Without Conveyance/Deliverance

[Nocadoj]

Without Conveyance cast reduction to Deliverance, how do Sages plan on PvP healing?

 

Currently, Benelovance only crits for 2.5-3.5k but is a quick heal. This is only about half of what most DPS classes can crit for with an instant ability. Healing Trance is our only other option, but is also very easily interruptable with it's long channeling.

 

Deliverance, without the cast speed reduction buff from Conveyance, will be around 2-2.5 second cast. This is more than easily interruptable and therefore will never get casted successfully if you have one interrupter on you.

 

How exactly are we suppose to keep ourselves up or others when you have Focus Guardians and Sentinels slamming people with 6k+ crits?

 

My theorycrafting is basically that using only Benevolence and Healing Trance will be our only option, but Healing Trance will be top priority for interrupters, thus leaving us with only a 2.5k-3.5k heal.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Nocadoj

[Obi-Shinobi]

Conveyance no longer unintentionally allows its buff to be applied to more than one healing ability. Its effects have been slightly redesigned. It now increases the critical chance of Benevolence by 60% and reduces the Force cost of Deliverance by 30%.

 

 

 

Where does it say that conveyance wont work with Deliverance? I'm reading it will only work with one heal at a time like it was meant to.

[svplank]

Conveyance no longer unintentionally allows its buff to be applied to more than one healing ability. Its effects have been slightly redesigned. It now increases the critical chance of Benevolence by 60% and reduces the Force cost of Deliverance by 30%.

 

 

 

Where does it say that conveyance wont work with Deliverance? I'm reading it will only work with one heal at a time like it was meant to.

 

The idea is that Conveyance now reduces the Force cost of Deliverance, whereas pre-1.2 it reduced the casting time of Deliverance by 1 sec. It's a nerf to the amount of healing a Sage can do in a short amount of time.

[Paschar]

Exactly, with 12% alacrity you used to be able to cast it at the speed of the GCD. It will now pretty much be impossible. Even with 19% alacrity, using the 355 alacrity relic, the cast speed is still 2.0 seconds.

[Soshla]

There's a reasonably good possibility that I'll just stop. I don't know what kind of mouth breathers most people play against, but I get interrupted a fair amount. There's a particular Marauder and a couple of Assassins on my server who PvP regularly and are quite good. As it stands, I can't do anything but heal myself/kite when one of them is on me. With these upcoming changes I probably won't stand much of a chance at all.

 

The simultaneous Commando nerfs make healing on that toon unappealing as well.

Edited March 18, 2012 by Soshla

[Maladon]

PvP healing just got gutted, wow

[Kuvox]

Will someone please carefully explain how the proposed changes in 1.2 will negate deliverance's 1 second cast time reduction? Below is the description of conveyance and below that the text from 1.2.

 

Is the second sentence from the patch notes regarding conveyance, "It now increases the critical chance..." being read as a REPLACEMENT for everything conveyance already does? If so, then yes, the activation time reduction of deliverance will go away. However, couldn't one also read this sentence as being an addition to conveyance?

 

The 1 second reduction time on deliverance was deliberate. It's in the description of conveyance. Seems to me what Bioware is trying to eliminate is when conveyance applies to deliverance and then to healing trance/benevolence/salvation. After using rejuvenate I can get the 1.4 deliverance and then often (in fact very often) crit on healing trance immediately after. Or, I will get the 1.4 deliverance and then watch my force bar drop very little when using benevolence immediately after. Is that what they trying to eliminate? Please explain and thanks.

 

Conveyance:

 

"2/2

 

Rejuvenate has a 100% chance to grant Conveyance, which increases the effect of your next healing ability:

Benevolence: Force cost reduced by 50%.

Deliverance: Activation time reduced by 1 second.

Healing Trance: Critical chance increased by 25%.

Salvation: Force cost reduced by 30%."

 

Patch 1.2 Notes:

 

"Conveyance no longer unintentionally allows its buff to be applied to more than one healing ability. Its effects have been slightly redesigned. It now increases the critical chance of Benevolence by 60% and reduces the Force cost of Deliverance by 30%."

[Raani]

For one, they are eliminating the double-dipping, which was unintentional and likely a result of the heal-queuing system. While that's unfortunate, I don't think anyone didn't see this coming because it was clearly not "working as intended."

 

Secondly, they are redesigning the buffs provided by Conveyance.

 

The force-cost reduction buff for Benevolence will be replaced by a Crit buff.

 

The cast-time reduction buff for Deliverance will be replaced by a force-cost reduction buff.

 

The reason people are upset for PvP is because you can't cast a 2-sec heal in someone's face, especially in battlegrounds.

 

Juking works in WoW because it's done mostly in arena, where you have a set number of opponents and an addon which allows you to monitor their interrupts.

 

The problem with battlegrounds is that you have a lot of people focused on you, no way to keep track of who has their interrupt up, and a steady stream of fresh rezzes. Unless you get amazing peels (which you won't in a pug) or really stupid opponents, you get hounded a lot. Between pillar humping, kiting, and the occasional juke, you need a fast, powerful heal. We won't have that now, because Benevolence is weak compared to how much people hit for and Deliverance will never get cast.

 

It's a much bigger nerf for PvP than for PvE. Definitely an HPS nerf for PvE, but stacking more Alacrity can mitigate some of that, and bosses don't sit on your back interrupting your 2.0 sec heal.

 

Imho, they need to add a talent lowering the cast time of Deliverance to a more manageable 2 seconds, after which Alacrity could take it to 1.5-1.6 secs, or whatever people find comfortable.

[OrionSol]

you will never get to crit that heal, because the 2.4 second cast time will constantly be interrupted.

 

This in effect has ruined sage-healing.

[Meanerr]

maybe it's time to l2p instead of just free casting in the open like you're use to?

 

use terrain as cover and communicate with teammates to get said jugg/maurader off your azz.

 

the good healers will find a way to heal, the bad... will still be bad

 

adapt or die like Darwin's theory

[Mysticjbyrd]

maybe it's time to l2p instead of just free casting in the open like you're use to?

 

use terrain as cover and communicate with teammates to get said jugg/maurader off your azz.

 

the good healers will find a way to heal, the bad... will still be bad

 

adapt or die like Darwin's theory

 

You sir are almost as big of a tool as you are a fool. Ohh and the word you are looking for is evolution champ, not Darwin's theory.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Mysticjbyrd

[Ranluwen]

For one, they are eliminating the double-dipping, which was unintentional and likely a result of the heal-queuing system. While that's unfortunate, I don't think anyone didn't see this coming because it was clearly not "working as intended."

 

Secondly, they are redesigning the buffs provided by Conveyance.

 

The force-cost reduction buff for Benevolence will be replaced by a Crit buff.

 

The cast-time reduction buff for Deliverance will be replaced by a force-cost reduction buff.

 

The reason people are upset for PvP is because you can't cast a 2-sec heal in someone's face, especially in battlegrounds.

 

Juking works in WoW because it's done mostly in arena, where you have a set number of opponents and an addon which allows you to monitor their interrupts.

 

The problem with battlegrounds is that you have a lot of people focused on you, no way to keep track of who has their interrupt up, and a steady stream of fresh rezzes. Unless you get amazing peels (which you won't in a pug) or really stupid opponents, you get hounded a lot. Between pillar humping, kiting, and the occasional juke, you need a fast, powerful heal. We won't have that now, because Benevolence is weak compared to how much people hit for and Deliverance will never get cast.

 

It's a much bigger nerf for PvP than for PvE. Definitely an HPS nerf for PvE, but stacking more Alacrity can mitigate some of that, and bosses don't sit on your back interrupting your 2.0 sec heal.

 

Imho, they need to add a talent lowering the cast time of Deliverance to a more manageable 2 seconds, after which Alacrity could take it to 1.5-1.6 secs, or whatever people find comfortable.

 

Has it been confirmed that they removed the healing cast reduction buff? I've heard different things. I can't imagine they would nerf healing sage's this much.

 

IF it's true, the healing sage community definitely needs to get their voices heard, because it's a ridiculous nerf that's just not needed. We need to get some sort of petition going, telling them to leave the buff how it is. I for one won't continue playing this class, as a healer anyway, because in pvp that heal is only viable with conveyance.

 

I haven't paid that much attention to 1.2 yet, was healing nerfed across the board? Or was it just sage's. Healing is already a pita for sage's because they're the first target every time, I just have a hard time believing someone thought this change would be good.

[Raani]

Has it been confirmed that they removed the healing cast reduction buff? I've heard different things. I can't imagine they would nerf healing sage's this much.

 

It's pretty obvious from their wording:

 

"Its [Conveyance's] effects have been slightly redesigned. It now increases the critical chance of Benevolence by 60% and reduces the Force cost of Deliverance by 30%."

 

It's clearly a substitution. Otherwise, it would have been a pretty fat buff and no one would have complained. Plus, they would have said "in addition, Conveyance now reduces the Force cost," rather than mentioning a redesign.

 

I don't think it's debatable, so while they may come out and clarify at some point, I think all of us know what they mean.

 

Regarding not playing a Sage, I don't think you'll have much choice if you want to heal. CMs are getting gutted by this patch, and Scoundrels aren't being buffed enough.

 

I don't know how things will pan out in PvP for all healers (looking bleak right now), but I think we'll be the strongest PvE healers. The whole CM shtick was high, cheap single-target burst. With that gone, I don't know *** they're supposed to be doing. I suspect that the Sage/Scoundrel combo will become very powerful, with the Scoundrel on tank and the Sage on group.

[Sylvan]

They should have added a 6 second cooldown on Deliverance, but kept it's buff from conveyance as it was. This would have meant our other heal, benevolence would get some use in a clever rotation (right now I only use it as a trick heal). Even with the current 1.4 second cast time, I get deliverance interupts on me all the time. Of course I can just LOS and spam it again, and that is where the problem lies.

 

It needs a cooldown so if someone is fast enough to interupt it on a 1.4 second cast, we can't use it again for 6-8 seconds.

 

I agree our inifinite force energy via free noble sacrifices needed a nerf, but deliverance is now going to feel like a massive gamble in any kind of serious PvP fight.

Edited March 19, 2012 by Sylvan

[jnine]

PVP healing is going to get more challenging for sure, but it looks like BH/Trooper have also had a healing nerf/balance and OP/Scoun has just been made a bit better to be more on par, so although it sounds bad, hopefully the healing playing field between classes has just been levelled.

 

PVP healing without a Guard is just suicide anyway, now it looks like its impossible.

[Raani]

 

PVP healing without a Guard is just suicide anyway, now it looks like its impossible.

 

Patch 1.2.1 notes: Guard cannot be used in warzones anymore

 

Hate to jynx it, but it's the next step in the systematic discouragement of healers.

 

While Blizz devs get accused every patch of playing a different healer, at least they play healers. I'm not convinced that BW devs do.

[Foenix]

I think that there will be no sage healers on high ranked elo at all. Cuz it's hard to keep focused target alive even now . And with this nerf i can't imagine how it can be done at all.

[Sylvan]

I think that there will be no sage healers on high ranked elo at all. Cuz it's hard to keep focused target alive even now . And with this nerf i can't imagine how it can be done at all.

 

That is a bit of an exageration. Even with current full healing if any player gets seriously focussed they are going down, especially the ones that stand around and don't LOS it.

[Foenix]

That is a bit of an exageration. Even with current full healing if any player gets seriously focussed they are going down, especially the ones that stand around and don't LOS it.

 

I mean when you play WZ with your pre-made against enemy pre-made. All use Alt+t on main DD and with current seer skills i can do enough heals for focused target to run out of los. Ofc it's impossible to keep someone alive standing around and picking nose.

 

And w/o fast deliverance it'll become impossible even to allow focused target to live that long.

[Orielensis]

It's all about the interrupts.

 

They removed your fast cast deliverance and made mara/sent interrupt free to use. Will be interesting to see the result.

[Sylvan]

It's all about the interrupts.

 

They removed your fast cast deliverance and made mara/sent interrupt free to use. Will be interesting to see the result.

 

Interesting as in, set in stone. Any melee class that gets on top of a Sage/Sorc healer can already interupt us quite easily or hit us so hard we have to try to LOS just to stay alive.

 

I'm not whining, I'm good at my class and I already know how I'm going to rework my rotation, just saying it wasn't easy right now.

[Orielensis]

Any melee class that gets on top of a Sage/Sorc healer can already interupt us quite easily or hit us so hard we have to try to LOS just to stay alive.

 

I'm not whining, I'm good at my class and I already know how I'm going to rework my rotation, just saying it wasn't easy right now.

 

When you say 'quite easily' ... ! I was thinking specifically of your point about false casting as a tactic. I don't want to interrupt benevolence if I can help it but I occasionally did so accidentally when I had so little time to interrupt the faster deliverance that I misread the ability (i.e. your trick worked, you cunning devil!). Maybe I won't make that mistake anymore as I won't have to react quite so fast?

 

Also, while I always make sure to have rage free for an interrupt when attacking a healer (just as I always have spare rage for the obfuscate debuff on cooldown when attacking a tank or dps), occasionally this can cause knock on trouble as it is an 'unbudgeted' use of rage which might mean I have to use assault (my lesser rage builder, to be avoided if possible), causing a small dps loss. When good players face off a small factor can determine the outcome. Now my interrupt and obfuscate will both be free so my 'rotation' will be more reliable and require just that bit less by way of instant priority-based reactive decision-making!

 

I know how good you are, we are on the same server! One of the reasons I'm reporting a certain scoundrel I faced yesterday who was running back and forth in voidstar keeping his team mates in front of both doors healed and himself whilst pursued by myself and at least one other BM mara. I know you couldn't do that and wouldn't expect to be able to which makes me strongly suspect this was a case of infinite energy rather than infinite skill ...

[Sylvan]

Well now you'll have access to interupts you can use freely, combined with buffs to your damage and a nerf to our ability to heal, so I'd say you'll stand a much better chance of not only stopping me healing my allies, but stopping me healing myself also.

 

I will adapt of course, and most likely change my spec to include more CC, but still.

 

Bioware will soon realize they have went just a bit too far with this nerf. There are much smarter more balanced ways they could have approached this, such as a cooldown on deliverance without the cast time nerf, which would force us to use benevolence.

[Orielensis]

Well now you'll have access to interupts you can use freely, combined with buffs to your damage and a nerf to our ability to heal, so I'd say you'll stand a much better chance of not only stopping me healing my allies, but stopping me healing myself also..

 

Hopefully!

 

My spec has recived a whole raft of buffs. Presumably my appallingly bad performances have contributed to BW thinking this was necessary ...

 

I will adapt of course, and most likely change my spec to include more CC, but still.

 

You wouldn't do that would you? CC is the bane of marauders. Good plan.

 

Bioware will soon realize they have went just a bit too far with this nerf. There are much smarter more balanced ways they could have approached this, such as a cooldown on deliverance without the cast time nerf, which would force us to use benevolence.

 

I'm sure you're right (you're the expert). My worry is the data BW are using to suggest changes. For example, with my class they can't have much data on Carnage marauders because everyone is so sure Annihilation is better that you see very, very few.

 

With Sage healers, I don't find them OP. In a balanced team they can make an outstanding contribution or an average to poor one. I assume this is because some of the players are far more skilled than others. This is exactly as it should be.

 

However, I have sometimes encountered odd situations resulting from team imbalance. Healers are few and far between in imp teams, we very rarely have two and often none. But sometimes people say 'mark the healers' and literally half the rep side ends up marked! And the other half might well be tanks guarding all those healers.

 

Approximate stats from a voidstar the other day:

 

Top 4 in damage on scoreboard at the end all from rep team. I was 5th. Admittedly, the rep team had better players. But this is the interesting bit. The 5th highest rep damage dealer (i.e. less damage than me) had 40 kills whereas I only had 8! Very hard to win voidstar if you can't send enemy players back to the respawn. I wonder if it is data like this making BW think you needed nerfing?

 

(I do remember you weren't in that WZ, it was Lilin'dora who was the outstanding Sage healer on that occasion.)