Jump to content

Romance with a Jedi shouldn't be an option at all


Mangese

Recommended Posts

I suspect that the Force might amplify emotional responses and exert a great amount of influence over mental health amongst those who actively engage in channeling it. A Jedi (or Sith, for that matter) may be seen as overreacting in a particular situation (assuming they allow themselves to fully react) while a normal, non-Force using individual might not.

 

Considering the fact that the vast majority of dark-siders undergo massive personality changes when they succumb (I highly doubt that Darth Vader at the time of Operation: Knightfall could indeed be classified as Anakin Skywalker), I don't think that it's that much of a stretch to imagine that the Force itself is manipulating (whether by some indescribable intelligence or merely by design) the workings of one's mind.

 

Under this theory (which I like to combine with Darth Traya's view that the Force is some sort of deceptive and insidious god), allowing emotional attachments may be potentially and actually dangerous to a Jedi's well-being. However, certainly, there would be exceptions, individuals capable of handling the stress imparted upon them by such choices through their own strength of will, though, even so, I would imagine that they are far rarer than canon makes them out to be (at least over the span of the Order's history, from inception to and through the Legacy era).

Edited by Varangian
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 102
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Then there was the early quest where you are asked by 2 masters to "spy" upon 2 padawans suspected of being romantically involved - it kinda leans me towards my orginal idea that passion - romantic passion - leads to the dark side and is frowned upon during the current game timeline

 

But they weren't just in love they were crazies in love, totally different.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a Master Jedi, the option to have a romance companion offers you choices. You *could* make him hate you by being all mean and passionless. Since I tend to get into my roleplay, when my companion STOLE a kiss i wanted the option to /slap him.

 

I have always seen Jedi as "Vulcans". Sure, they "can" love; Spock's father loved and married a human. But it was still a controlled love. Passion is easily turned into an uncontrollable force.

 

But still, many think Jedi are unable to love, while that cannot be the case. Perhaps they have to simply choose carefully. Duty and honor must come first. How can a Jedi take the time, and energy to be in love when the galaxy and every orphan and refugee NEEDS something. A Jedi sacrifices the chance for love out of COMPASSION.

 

In a recent roleplay situation, passion may have been flaring but uppermost in my toon's mind was..NO! The Code! Honor! Duty!. And the thought that my toon would have to leave the order if she went down that path. So, the choice to stop was made. temptations are temptations because they feel good. A Jedi's strength must lie in his/her control. And the ability to sacrifice personal desires for the greater good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

its against the code - and where is does come up with companions its always a dark side option.

 

1. There are explanations given for how it might actually be allowed, at least during some of the romances.

 

2. It's not always a dark side options, in fact it hasn't had any alignment tied to it at all.

 

3. Playing a smuggler shouldn't be an option at all, it's against the law (smuggling that is). Or with less sarcasm, rules can be broken and options are good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess I agree with another poster if the council didnt enforce such things maybe people would not fall to the dark side. That early mission in Tython sure it exposed their immaturity but they were faced with giving up love to continue a path they believed in. Where as to me a better option would have been guiding them in their path and teaching them the dangers of giving into emotions without interfering with their love if its true.

 

If they didn't have to feel the need to hide in the first place who knows how beneficial it would have been for them. They were in the process of completing a quest together when you go to spy then narc on them.

 

 

And I honestly don't understand why Flirting with one companion on my sage was not considered remotely dark side but on my knight anything fun with Doc is a no no. I really am enjoying the light side but they do make the dark side tempting with all their rules and restraint when I do get around to playing a sith I have a feeling I may not look back towards the light why bother if everything I like to do as a Jedi is considered bad anyway?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Then there was the early quest where you are asked by 2 masters to "spy" upon 2 padawans suspected of being romantically involved - it kinda leans me towards my orginal idea that passion - romantic passion - leads to the dark side and is frowned upon during the current game timeline

 

Again, this topic just keeps comin up. Amazing.

 

This is PRE-RUUSAN REFORMATION. The Reformations took place in 1000 BBY, when the Council decided that too many of their order kept falling to the Dark; that their Order could not be trusted to follow the Code, and thus a more strict interpretation was needed. Thus we see the Jedi of the 'prequel' era. Monastic, celibate monks, who shun emotional connections, and largely stagnate for fear of straying to the Dark Side. This is why Anakin was needed, in fact, because it created an imbalance within the Force. While the Jedi stopped learning, stopped pushing the bounds of their knowledge, the Sith did not.

 

The quest you are speakin of annoys me precisely because it flies in the face of previously established Lore. But, then again, that brings up numerous other points and ultimately one devolves into an argument of 'Which Lore did Bioware use to create this story?' Bottom line is, the Expanded Universe allows for marriages between Jedi in this era. It holds those Jedi who devote themselves utterly to the Force - and, therefore, do not love or marry - as paragons. But there is no discouragement of pursuing relationships.

 

I suspect in order to maintain 'continuity' with the movies - which is what the vast majority of people will know of 'Star Wars' - they remade the Jedi of the films, with a few tweaks. Not everyone is as much a geek of Star Wars Lore as myself and others on these forums.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suspect that the Force might amplify emotional responses and exert a great amount of influence over mental health amongst those who actively engage in channeling it. A Jedi (or Sith, for that matter) may be seen as overreacting in a particular situation (assuming they allow themselves to fully react) while a normal, non-Force using individual might not.

 

Considering the fact that the vast majority of dark-siders undergo massive personality changes when they succumb (I highly doubt that Darth Vader at the time of Operation: Knightfall could indeed be classified as Anakin Skywalker), I don't think that it's that much of a stretch to imagine that the Force itself is manipulating (whether by some indescribable intelligence or merely by design) the workings of one's mind.

 

Under this theory (which I like to combine with Darth Traya's view that the Force is some sort of deceptive and insidious god), allowing emotional attachments may be potentially and actually dangerous to a Jedi's well-being. However, certainly, there would be exceptions, individuals capable of handling the stress imparted upon them by such choices through their own strength of will, though, even so, I would imagine that they are far rarer than canon makes them out to be (at least over the span of the Order's history, from inception to and through the Legacy era).

 

The Force merely brings out someone's true nature. Some people should never be Jedi. Yoda was ultimately right about Anakin, because Anakin was, at his core, still a scared child. He was one of the Jedi I mentioned that went Old Testament. His revenge was on the Sand People that killed his mother. Granted, I can understand why he did it. But afterward, he never once sought help for it. He simply went on about his business, and that seed of darkness (we call it PTSD) kept growing inside him. Even after he married Padme (who was STUPID to marry him after he admitted murdering all the Sand People in that camp), it was still just a downward spiral for him after that.

 

But... And you KNEW there was a BUT coming.... IF the Jedi would openly allow relationships, I still believe he could have been helped to deal with his loss and visions instead of keeping everything bottled up inside. He was borderline psychotic already, and all the events of Episodes II and III were just the triggers that sent him over the edge, imo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Again, this topic just keeps comin up. Amazing.

 

This is PRE-RUUSAN REFORMATION. The Reformations took place in 1000 BBY, when the Council decided that too many of their order kept falling to the Dark; that their Order could not be trusted to follow the Code, and thus a more strict interpretation was needed. Thus we see the Jedi of the 'prequel' era. Monastic, celibate monks, who shun emotional connections, and largely stagnate for fear of straying to the Dark Side. This is why Anakin was needed, in fact, because it created an imbalance within the Force. While the Jedi stopped learning, stopped pushing the bounds of their knowledge, the Sith did not.

 

The quest you are speakin of annoys me precisely because it flies in the face of previously established Lore. But, then again, that brings up numerous other points and ultimately one devolves into an argument of 'Which Lore did Bioware use to create this story?' Bottom line is, the Expanded Universe allows for marriages between Jedi in this era. It holds those Jedi who devote themselves utterly to the Force - and, therefore, do not love or marry - as paragons. But there is no discouragement of pursuing relationships.

 

I suspect in order to maintain 'continuity' with the movies - which is what the vast majority of people will know of 'Star Wars' - they remade the Jedi of the films, with a few tweaks. Not everyone is as much a geek of Star Wars Lore as myself and others on these forums.

 

Actually, the first reformation happened when the code was first rewritten. If you look back at KotOR which took place 300 years before TOR, even then they kept saying the same stuff about relationships being bad as in TOR. Now, as I've said before, special dispensation was granted on a VERY STRICT contingency for Jedi to marry and have children. And in the Prequels, it's even more draconian. The messed up thing is, the Jedi who fell because of attachments are actually very few. Many more succumbed because they wanted more power. But instead of addressing THAT issue, the Council decided to address the wrong issue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Again, this topic just keeps comin up. Amazing.

 

This is PRE-RUUSAN REFORMATION. The Reformations took place in 1000 BBY, when the Council decided that too many of their order kept falling to the Dark; that their Order could not be trusted to follow the Code, and thus a more strict interpretation was needed. Thus we see the Jedi of the 'prequel' era. Monastic, celibate monks, who shun emotional connections, and largely stagnate for fear of straying to the Dark Side. This is why Anakin was needed, in fact, because it created an imbalance within the Force. While the Jedi stopped learning, stopped pushing the bounds of their knowledge, the Sith did not.

 

The quest you are speakin of annoys me precisely because it flies in the face of previously established Lore. But, then again, that brings up numerous other points and ultimately one devolves into an argument of 'Which Lore did Bioware use to create this story?' Bottom line is, the Expanded Universe allows for marriages between Jedi in this era. It holds those Jedi who devote themselves utterly to the Force - and, therefore, do not love or marry - as paragons. But there is no discouragement of pursuing relationships.

 

I suspect in order to maintain 'continuity' with the movies - which is what the vast majority of people will know of 'Star Wars' - they remade the Jedi of the films, with a few tweaks. Not everyone is as much a geek of Star Wars Lore as myself and others on these forums.

 

I thought that the point of Bioware doing it in this era is the lack of boundaries to be held by. o.O I mean, 2,000 years before Ruusan, you don't think that some things change between then and the period of Ruusan? Maybe the Jedi Order was not as lax in the whole romance thing before the current war than they were around the time of Ruusan? Maybe because that Jedi who withheld from attachments were revered, so they thought that all Jedi should emulate it, if not by law?

 

At the same time, it could also be seen as having the relationship, behind their masters' backs to do it. That simply shows they are willing to cross boundaries that should not be crossed to indulge in their love, and as a result, it will lead them to the dark side.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Again, this topic just keeps comin up. Amazing.

To be fair, we don't even need to get into the whole 'this is pre-Ruusan Reformation' thing; while the Jedi Masters who give you that early quest basically are preaching abstinence, you gotta remember they're doing so to the Jedi equivalent of high school students. You, the player, and the two 'lovers' in the quest are all Padawans. It can easily be spun that the Masters are taking the hard line on relationships/attachments/etc because you're still Impressionable Youth with the ability to screw with peoples' perceptions and throw rocks at enemies with your minds. The boot-camp analogy earlier in the thread seemed appropriate, too. It's just not very evident in the rest of the game that the 'no attachments' stuff is mostly 'Padawan-only'.

 

 

Inconceivable!

But true, nonetheless. "There is no emotion, there is peace" doesn't mean "Jedi have no emotions at all and cannot love." That's a poor interpretation of it...an interpretation the stagnant, decaying Jedi Order of the Prequels would take, but not the very different Order of well over 3,000 years before the Prequels.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To be fair, we don't even need to get into the whole 'this is pre-Ruusan Reformation' thing; while the Jedi Masters who give you that early quest basically are preaching abstinence, you gotta remember they're doing so to the Jedi equivalent of high school students. You, the player, and the two 'lovers' in the quest are all Padawans. It can easily be spun that the Masters are taking the hard line on relationships/attachments/etc because you're still Impressionable Youth with the ability to screw with peoples' perceptions and throw rocks at enemies with your minds. The boot-camp analogy earlier in the thread seemed appropriate, too. It's just not very evident in the rest of the game that the 'no attachments' stuff is mostly 'Padawan-only'.

 

 

 

But true, nonetheless. "There is no emotion, there is peace" doesn't mean "Jedi have no emotions at all and cannot love." That's a poor interpretation of it...an interpretation the stagnant, decaying Jedi Order of the Prequels would take, but not the very different Order of well over 3,000 years before the Prequels.

 

The Order in KotOR and TOR isn't that different from the Order in the Prequels. The Order in the Prequels is just a bit more draconian. All I can say is, play through the Jedi Knight story and do the romance with Kira. You will learn all you need to know about how the Jedi handled relationships after the first reformation.

 

The Jedi never think ahead. If they don't like something, they ban it. Never thinking about the consequences. All they can see is "So and so fell because his wife was killed! We need to ban marriage!" or "So and so fell because his girl left him! We must ban attachments!" Herp derp derpity derp. :p

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In response to the OP's original post:

 

for all the talk about love, you seem to be missing one particular fact:

 

nowhere in the jedi code does it state that love is forbidden. It's been the decree of the Masters that has enforced THAT particular bit.

 

If it weren't for "love", Grand Master Satele Shan wouldn't EXIST. Regardless of whether Bastilla LEFT the order or not.

 

 

and if we want to really be uppity, anyone ELSE aware of a certain SIS agent who was the child of a certain Jedi Master, but has no force potential at all?

 

 

 

Also, let's flash forward a few thousand years to the era of the New Repbulic:

 

Luke Skywalker, wed Mara Jade.

Leia married Han, and yes, she IS a sitting Jedi Knight.

Corran Horn also is a married Master, as is Kam Solusar.

 

it falls to those who oversee the Order whether they feel love, marriage and relationships can be permitted for their Jedi. It is NOT part of the Code

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In response to the OP's original post:

 

for all the talk about love, you seem to be missing one particular fact:

 

nowhere in the jedi code does it state that love is forbidden. It's been the decree of the Masters that has enforced THAT particular bit.

 

If it weren't for "love", Grand Master Satele Shan wouldn't EXIST. Regardless of whether Bastilla LEFT the order or not.

 

 

and if we want to really be uppity, anyone ELSE aware of a certain SIS agent who was the child of a certain Jedi Master, but has no force potential at all?

 

 

 

Also, let's flash forward a few thousand years to the era of the New Repbulic:

 

Luke Skywalker, wed Mara Jade.

Leia married Han, and yes, she IS a sitting Jedi Knight.

Corran Horn also is a married Master, as is Kam Solusar.

 

it falls to those who oversee the Order whether they feel love, marriage and relationships can be permitted for their Jedi. It is NOT part of the Code

 

Not sure if Kyle married Jan, but there's another example. Granted, Kyle is more of a "freelance" Jedi, and a Grey Jedi in all but name, but there it is.

 

ALL good points, though! Now, the code is open to interpretation, and misinterpretation. I believe that a lot of the attachment and marriage banning of this (KotOR and TOR) era is because of the misinterpretation of the "There is no" portions of the Code. Specifically the Emotion and Passion parts. They equate Romantic Love with emotion and passion, so of course it must be BAD!

 

Completely agree that Satele is the best thing to come out of a Jedi union, no matter how many generations separate them.

 

And for the record, this being the last I'm going to say on this subject: The Jedi Council are the most closed-minded bunch of self-righteous holier-than-thou idiotic hypocrites in existence! If, in a future storyline post-50, they decide to kick my Knight and Kira out of the Order because we're married and don't meet their "qualifications" for marriage between Jedi, then I'll give them a huge "**** you all!" and go defend the galaxy in spite of them! :p

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The whole love issue (and really the entire code for that matter) is no different than modern religion in real life.

 

Using Christianity as an example, compare a non-denominational to an evangelical to a greek orthodox to a catholic.

 

They are all Christian. But they all have very, very, very, different interpretation on how the rules are enforced, which aspects are focused on, which rituals are observed, which tenants were social products of their time vs. actual dogma...

 

And account for the fact that regional variations exist. It can be expected that a Catholic in Rome will be slightly different than a Catholic in Vegas. So how different do you suppose a one-eyed one-horned flying purple people eater from Planet of the Crazies will be compared to a two-eyed two-armed banana eating silver back from Planet of the Apes?

 

Of course there are dogmatic variations, even within the Jedi Order (to say nothing of Jedi v. Sith).

 

TL;DR:

Just because the Pope says contraceptives are a no-no, doesn't mean all Christian denominations believe that (or even all churches within a denomination). Same for the Jedi - just because the council says it... doesn't mean that all Jedi within the order believe it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BZZZZT, totally incorrect interpretation of the code. It doesn't have anything to do with being emotionless, passionless robots, it's about how, when and why a Jedi acts.

 

"There is no emotion, there is peace." A Jedi does not allow his emotions to take control of him. Only when a Jedi is peaceful, and in control of his emotions does he act.

 

"There is no ignorance, there is knowledge" A Jedi gathers information before acting, he doesn't jump into a situation without weighing the consequences of his actions.

 

"There is no passion, there is serenity" A Jedi does not let his passions control him, only when he is serene can he understand the will of the Force and properly act upon it. He serves the Force and its will, not the other way around.

 

"There is no death, there is the Force" For a Jedi, there is no death. When one passes from this realm of existence, he becomes one with the Force, transcending death.

 

Nowhere in the Code does it say anything about not being able to love, or marry. In many eras Jedi were free to fall in love and marry as they see fit.

 

This, sir, is one of the greatest things i've seen come out of the forums...*slow clap*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I forget where I saw it, but one of the books states that Luke Skywalker felt that the restrictive nature of the code on emotions was actually partially RESPONSIBLE for Anakin's fall to the Dark Side as he and Padme were forced to hide their affair from the Jedi Order, the very people who could have best helped him. One thing is certain, the fact that Anakin was forced to keep his love a secret made Darth Sidious job in corrupting Anakin far the more easier.

 

One has to wonder what might have happened had Obi-Wan or Yoda had known about their love and given him council and protection, Sidious might not have been able to warp Anakin's mind as easily as he did.

 

Remember Anakin was destined to restore balance in the force, there was no mention about his fall to the Dark Side. He could have easily avoided that fate had he chosen to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nope. Starting the romance between Knight and Kira incurs DS points.

 

No it doesn't have to. There is a DS option, but you don't have to take it, and can still have a romance with Kira.

 

My Jedi Guardian at lvl 50 has 200 DS points, not one of them was earned in taking the romance story arc with Kira to the end.

Edited by VanorDM
Link to comment
Share on other sites

No it doesn't have to. There is a DS option, but you don't have to take it, and can still have a romance with Kira.

 

My Jedi Guardian at lvl 50 has 200 DS points, not one of them was earned in taking the romance story arc with Kira to the end.

 

Hmmm. I must have hit the wrong button. Oh well. Funny how it's easier to run a Warrior completely LS than it is for a Knight. :p

Link to comment
Share on other sites


×
×
  • Create New...