Revanmug Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 To the first question, i would without a doubt argue SWTOR. To the 2nd question, i would say GW2 almost certainly (although its not out yet) Exact, GW2 is not out yet so, is it is best to not comment on that. I did play the first GW for a long time and the pve of the game was close to atrocious. GW was known for it's pvp not pve... And from following GW2, it will be pretty much the same. Different type of game sir. And really, while I would side with raiding gear should be given only in raid in every single discussion... This game doesn't have any serious raiding potential right now and with how they made the game and interview, I doubt it ever will. NightMare mode was a goddanm awful desapointment. A few hours to clear out (progression) 16 man raid with a group that is mostly new to each others, in a new game, without any kind of log (not necessary here anyway) and possibly other reasons I can't think off right now... Is yes, sad coming from the so call hardest level of difficulty. Raiders, let it go. This game wasn't design with that in mind. It is hard to have an argument about gear as a reward when soloing group quest is probably more challenging than NiM raids. An exaggeration but the point is there. Higher challenge = better reward is dying. Less for more is the new moto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin_Darkl Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Raiders, let it go. This game wasn't design with that in mind. It is hard to have an argument about gear as a reward when soloing group quest is probably more challenging than NiM raids. An exaggeration but the point is there. Higher challenge = better reward is dying. Less for more is the new moto. There are already Raiders that will let it go if Solo Players are not handed Raid gear, if not they will let it go after they cancel their subscriptions. Solo Players need to stop asking for WELFARE because they dont want to earn their gear by downing a raid boss. I already offered a simple solution, Solo Players get Solo gear not raid gear. O and FYI Solo players rarely bring friends into the game, while raiders well they bring other people into game. I personally brought 10 people to SWTOR, a few ended up on a PVP server. A Few brought more friends. While some Solo players well they dont play with people so how could they bring friends? They don't O and FYI raiders in my guild have already brought another dozen friends to SWTOR. Sorry but your Raider goes there goes your potential. Deal with it that Raiders dont want their gear handed out for not raiding. It's Tough **** that we want you to earn your gear, same will go for Rated PVP gear, Rated PVP players will want you to earn it not just buy it for credits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin_Darkl Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) Raiding is Competitive always has been since EQ. If you did not down the boss you do not get the gear. Why should you be GIVEN the gear for not killing the boss? Sounds like Welfare to me. Why because you did not EARN a dam thing. Just like if you want to win a bowling Trophy, if you dont join a bowling league/team and bowl you have no right to the trophy. Edited March 20, 2012 by Notannos removed for quote/ off-topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noviru Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) Hello everyone. This is a heads up that we recently had to remove several posts from this thread. . A reminder that regardless of the topic, it is part of our Rules of Conduct that: Never insult another member of the community.Respect other community members, whether they agree with you or not.Flag, don't fight. Use the "flag" feature to report posts to our Community Team if you see someone breaking the rules – don't respond to them!Make constructive, on-topic posts that add to the discussion. Thank you for understanding. Edited March 20, 2012 by Noviru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master-Nala Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 The new Corellia daily quests award Daily Commendations. The Mission Support Vendors have a new suit of gear for 200 commendations that it says, needs to be assembled. There are new relics on the vendor for 200 daily commendations. There is no indication that you get Black Hole Commendations. I am working on my PTS character hard, but I've been to the Black Hole and I've not seen any of this 146 rating armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DustomaticGXC Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 To do any content, you need a certain amount of stats from gear. Once you have the stats to do the content available to you, there's literally zero benefit to raising your stats outside of "hey, I have higher stats now." If you never do Operations, why would you need Operation-level stats on your gear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir-Phobos Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Because grinding dailies is about the most unfun task ever to exist in an MMO since the days of camping a rare spawn for 24 hours straight, and raiding is fun. Some people play to have fun rather than just to get gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master-Nala Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 If you never do Operations, why would you need Operation-level stats on your gear? Need is irrelevant. You don't 'need' operations stats on your gear either. You don't 'need' gear. The gear is a reward. If MMORPGs have a basis for achievement, it is making your character stronger. If that's one of the primary goals, then it doesn't matter whether you 'need' stronger gear or not. The devs could raise the damage/defense of daily quest NPCs to such an extent that Operation level stats would be needed. If that came to pass then would you still have any basis for your objection? Normal mode operations are not difficult. You don't 'need' operation rewards to do them. Of course, you don't because then no one could do them without ops gear, which is a vicious cycle. There is no argument based in logic for either side's position. It all comes down to what content you wish to reward. Raid and group content are rewarded more in most games to encourage social play, not necessarily because it's more difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revcrisis Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) The new Corellia daily quests award Daily Commendations. The Mission Support Vendors have a new suit of gear for 200 commendations that it says, needs to be assembled. There are new relics on the vendor for 200 daily commendations. There is no indication that you get Black Hole Commendations. I am working on my PTS character hard, but I've been to the Black Hole and I've not seen any of this 146 rating armor. Can you clarify on the new suit of gear for 200 daily commendations? What level and can it be used for 1 piece on the right side of your character? Remember guys, Bioware never said Corellia Dailys give Blackhole Commendations. They said that Blackhole Comms are awarded via KP NM. From my research, it seems that Corella only awards daily comms, but new gear has been added to the Mission Support Vendors which you can buy via the daily comms. What level gear this might be, we don't know yet. I would venture to say it may be Rakata level. The new Blackhole tier will be exclusively gained from comms via KP NM and possibly the new raid. The new raid tier will be gained exclusively through the new raid. Edited March 20, 2012 by revcrisis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iwipe Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 (edited) Hi, I can confirm that the new solo Corellia dailies does not give Black Hole Commendations but rather just plain daily commendations. The heroic quest was reported to drop 6 black hole commendations but its on a weekly reset. The 200 commendation construction kit is for the legacy armor, low level stuff. http://dulfy.net/2012/03/18/legacy-vendor-in-1-2/ Edited March 21, 2012 by Iwipe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krinaman Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Raiding is Competitive always has been since EQ. If you did not down the boss you do not get the gear. Why should you be GIVEN the gear for not killing the boss? Sounds like Welfare to me. Why because you did not EARN a dam thing. Just like if you want to win a bowling Trophy, if you dont join a bowling league/team and bowl you have no right to the trophy. Nobody is asking for the gear to be given to them. They are asking for other ways to earn better gear that don't envolve raiding. Even if that method requires more work than the raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master-Nala Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Hi, I can confirm that the new solo Corellia dailies does not give Black Hole Commendations but rather just plain daily commendations. The heroic quest was reported to drop 6 black hole commendations but its on a weekly reset. The 200 commendation construction kit is for the legacy armor, low level stuff. http://dulfy.net/2012/03/18/legacy-vendor-in-1-2/ I am always amazed at MMORPG player's ability to argue for 20 pages over a misunderstanding! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin_Darkl Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) Nobody is asking for the gear to be given to them. They are asking for other ways to earn better gear that don't envolve raiding. Even if that method requires more work than the raids. If you dont raid you did not earn the loot, There for you are asking for it to be handed to you. Edited March 21, 2012 by Gavin_Darkl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AHierophant Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 If Bioware does there were people can just go do quest for Raid Gear people will quit. I know once my guild read this they all made the choice that they will cancel subscriptions. Thats over 60 people right now, I also spoke a handful other raiding guilds a few that are near member cap. All their members too were debating to cancel their subs. People that came here to RAID do not care to see people who DO NOT RAID in RAID GEAR. Go Raid if you want the gear its that simple. If you want SOLO gear ask for Gear that is purple Has Endurance, your Primary Stat, and Presence. You do not need any other stats like Crit, or Hit, or any other stat that makes you better. Have 10000 Presence that makes your companion better, I do not care. You do not need to be top DPS, or Healer, or Tank you are not playing with other people. People raid to make themselves better with gear and as a player. This is not done SOLO. Solo Players can cry all they want about wanting RAID GEAR, they do not deserve it and have not earned it by SOLO Content. Its RAID GEAR for a reason. PEOPLE RAID FOR IT, NOT SOLO! Didn't bother to be accurate. No surprise. Guess you need to wear a shirt with Accuracy stenciled on it if you want to be factual and post something other than hyperbole. You don't get to say things like "people raid to make themselves better with gear" since you haven't asked every raider why they raid. You also don't get to construct strawmans like the whole "solo players are responsible for this mess (that isn't a mess at all) because they want free, undeserved raid gear" when there is absolutely zero evidence this was done to placate solo or non-raider players. According to an earlier post (one you skipped over reading in your rush to spout off) that I fact checked, the Commendations in question appear to be dropped from mobs in raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master-Nala Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 If you dont raid you did not earn the loot, There for you are asking for it to be handed to you. What? Serious question my friend. Do you contend that what you wrote makes any sense? Loot can be awarded in any way the devs see fit. The whole premise of your argument is a tautology. You're doing nothing but reiterating the point that IN YOUR OPINION the best gear should be awarded from raids. You are not making a logical argument because it is purely a question of opinion. There are games out right now that offer equivalent rewards no matter how you wish to play. GW2 the new savior game du jour will not even have any raids. Raiding is a playstyle. It is a playstyle that many players find enjoyable. It is not inherently more deserving of reward. Whether it is rewarded more highly is a question for the game developers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin_Darkl Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Didn't bother to be accurate. No surprise. Guess you need to wear a shirt with Accuracy stenciled on it if you want to be factual and post something other than hyperbole. You don't get to say things like "people raid to make themselves better with gear" since you haven't asked every raider why they raid. You also don't get to construct strawmans like the whole "solo players are responsible for this mess (that isn't a mess at all) because they want free, undeserved raid gear" when there is absolutely zero evidence this was done to placate solo or non-raider players. According to an earlier post (one you skipped over reading in your rush to spout off) that I fact checked, the Commendations in question appear to be dropped from mobs in raids. Here is what I posted earlier in this thread. Read it. Sorry but you do not have ANY RIGHT to any gear that drops off of Hard Mode or Nightmare mode raids. It takes more Work then what you can ever do solo. Perfect Fix For ALL SIDES INVOLVED! READ IT AND READ IT UNTIL YOU UNDERSTAND EVERY THING THAT GOES ON! Now Here is how to properly fix the gear/PVE loot issue. Its Logical and it gives you what you want IF and ONLY IF you EARN IT. Warning You will not be in full raid gear if you do not put the effort into earning it. Warning you will not get full Hard Mode Raid gear without Raiding Hard Modes. Warning if you expect to be handed gear don’t expect ANY respect from me, I do not respect people not willing to put the effort into something that they want. People that want handouts go play the sims. Implement 2 ways of getting Hard Mode raid gear. First being the loot that drops off the boss, the second is token that drops of a boss that coupled with 14 “Gear Daily Commendations” can buy you 1 peace of gear. So if you want to buy the T2 Chest piece of the vendor and did not get a drop you can tank 14 Gear Daily Commendations and the 1 Token and buy it. THIS Augments you getting gear if you raid casually. IF YOU DO NOT DOWN THE BOSS YOU DO NOT GET THE TOKEN TO BUY THE RAID GEAR! Implement a Vendor to BUY Story Line Raid Gear with just the GEAR Daily Commendations (GDC). So you can get Story Line Gear for 7 GDC . This is so that IF you want to gear up to do Hard Modes and are a casual it will get you geared up to Hard Mode Level FASTER. It will not give you the Hard Mode Gear. Implement a Solo Gear Vendor that will have Presence gear. Here is an example of what stats presence gear will have on it. Endurance – 90, Cunning – 50, Presences – 200, Surge Rating 2, Crit Rating – 4 This gear will have Presence the primary stat, the other stats will be good enough for players to go into a hard mode flashpoint but not raids. This is the type of gear for people who only want the solo aspect of the game. Implement 2 chains of 3 to 5 quest each which will drop 1 GDC of each chain. Implement 1 GDC to drop of the Daily heroic. This will allow CASUAL RAIDERS to gear up and attempt to keep up with Progressive raiders and Hard core raiders. It will not give out gear, it will require they put their efforts into dailies to make sure they can gear. This will allow SOLO Players to get SOLO Progression gear, then you can setup SOLO Class/Daily type quest where you can go into a quest instance like what they have out in the world right now and do something small that resembles a SOLO Flashpoint. However it’s not an hour long nor is it as in-depth it may only take 15 minutes and you can make the mobs HARD to the point that SOLO Players must use Med Packs and Adrenals to kill the mini boss. NO GEAR HIGHER THEN BLUE PVE WORLD DROPS WILL DROP OFF THESE MINI BOSSES. A good Amount of credits will. But No Epic Raid Gear, Nor your SOLO Gear. You have to spend time getting that gear by doing Dailies. This should make anyone that is after the CONTENT that is casual or the solo type to be happy. If you are a SOLO player and WANT RAID GEAR, TOUGH **** you did not down a Raid boss, and do not Plan to raid, therefore you have not earned the right to the raid gear OUTSIDE OF STORY LINE GEAR. FYI Story Line Gear will not be good enough for the SOLO Flashpoint like Quest. Only SOLO Gear because it will make your companion better to the point they are better than you. This will not help you in Flashpoints much, and it will harm you in raids. If you choose to do either Flashpoint content or Raid content you must work at that content not be given it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drosalion Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) Saying that its harder and takes more effort is completely untrue, they're both relative. I raid every week, and do belsavis/ilum dailies almost every day too. The amount of time and effort i put in to the dailies (1.5 hours a day, 7 days a week, for 1 single piece of gear) is far greater than the effort i put in to raiding (2 hours a day, 1 day a week, for multiple pieces of gear). If its effort you're talking about I personally would say dailies win hands down. As for difficulty just because there are more people doesnt instantly make it harder. More people does not = higher difficulty. More variables perhaps (or specifically different variables), but not necessarily difficult. Raiding in this game, thus far, is incredibly easy. In some cases more people make it easier, as someones stuff ups have less of an impact in the greater scheme of things. I've carried several people through raiding content that barely know the fights and were completely undergeared, i would hardly call it difficult for those people (or even for me really). I have put in ridiculously less time and way less effort into raiding than i have doing dailies, yet the rewards from raiding have been far superior... How does that work exactly? Edited March 21, 2012 by Trineda removed quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xZeality Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Just a question. You say you raid for fun & to have the best loot. How does a solo player getting the same loot from alternative methods affect your progression? You people are hilarious, you might think its a source of pride to say "this chest piece means I do hard raids!" but nobody cares. You want to prove how much cooler you are at every turn, la deee daaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grahf_the_Seeker Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) http://mmo-mechanics.com/news.php?article=new-corellia-black-hole-dailies Each solo daily give you 7 k credits and 1 Daily Commendation. That is right, they are giving out daily commendations, not Black Hole Commendations (the solo ones anyways). It appears the heroic H4 is giving out 6 Black Hole Commendations but it is on a weekly reset timer New items on Daily Commendation vendors - new relics for 200, some expensive legacy kits, schematics for artificers to make +41 crystals. NMM KP and possibly EV will give Black Hole commendations. Did you really think Bioware was going to make it THAT easy to get raid gear? Sorry to disappoint. Thank you to Tesar <The Sundered Guard> @ Warriors of the Shadow serverfor finding this out and to Dulfy @ Dulfy.net for posting this information. EDIT: And just to clarify... Campaign gear is more than likely going to be dropping in HM EC (Explosive Conflict). Link for clarification on stats. http://mmo-mechanics.com/news.php?article=1-2-pve-armor-stats-preview Sorry to rain on your parade. Edited March 21, 2012 by Grahf_the_Seeker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veimi Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Sorry soloplayers, you won't be getting the ops loot for free. Read the post above me. Great news to start the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drosalion Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Sorry soloplayers, you won't be getting the ops loot for free. Read the post above me. Great news to start the day. lol'd @ 'free' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeeSiK Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 So then a solo player should not be motivated by gear either then huh? MMO's are not a solo game...if u play an mmo solo youll get bored way too quickly....so if u want gear go find a pug or apply for a guild... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master-Nala Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 MMO's are not a solo game...if u play an mmo solo youll get bored way too quickly....so if u want gear go find a pug or apply for a guild... I know people who have played MMORPGs for many years solo. It's not my cup of tea, but they do exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krinaman Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) There is nothing factual about it at all. You keep claiming something is "raid" gear when there is nothing that makes it so. Furthermore raiding is not competitive at all unless you make it so. In fact it's more cooperative and allows for weaker players to get carried to free loot. I've seen raid spots sold in many games because once the whole raid is over geared they can beat it down a man or two. So the drag someone through and if they die just rez them and hand them loot. I'm sorry but "I'm a raider therefore I'm entitled to have the best gear that only raiders can have" isn't much of an argument. Edited March 21, 2012 by Trineda removed quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coriolan_Martius Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 (edited) This one keeps going back and forth between 2 points. 1. Raiding should give better loot because it is the ultimate end game and it is hard to get together and do. and 2. I solo and need to make progress. These 2 points are in NOT in conflict. The problem is that the lazy devs decided to give raid level gear to people who just do dailies. This is wrong and takes away incentive to raid. Raiding in HM and NM is about loot ... plain and simple. All the devs have to do is alter the stats on daily commendation gear and make them less viable for raiding. Also, why is no one answering these 2 points. 1. Why bother with dailies on Belsavis and Ilum with this new mechanism? 2. Why bother with FPs in HM when you get better gear by doing a daily? What I think is happening here is that pop is dying fast on lots of servers. So raiding and even FPs are not viable anymore. This is corroborated by the free weekend pass, bring your own friends, etc. So devs have introduced an extremely grindy process to "trickle" out loot. This way we keep playing and paying. Btw .... I have done exactly 1 OP over the last 3 months ... and we did not finish it. Edited March 21, 2012 by Coriolan_Martius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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