Everyone does not enjoy raiding

[DieAlteHexe]

This. Keep raids as the best/fastest/most efficient way to make endgame character progress (read: best gear).

 

Do not have them be the only way there. Offer an alternative method for those who don't enjoy raiding.

 

Works for me. Anyone who can put up with all that is "attached" to raiding deserves good "stuff" in my opinion.

 

Content for raiders. Content for strictly PvPers (so long as they don't get everyone else nerfed) and content for questers.

 

Best of all worlds. A nice goal for an MMO to aim for.

[DieAlteHexe]

I always see this negative attitude towards raiding and raiders and I wonder where it stems from. I raid with my friends. They don't treat me poorly or they wouldn't be my friends, and I wouldn't do anything with them, let alone raid. I think the problem isn't with raiding or raiders, it is with one's own ability to chose their friends wisely.

 

Ever play WoW? Or EQ in, hrm...I'm gonna say the early 2000 era, maybe a bit later.

 

Not all raiders, for sure, but many, many of 'em catch like a disease that causes them to be SO focused on fasterbetterüber that they seem to lose all sense of fun, of having a good time and become, well, less than rational/nice folk.

 

I've seen it time and time again and those are the sort that put me off the whole idea. As was mentioned earlier in the thread, the early days of EQ, ah, raiding then was a real blast. It was like a zerg but not serious as a heart attack. It was fun. We died, we screwed up, we learned and we didn't turn on each other or fight over drops or any of the stuff that seems to be part and parcel of raiding these days.

 

Were that type thinking, on a wide scale (sure, some guilds are rational, no doubt) then I'd be more inclined to jump in. But between the interviews, the groping of gear, the demands for what class tree you are in and how many points...meh. No thank you.

 

It's a game, not a job.

[Melacon]

No arguing with that way of "thinking". It's so incredibly sideways.

 

See my previous and the others who are trying to tell you that you're not understanding how this works (who subsidizes what).

 

What?

 

It's sideways because you have no proof of it otherwise?

 

There hasn't been a successful mmo that hasn't including raiding/PVP as it's endgame, the non raiders aren't going anywhere....that's what you fail to see, it's the raidersPVP'ers that leave the game, bad mouth it, and causes no one else to come play with you.

 

Non-raiders may subsidize, but raiders keep people playing....it's simple logic, and every mmo has been an example of it, no proper endgame = not successful, proper endgame = successful with people like you complaining for personnel progression but still paying your fee.

[greftek]

I am a bit dumbstruck about the amount of complaining about raiding. If you don't like raiding, don't. It's not like you're not being forced at gun point, or being made fun of when you don't. Most of all, I don't understand why people feel the need to be so vocal about it.

[DieAlteHexe]

What?

 

It's sideways because you have no proof of it otherwise?

 

There hasn't been a successful mmo that hasn't including raiding/PVP as it's endgame, the non raiders aren't going anywhere....that's what you fail to see, it's the raidersPVP'ers that leave the game, bad mouth it, and causes no one else to come play with you.

 

Non-raiders may subsidize, but raiders keep people playing....it's simple logic, and every mmo has been an example of it, no proper endgame = not successful, proper endgame = successful with people like you complaining for personnel progression but still paying your fee.

 

The proof is in the numbers. Numbers given at the summit, numbers previously released by Blizzard. Raiders are a small percentage of the whole. This is fact.

 

Raiders don't keep me playing. In fact, I pretty much ignore them wholesale. Raiders don't keep my guild playing.

 

And, with respect to the numbers, in this game, looks like approx. 60/40 leaning toward non-raiding. If that 40% left (which they won't, sure, some will cos they will move along to the next game and the next and the next seeking RaidNirvana) there would still be 60% left. We don't NEED raiders for this game (especially) to continue. It is a much more story based MMO than ones that have come before.

 

So, I'm not agreeing at all that if the raiders leave, the game is doomed. Then again, I doubt all the "raiders" will leave because only the really true raiders are going to want to find something else, something more, something that is new and a challenge for them.

Edited March 19, 2012 by DieAlteHexe

[asbalana]

3.....

 

I don't know why developers continue to devote most of their resources to a largely rejected type of gameplay. Maybe they just emotionally like to. Maybe raiders are the loudest and most demanding when it comes to new content. Maybe they go through it the quickest, and developers feel obligated to continue to make more and cater to them. Maybe they respect them more as the "elite," and feel other players are less deserving of new content.

 

I think the reason is simple. Raids and dungeons are a relatively cheap and quick to develope form of content which is repeatable game play. Raids may take a good deal of time to beat (especially the first time through and depending on the difficullty level) and generate sub fees for those players so engaged. Raids and dungeons often have to be run a number of times before people get the drop they are seeking or earn the points to purchase upper level gear. Solo content is played once on each charater (except for dailies) and just think about the content required to progress one level after the first few. WOW has actually just reskinned some dungeons, put in a few different bosses with changed mechanics and presto chango had "new" dungeons. Easy peasy fast and dirty "new" content.

 

As far as the devs being raiders and so biased, I don't know. I do remember reading that Ghostcrawler was a rabid raider before he assumed his mantle of incompetence over in WOW land.

 

My experience in WOW was that if you do not pvp, you raid or have nothing to do but roll alts. I am progessing slowly in swtor because I am playing a number of alts at the same time and switching back and forth between them. I am (for all of it's flaws) having a blast with swtor and there is much to like about the game. Looking ahead, I will try the dailies, but am not sure what I will do when I have a full stable of 50s if I do not go back to raiding (which at this point I do not want to do) or move over to pvp.

[DieAlteHexe]

I am a bit dumbstruck about the amount of complaining about raiding. If you don't like raiding, don't. It's not like you're not being forced at gun point, or being made fun of when you don't. Most of all, I don't understand why people feel the need to be so vocal about it.

 

I think this thread is in reaction to a lot of threads recently that seemed to be propounding that raid content should be more of a major focus than some folks would like.

 

I have no problem with raiders as our paths rarely cross in games. I do get cranky when games DO start catering to ONE type of content (be it raiding, PvP or whatever). I think that's foolish on the part of a dev. house as it will irritate the other segments of players.

[DieAlteHexe]

I think the reason is simple. Raids and dungeons are a relatively cheap and quick to develope form of content which is repeatable game play. Raids may take a good deal of time to beat (especially the first time through and depending on the difficullty level) and generate sub fees for those players so engaged. Raids and dungeons often have to be run a number of times before people get the drop they are seeking or earn the points to purchase upper level gear. Solo content is played once on each charater (except for dailies) and just think about the content required to progress one level after the first few. WOW has actually just reskinned some dungeons, put in a few different bosses with changed mechanics and presto chango had "new" dungeons. Easy peasy fast and dirty "new" content.

 

I think you are absolutely right here. It is a relatively time efficient way to add content.

 

As far as the devs being raiders and so biased, I don't know. I do remember reading that Ghostcrawler was a rabid raider before he assumed his mantle of incompetence over in WOW land.

 

No clue on this. I have seen some devs. in games who are very pro raiding or PvP but no clue how much weight their preferences carried at the decision table.

 

My experience in WOW was that if you do not pvp, you raid or have nothing to do but roll alts. I am progessing slowly in swtor because I am playing a number of alts at the same time and switching back and forth between them. I am (for all of it's flaws) having a blast with swtor and there is much to like about the game. Looking ahead, I will try the dailies, but am not sure what I will do when I have a full stable of 50s if I do not go back to raiding (which at this point I do not want to do) or move over to pvp.

 

Same here. Then again, I'm perfectly prepared to reach "end-game" for me. By that I mean when I reach a point where I'm either bored or out of content. Then, it's over (until new content is added that I enjoy). This isn't the end of the world. WoW was one that happened in. EQ was another. Still play LoTRO on occasion, there's more content over there than I could finish in years. So, if my time comes to an end here, well, I had a ton of fun before it did, so it's all good.

[thominoh]

Same here. Then again, I'm perfectly prepared to reach "end-game" for me. By that I mean when I reach a point where I'm either bored or out of content. Then, it's over (until new content is added that I enjoy). This isn't the end of the world. WoW was one that happened in. EQ was another. Still play LoTRO on occasion, there's more content over there than I could finish in years. So, if my time comes to an end here, well, I had a ton of fun before it did, so it's all good.

 

Same here as well.. I and friends don't do raids for drama reasons.. So we play alts, and when we get to the point that alts are no longer fun, we'll move on.. We took almost 2 years off between WoW and Rift.. and quick Rift after 3 months.. GW2 is on the horizon and that might cause us to rethink things..... lol

Edited March 19, 2012 by thominoh

[Frostvein]

Similar statistics from other games (including WoW) would indicate otherwise.

 

So what were seeing is 40% of the playerbase has raided.

 

 

I think this number will go up slightly.

 

I haven't yet, and I intend to. I'm not the only one.

[Altimate]

Ever play WoW? Or EQ in, hrm...I'm gonna say the early 2000 era, maybe a bit later.

 

Not all raiders, for sure, but many, many of 'em catch like a disease that causes them to be SO focused on fasterbetterüber that they seem to lose all sense of fun, of having a good time and become, well, less than rational/nice folk.

 

I've seen it time and time again and those are the sort that put me off the whole idea. As was mentioned earlier in the thread, the early days of EQ, ah, raiding then was a real blast. It was like a zerg but not serious as a heart attack. It was fun. We died, we screwed up, we learned and we didn't turn on each other or fight over drops or any of the stuff that seems to be part and parcel of raiding these days.

 

Were that type thinking, on a wide scale (sure, some guilds are rational, no doubt) then I'd be more inclined to jump in. But between the interviews, the groping of gear, the demands for what class tree you are in and how many points...meh. No thank you.

 

It's a game, not a job.

 

This is why I think it's weird, I played day 1 WOW with my current guild (many have come and gone) on Bloodhoof. We've been together through all of that, and then onto WHO, RIFT, AoC, and many other little games we just played for fun. We raided them all, and have currently cleared the content on this. We don't interview, or force people to spec. We haven't used DKP since the days of 40 man raids. Sometimes I think it's like a myth made up by people who don't have a group, that raiding means you have to be a jerk, and play all day long. We raid 2 nights a week, no big deal and no jerks. I bet if you looked you could find several guilds just like ours, we are not unique in any way. Seems like a stereotype, that may be unfounded about raiders.

[Cybeldar]

I am a bit dumbstruck about the amount of complaining about raiding. If you don't like raiding, don't. It's not like you're not being forced at gun point, or being made fun of when you don't. Most of all, I don't understand why people feel the need to be so vocal about it.

 

 

People have a right to be vocal about aspect of the games they enjoy. They also have a right to be vocal about aspects they don't enjoy. It is up to the Devs to decide which they are going to focus on and cater to.

 

Nobody is asking that raids be taken out of mmos completely. The devs need to do a good job of deciding how much effort they should put into different content. As someone mentioned earlier, WoW spent who knows how much time developing a raid that only 1% of it's player base saw. That was time and money better spent improving other content like pvp and questing.

[greftek]

I think this thread is in reaction to a lot of threads recently that seemed to be propounding that raid content should be more of a major focus than some folks would like.

 

I have no problem with raiders as our paths rarely cross in games. I do get cranky when games DO start catering to ONE type of content (be it raiding, PvP or whatever). I think that's foolish on the part of a dev. house as it will irritate the other segments of players.

Fair enough. I do agree that too much focus on one single type of content (leaving the rest in the cold) is not a good thing. I truthfully didn't know where the complaints come from, since I've only joined the game recently and the forums even more so.

[Faefrost]

38% is actually very high for this statistic, probably owing to the fact that they allow raids of 8 or 16.

 

I prefer single-group content myself, and will probably always be in the "62%."

 

I think we all remember the WoW statistic of fewer than 1% of players seeing the inside of one of their raid dungeons. That's what it took for them to finally make some more single-group content.

 

I don't know why developers continue to devote most of their resources to a largely rejected type of gameplay. Maybe they just emotionally like to. Maybe raiders are the loudest and most demanding when it comes to new content. Maybe they go through it the quickest, and developers feel obligated to continue to make more and cater to them. Maybe they respect them more as the "elite," and feel other players are less deserving of new content.

 

I was going to say. Wasn't the base statistic for Raiding in the early days of EQ somewhere around 5%? Maybe climbing as high as 15% by the time of Vanilla WoW?

[thominoh]

This is why I think it's weird, I played day 1 WOW with my current guild (many have come and gone) on Bloodhoof. We've been together through all of that, and then onto WHO, RIFT, AoC, and many other little games we just played for fun. We raided them all, and have currently cleared the content on this. We don't interview, or force people to spec. We haven't used DKP since the days of 40 man raids. Sometimes I think it's like a myth made up by people who don't have a group, that raiding means you have to be a jerk, and play all day long. We raid 2 nights a week, no big deal and no jerks. I bet if you looked you could find several guilds just like ours, we are not unique in any way. Seems like a stereotype, that may be unfounded about raiders.

 

I wish that was so, but from where I sit, I don't see it your way.. I have raided in EQ, CoH, SWG, and WoW.. I an many others simply do NOT enjoy the mechanics of raiding as is.. In my opinion it causes MORE problems then anything.. I see guild hopping all the time in WoW , Rift and SWTOR.. Why? Because not everyone gets a seat on the bus.. I loathe the design that ONLY a certain number can raid.. rather it be 8/16 or 10/20.. What happens when you have 10 people logged on to raid? Maybe you only have 1 average tank in 10.. or maybe only 1 healer in 10....... Or maybe you end up with 3 healers and 3 tanks and 4 dps.... Does that mean 1 healer and tank have to be told.. "SORRY Raid is full"..

 

This is suppose to be a social entertainment MMORPG game.. right?

[GalacticKegger]

This is why I think it's weird, I played day 1 WOW with my current guild (many have come and gone) on Bloodhoof. We've been together through all of that, and then onto WHO, RIFT, AoC, and many other little games we just played for fun. We raided them all, and have currently cleared the content on this. We don't interview, or force people to spec. We haven't used DKP since the days of 40 man raids. Sometimes I think it's like a myth made up by people who don't have a group, that raiding means you have to be a jerk, and play all day long. We raid 2 nights a week, no big deal and no jerks. I bet if you looked you could find several guilds just like ours, we are not unique in any way. Seems like a stereotype, that may be unfounded about raiders.

QFT. In single player games elitism is not an issue unless one is in conflict with pwning themselves. But this is an MMO. So like anything else where teamwork is involved it's all about people playing well with others. People who operate at a high level and truly play well with others do in fact exist. Unfortunately they are becoming an endangered species. Edited March 19, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Damon_Mott]

"One interesting factoid about the current state of Operations in the game is that only an astonishing 38% of level 50 players have played an Operation. One of the reasons for this relatively low number is that there are bugs, particularly in Eternity Vault, which have become disproportionately frustrating to players than other areas of the game due to the time invested and level of reward."

 

I got that info after the guild summit.

 

Raiding is not what everyone looks foward to in this game. In fact, would'nt a number like 38% be considered a minority.

 

That is right people, I PLAY SWTOR, AND I DO NOT LIKE RAIDING. WE ARE THE 62%.

 

 

Ever stop to think that maybe 38% of 50's arent geared to do an operation? Of course not, you like using dumb logic to certify your opinion.

[DieAlteHexe]

This is why I think it's weird, I played day 1 WOW with my current guild (many have come and gone) on Bloodhoof. We've been together through all of that, and then onto WHO, RIFT, AoC, and many other little games we just played for fun. We raided them all, and have currently cleared the content on this. We don't interview, or force people to spec. We haven't used DKP since the days of 40 man raids. Sometimes I think it's like a myth made up by people who don't have a group, that raiding means you have to be a jerk, and play all day long. We raid 2 nights a week, no big deal and no jerks. I bet if you looked you could find several guilds just like ours, we are not unique in any way. Seems like a stereotype, that may be unfounded about raiders.

 

Would that there were more like you guys. I haven't encountered a group like that since, erm...EQ1, actually. And even then, the guild was taken over by martinets.

 

But I would bet a great deal that there are less of the type you detail above and far more of the type that are very, very, erm..."serious". In fact, another guild (Rift) recently went splodey with the "raider v. non-" drama. Those who were very interested in raiding, to the point of leveling alts to support their mains were shocked that there were a good number of us who had the attitude of "hmm, well, let's give it a go and see what we see". We were all summarily booted. LOL!

 

Srs bidness!

 

And...I have looked...and looked and looked since leaving EQ. I either end up getting tired of the scheduling, the DKP, the fussing, the in-fighting, or I get tossed due to "not taking it seriously enough (which is fair, cos I don't, being that it's a game and all). Sorry, but I can't be arsed to schedule in every Tues. night for practise and set aside two sessions on the weekend for raiding. Not how my life works. It's a game, not a job. I understand that others feel differently.

 

So...kinda given up on the whole thing and that's fine. I don't mind a bit nor do I mind that others really enjoy it. I just don't like to see unequal dev. time especially when numbers (at least here in SWTOR) seem to clearly indicate that more folk are interested in the story aspects than in the more tradtional MMO "level-cap" aspects.

[thominoh]

I was going to say. Wasn't the base statistic for Raiding in the early days of EQ somewhere around 5%? Maybe climbing as high as 15% by the time of Vanilla WoW?

 

Nope.. not even close.. When a world boss popped, anyone and everyone that was close by joined.. Sometimes there was drama of some people being left out because a particular raid size didn't want or need more players.. (which I'm against exclusive) grouping.. I would say that 75% of the players base have taken part in raiding in one part or another.. the VISUAL evidence of "EPIC" weapons proved that.. NO ONE got an epic weapon without raiding atleast a little.. but I would say that 20% of the player base were regular raiders..

 

I do have to say, that figure should of and could of been much higher if it wasn't for the guilds that asked for players to raid HOURS on end.. That is too much of a job.. lol What I would of liked to see is a mix of old EQ1 and vanilla WoW..

[Erevan_Kindelar]

I don't know why developers continue to devote most of their resources to a largely rejected type of gameplay. Maybe they just emotionally like to. Maybe raiders are the loudest and most demanding when it comes to new content. Maybe they go through it the quickest, and developers feel obligated to continue to make more and cater to them. Maybe they respect them more as the "elite," and feel other players are less deserving of new content.

 

Because raiders are likely to be willing (not happy perhaps, but certainly willing) to run the same content repeatedly to get an incremental increase in their gear.

So with the RNG approach and a complete set of gear for the raider to collect, they will in theory run a raid, get the first piece of gear, and then keep runnig that raid until the RNG has spit out the rest of the set as well. Meaning that the raider consumes the same content repeatedly 10, 20, 100+ times.

Normal people, who will consume storyline content once per character may be a majority, but they also spend less time on the content, so they take more development time.

[DieAlteHexe]

Fair enough. I do agree that too much focus on one single type of content (leaving the rest in the cold) is not a good thing. I truthfully didn't know where the complaints come from, since I've only joined the game recently and the forums even more so.

 

Oh, this is TRADITION! Heh.

 

Raiders vs. casuals.

 

PvPers vs. Carebears.

 

Soloers vs. groupers (hate that word, makes me think of the icky fish).

 

We're no different here, we have to fuss at one and other over our pet likes and dislikes. For we are MMOers!

[thominoh]

Because raiders are likely to be willing (not happy perhaps, but certainly willing) to run the same content repeatedly to get an incremental increase in their gear.

So with the RNG approach and a complete set of gear for the raider to collect, they will in theory run a raid, get the first piece of gear, and then keep runnig that raid until the RNG has spit out the rest of the set as well. Meaning that the raider consumes the same content repeatedly 10, 20, 100+ times.

Normal people, who will consume storyline content once per character may be a majority, but they also spend less time on the content, so they take more development time.

 

In it's current form.. Yes I would agree.. However.. If you add more dynamic sandbox elements to the end game, your non-raiders can jump in on those.. Example for me was Rift.. I really thought it was going to be a break from the dungeon/raid grind with open world Rifts......... WRONGGGGGGGGGG.. It wasn't.. Open world rift hopping was a waste of planarite and stones...... The rewards for the open world rift encounters were a joke.. So now what? Rift went from 100 servers to 32 in a year..... WOOO HOO.. lol

 

I wonder if GW2 is going to stick to their guns tho?

[Valkirus]

Ever stop to think that maybe 38% of 50's arent geared to do an operation? Of course not, you like using dumb logic to certify your opinion.

 

And you are assuming also. It is a fact..the majority of players in any MMO are not raiders. And his % he shows only shows those facts to be true. Designing the best content around raiding when the majorty of your player base does not raid..seems like a waste of resources. And is a design which will in the end...lead to less players. Unless you can make the raid content easily accessable for those who donot normally raid. WoW saw the wisdom in that logic and came out with the " Looking for Raid " tool. Which by the way...has been highly successful. Some will disagree...but it is hard to argue with success.

[grania]

In it's current form.. Yes I would agree.. However.. If you add more dynamic sandbox elements to the end game, your non-raiders can jump in on those.. Example for me was Rift.. I really thought it was going to be a break from the dungeon/raid grind with open world Rifts......... WRONGGGGGGGGGG.. It wasn't.. Open world rift hopping was a waste of planarite and stones...... The rewards for the open world rift encounters were a joke.. So now what? Rift went from 100 servers to 32 in a year..... WOOO HOO.. lol

 

I wonder if GW2 is going to stick to their guns tho?

 

Hm, might be something to that. I used to enjoy Hamidon raiding in CoH when you could just show up when it was expected to respawn and join in. Haven't done a single raid in another game since those days.

[Felioats]

This. Keep raids as the best/fastest/most efficient way to make endgame character progress (read: best gear).

 

Do not have them be the only way there. Offer an alternative method for those who don't enjoy raiding.

 

Why should raids be the best/fastest/most efficient path to advancement?

 

I'll tell you why. Because if it were not, interest in raids would drop off a cliff. But maybe that should tell us something.

 

As I said in the pre-launch forums, no one likes raiding. What they like is getting the best gear. If it weren't there, people wouldn't do it.