can't support an MMO. I hope Bioware proves people wrong.

 

I agree, plus it's an opinion, I like the story the game play, there are few thing I wish they would have went the extra step on, I have not played ME3 yet, but I really want to so I can see what this horrible ending is about, I kinda figure since it's a wrap on the MassEffect Franchise, they did not give players any options to end the game with thier own story ending. In my opinion story can carry an mmo, lots of new rp options to play around, and I am by no means a hardcore rp'er, immersion the story adds a level of immersion most mmorpg's do not have these days.

[Pepperawr]

I think the OP's point is that you can't keep subs based on story alone.

 

The person I responded to isn't the OP

[Goretzu]

Bioware has said from day 1 this will be a story-driven MMO, not sandbox and has never hinted otherwise. There is only so much branching you can do with a fully voice-acted MMO before the project is totally unmanageable, and they've already delivered far more voice acting than anyone else ever by a long shot.

 

I don't understand people who come here and continuously beat their heads against this unshakable fact. It will never change! And many people like it this way.

 

There's no story post L50.

 

It it had endless story I don't think there'd be an issue.

[Rzacron]

Actually they took the RPG out, you dont roleplay and create your character, you are told a story, Bioware claims that it is my story but it is not, its Biowares story.

 

A..fkn...Men!

[Pepperawr]

There's no story post L50.

 

It it had endless story I don't think there'd be an issue.

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree that there needs to be much more to do at 50 than watching your story intermission screen, and that is obviously a work in progress that is trying to be addressed by Bioware - majority of 1.2 content is new endgame stuff.

 

My argument was against people who are still oddly trying to fight to convert this game into a galaxies sandbox clone.

[Majestic_Jazz]

There's no story post L50.

 

It it had endless story I don't think there'd be an issue.

 

But there is content post 50.

 

There are what? 3 Operations

 

There will be 4 Warzones

 

There is Flashpoints

 

Oh....and there is also other characters that you can create. Who said you cannot do that? Also as the Legacy System expands, there will be more incentives to create new characters in different classes.

 

People like you act like there is EXACTLY ZERO things to do at level 50 once your class story is complete. If that is the case, then why am I still playing SWTOR literally everyday with enjoyment even though I hit level 50 in mid-January?

[Cernow]

You're told what to say and do? Is that a joke? Do movies allow the cast to randomly kill people (or let them live) as they go along? Your characters personality is completely based off your choices in SWTOR. Unlike any other MMORPG out there where your character is little more than a shell that allows you to access gameplay content.

 

The point some of us are trying to make is that there is no consequence if you do let people live or kill them, other than an email in your inbox describing what happened after. Rarely do you meet a character you spared again, rarely if you kill someone does any kind of consequence follow. And where it does, this was scripted anyway and you were forced into killing them. Have you not noticed that if the class storyline script requires a character to die, then you don't get the option to kill or spare them? You only get that choice if it doesn't matter to the overall pre-written story.

 

Essentially the storylines all railroad you to the same place.

 

Try using ESC on key storyline dialogues to see the different responses. What you'll see is this structure:

 

Stage 1 Dialogue.

This presents 3 choices.

 

Intermediate Stage

Your choice triggers an intermediate dialogue response. This may result in a further intermediate dialogue choices, or otherwise a short filler response from the NPC before they move on to the next stage. This is your cosmetic roleplay 'flavour' dialogue, but it has no tangible influence on anything that happens. You can be as rude and insulting if you wish and after a brief reaction the NPC will still continue on as if nothing has happened.

 

Stage 2 Dialogue

You get the same dialogue here regardless of you choice in Stage 1. The mission continues on along its railroad.

 

Of course with voice acting and cut scenes it is difficult to give players too wide a choice of outcomes and plot forks. But currently there are none of any note. No forks at all. Everyone ends up at exactly the same place. So it *is* like acting out a film script.

 

As for personality, our characters have very little that reflects our choices during the storyline. The odd title and some facial coprruption if we go DS (which can be switched off anyway). No special emotes, abilities or traits we pick up due to our choices. No variation on companions due to our choices. No consequences, period.

[Orizuru]

There isn't a lot to do though (there really isn't, unfortunately, unless you're making your own goals), all the posters/flyers are there advertising the required activities, but when you actually get to the activities, it often the ends up being pure lip-service.

 

It's like they rushed to get all the tick boxes ticked, but didn't take the time to develop them beyond there. Much like with space combat it might have been better to leave some things out altogether and make the rest more in-depth.

 

 

 

And the removal of RvR is completely baffling as that's one area that keeps people playing with relatively little Dev-time input. Maybe they are abandoning it for the reasons I mentioned above, but pulling stuff OUT of a Live game is much worse than not putting it in.

 

You do realize that we are each talking about completely different things right? I'm having a hard time following you because you are talking about what you think is wrong with end-game, whereas I was simply trying to ask if the OP even tried it for himself before forming an opinion.

[Macabakur]

Also, to the OP, maybe the problem is you are on your 15th (or 30th or 100th or whatever exaggeration is cool with you) alt character? Maybe you should take a break, go outside, play another game. I hear Mass Effect 3 has a pretty controversial ending, maybe you could play that and go rage on those forums? I'm sure you rage on quite a lot of forums. Anyways, calm down man and take a break from the game, it'll still be here later (contrary to what you may believe), and there will be more content for you to (hopefully) enjoy. If not, unsubscribe. Nothing lost. More MMOs will come out later this year that you and the hate groupies can complain about.

 

wow, how about you allow someone to voice their opinion without hating on it? just because you feel one way doesnt mean other people have to. sheesh, play nice for petes sake.

 

just for the record, I agree. At least basically, the end game is all but forgotten, it's all about the leveling experience. Which is cool, but there needs to be alot more diversity in the loot and what you can do post 50. if they could somehow make a fix to all this, then this game would be glorious.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Sireene
insulting

[Goretzu]

Don't get me wrong, I agree that there needs to be much more to do at 50 than watching your story intermission screen, and that is obviously a work in progress that is trying to be addressed by Bioware - majority of 1.2 content is new endgame stuff.

 

My argument was against people who are still oddly trying to fight to convert this game into a galaxies sandbox clone.

 

The thing is when story runs out (which it inevitably does), what do you do to keep players interested then?

 

 

 

 

 

But there is content post 50.

 

There are what? 3 Operations

 

There will be 4 Warzones

 

There is Flashpoints

 

Oh....and there is also other characters that you can create. Who said you cannot do that? Also as the Legacy System expands, there will be more incentives to create new characters in different classes.

 

People like you act like there is EXACTLY ZERO things to do at level 50 once your class story is complete. If that is the case, then why am I still playing SWTOR literally everyday with enjoyment even though I hit level 50 in mid-January?

 

I went through this before (above), there really isn't a lot.

 

They've ticked the boxes without actually fully developing any aspect.

 

And as I mentioned RvR is effectively gone as of 1.2, which is 1 less things to do.

[ACLucius]

I doubt many games had a lot to do at endgame in their vanilla state. I'm sure once they bring some kind of GvG system in where guilds can actively engage in battles with one another on a more massive scale, people will be happy.

[Space_Gimp]

Actually they took the RPG out, you dont roleplay and create your character, you are told a story, Bioware claims that it is my story but it is not, its Biowares story.

 

Wait... What? Does that statement even make sense?