Guardian 1.2 Notes

[CapuchinSeven]

So your point is it's an abilty to help solo? With someone other than Doc?

 

I solo lvl 50 champions already just fine with Doc as a companion. Maybe the focused defense is so we don't feel stuck to Doc all the time?

 

Regardless, I never had a bit of problem with solo leveling on a guardian , nor do I recall a great deal of gnashing of teeth regarding how hard it is to level solo (except for folks that did not want to use a healing companion) - so this is to fix a problem that really doesn't exist?

 

The forums have been full of whine about things like that "boo too I can't PVE without Doc", most of it all junk but this is what comes of scattered forum whining form people who should have just rolled a Trooper in the first place.

 

I see it having a use in PVP, I was fine surviving without it.

[Alexi_son]

Well, I can't speak for the rest of ya -- but I've been tanking MMOs for a lot of years as main raid tank for my guild.

 

I've yet to ever draw *too much* agro.

 

In issues where you're having to dual-tank a mob and switch out due to a stacking debuff the mob puts on one tank or the other, yeah, I can see it there -- maybe -- but I can't think of a single instance where anyone on these forums has mentioned having a problem along those lines. I've done the big robot in Karagga - the 4th boss with the debuff, and even on him I've never had a problem switching out to another tank. Maybe with the new buff to Guardian Slash I'll need to use Focused Defense now to unload - who knows, either way it's still completely underwhelming in relation to the amount of hype and hope I'd put on 1.2 for guardian class changes.

 

We have 26+ keys to manage, and no macro system to manage them - so we have to watch cooldowns on 3 different action bars. I was REALLY hoping for some fundamental class changes that organized and structured things so I wasn't having to manage 2 dozen+ abilities continually.

 

We did not *NEED* more abilities, we need those we have streamlined and thought out.

 

We need our skill trees organized so we have a dedicated tank tree for those of us who want to run that, not a mismash of abilities scattered across 3 different trees. Right now the skill tree layout is as bad as the old Death Knight trees in WoW when they were supposed to be able to "tank" in any spec.

 

Since this was marketed as a "next gen MMO" - I had hoped the Dev team would have looked and been able to learn from other MMOs to see what those who went before them did right and wrong in the design, and build from others' good ideas. What I see though doesn't make me very confident that's the case.

Edited March 17, 2012 by Alexi_son

[pianomanhooper]

well a few things .. like some mentioned they took away zephry which to me is huge.

 

now. i was never a fanboy of the whole focus bomb so i made a 3/27/11 spec that used shii-cho ability tpo hahve free blade storms and six sec blade storms that crit 2x ( due to force rush being a nine sec ability) and sweeps on a nine sec.. no force cost cooldown.

 

so i was alwyas using my special moves. NOW it seems i cant and i cant say that that was i wise move.

 

also we lost to me an extra 4% of dmg mitigation if im reading that right commanding awe used to give us an extra 4% mitigation so in my spec using shii-cho i was at +3 offense +7 def.

 

i dont see that anymore... sure focus def is good but it is probably on a long cool down.

 

not to impressed. i know i was the minority but i had a spec that was unique and worked and it shot to hell now

[lightertripod]

if the stun on force leap applies in pvp this is an awful change being able to choose when you CC some one is one of the difference between good and bad players

 

force leap is a required ability in any fight you cannot avoid using it or choose not to use it to save your CC

 

so many times I see double defence guards with this talent double jump ball carrier in hutt ball give them instance full resolve

 

IF it applies to pvp awful

[Ster-Ling]

Well, I can't speak for the rest of ya -- but I've been tanking MMOs for a lot of years as main raid tank for my guild.

 

I've yet to ever draw *too much* agro.

 

There are DPS guardians, too. And yes, we can generate anough threat to peel agro from tanks. Good tanks. Big, beefy, angry tanks. Who yell a lot. Good DPS can get the boss to ignore even those guys. And therefore we need a threat dump.

 

(Note that the skill that buffs Focused Defense is in the Focus big bursty yellow numbers tree.)

 

Clearly, the heal/-threat ability is not a bone being thrown to tanking guardians.

[Veniras]

Clearly, the heal/-threat ability is not a bone being thrown to tanking guardians.

 

Eh, not clearly. I can see a use for it as as a def specced guardian too

[RDeanOU]

Well, I can't speak for the rest of ya -- but I've been tanking MMOs for a lot of years as main raid tank for my guild.

 

I've yet to ever draw *too much* agro.

 

In issues where you're having to dual-tank a mob and switch out due to a stacking debuff the mob puts on one tank or the other, yeah, I can see it there -- maybe -- but I can't think of a single instance where anyone on these forums has mentioned having a problem along those lines. I've done the big robot in Karagga - the 4th boss with the debuff, and even on him I've never had a problem switching out to another tank. Maybe with the new buff to Guardian Slash I'll need to use Focused Defense now to unload - who knows, either way it's still completely underwhelming in relation to the amount of hype and hope I'd put on 1.2 for guardian class changes.

 

We have 26+ keys to manage, and no macro system to manage them - so we have to watch cooldowns on 3 different action bars. I was REALLY hoping for some fundamental class changes that organized and structured things so I wasn't having to manage 2 dozen+ abilities continually.

 

We did not *NEED* more abilities, we need those we have streamlined and thought out.

 

We need our skill trees organized so we have a dedicated tank tree for those of us who want to run that, not a mismash of abilities scattered across 3 different trees. Right now the skill tree layout is as bad as the old Death Knight trees in WoW when they were supposed to be able to "tank" in any spec.

 

Since this was marketed as a "next gen MMO" - I had hoped the Dev team would have looked and been able to learn from other MMOs to see what those who went before them did right and wrong in the design, and build from others' good ideas. What I see though doesn't make me very confident that's the case.

 

Focused Defense is not a tanking ability. That's why there are talents that buff it in the DPS trees. Focused defense is a threat dump for DPS Guardians.

 

Why must every single ability make you a better tank? Seriously.....they add a much needed ability for DPSers and you are complaining that it isn't useful as a tank. It isn't supposed to be.

 

The threat boost to Guardian Slash is nice. I don't know what Command is for now. Not sure who is going to put points into a Tier 5 talent that just reduces the cd of force push. I will miss the lowered CD on our aoe taunt, but that isn't exactly a huge gigantic nerf.

 

People are acting as though the sky is falling. They definitely nerfed the hybrid tank spec and I was personally hoping for some better fixes for Defense, but I hardly feel like Defense was nerfed in any significant way.

[lightertripod]

if the stun on force leap applies in pvp this is an awful change being able to choose when you CC some one is one of the difference between good and bad players

 

force leap is a required ability in any fight you cannot avoid using it or choose not to use it to save your CC

 

so many times I see double defence guards with this talent double jump ball carrier in hutt ball give them instance full resolve

 

IF it applies to pvp awful

 

let me also add if

 

Master Strike can no longer be interrupted.

 

works how it currently does in game right now if you choose this talent it effectively self roots you as you cannot cancel it either (unless it changed as some point and I missed it never picked this up once I found out you cannot self cancel as your target walks backward 2 steps and you doing no damage just a silly animation)

[clearsighted]

Are you guys illiterate? Let me put in perspective a few things, 1 Master strike is getting buffed so more damage on that, more talent point options with swellign winds going into focus, so picture this. Force exhaust, run back and pop adrenal/relic, force leap, stun, Masterstrike during force exhaust. If you get crits thats atleast 50% of someones hp, 4.5-5k sweep after that and you have a dead or very close too dead imp, just dispatch and wipe hands off on their corpse.

 

 

P.S. Lets not forget how squishy focus guardians are, self heal that can be activated during a stun could mitigate alot of damage so be glad.

 

Oh sure, it's a massive hardon-popping change if you're a Focus-using Sentinel (especially with them getting Swelling Winds now), but it's a downer for anyone that was more interested in tanking.

 

Focused Defense, as others have pointed out, is also for Focus or Vig guardians. Not for tanks. And honestly, I suspect the heal will be so low, that most people will never use it anyways.

Edited March 17, 2012 by clearsighted

[announcerharris]

..... Edited May 31, 2012 by announcerharris

[clearsighted]

Did they really? I always thought the reason this spec worked was the that guardian leap's damage reduction applied to you as well; combining that with the mitigation from Unremitting was no joke. Commanding Awe always seemed like gravy.

 

Have the skill point changes made the spec no longer viable? The threat boost for guardian slash was nice, but not really necessary. Plus we can put 3 points into saber mastery, which now works in Soresu form as well.

 

Removing the 4% damage reduction, and moving Swelling Winds into the Focus Tree have diminished it.

 

Defense is still so terrible, that it's still a pretty close call. But it's no longer obvious.

[CapuchinSeven]

Well, I can't speak for the rest of ya -- but I've been tanking MMOs for a lot of years as main raid tank for my guild.

 

I've yet to ever draw *too much* agro.

 

This new heal and aggro drop is clearly in response to bad players that couldn't work out how to let Kira attack first and then draw aggro off her (the companion I spent 99% of the game using) and then would come to the forums and whine that you can only play with Doc.

Edited March 17, 2012 by CapuchinSeven

[Alexi_son]

They definitely nerfed the hybrid tank spec and I was personally hoping for some better fixes for Defense, but I hardly feel like Defense was nerfed in any significant way.

 

They didn't have to nerf our defense spec in any significant way ... I'd say it's already there, and what they did sure doesn't help. But hey, at least we did get a 50% threat bonus to guardian slash. I don't want to seem ungrateful, I'm just shocked and discouraged.

[Goretzu]

Force Sweep is 12 sec cd now vs 9?

I think it is. And yes, lol, bad....

Sent has the same dmg in focus spec now with a better cd. Also the singularity buff from Combat focus, they get it from Zen which is always up now thanks to Valor ability being tier 1 now.

 

Yeah I'm not convinced Focus has been buffed over all (for Guardians).

 

It's been buffed in aspects and nerfed in others, comparatively Sentinals do better out of it.

[clearsighted]

Interesting, because what I've actually said is that we have no idea it will work in PVP until someone tries it on the PTS and that it's probably just a low level skill to make levelling easier and will work like the stun on Sweeps and if it doesn't then I'll address it at that point, as you have NOTHING to say about that other than the worse troll attempt I've ever seen since my friend told me the ending to the Karate Kid II in the 80s just to screw with me I'm going to leave you to your keyboard licking.

 

I like how you quoted me in such a way, and then went off on an entirely different tangent, to obscure the fact I was responding to your assertion that force clap is so great cause it's now there to help us set up pommel strike to PvE, and gee whiz, the devs sure know what they're doing vibe that you give off.

Edited March 17, 2012 by clearsighted

[CapuchinSeven]

your assertion that force clap is so great.

 

I didn't say this.

 

know what they're doing vibe that you give off.

 

I didn't say this.

 

I said 3 very very simple things which are facts. The new stun is a low level ability. We have no idea if it offers a stun in PVP. It's there to set PVE mobs up for a pommel strike.

 

At no point have I said I like change, that I know for a fact that it doesn't work in PVP or that setting up of pommel strike is in anyway needed but it will make levelling a little easier because we get pommel before opportune and pommel deals more damage as well as our AOE snare working fine setting up targets around you for opportune strike, pommel has a lower cooldown and could only be used by high levelled Defence builds. Now all late 20 Guardians can use it. Do you even think before you type? (no idea why I asked that, it's pretty clear you don't).

 

When I see some evidence that something is different I'll be sure to change my mind, luckily this doesn't mean I have to foam at the mouth, lick my keyboard and bang my head on the desk whining "you said, you said, pommel, pommel" like yourself.

 

PLEASE do post something back about pommel strike, it's clearly the important issue here and your posts ranting about it are very very important to the changes to force leap.

Edited March 17, 2012 by CapuchinSeven

[FalcoLombardi]

Eh, not clearly. I can see a use for it as as a def specced guardian too

 

Use that Focused Defense then Challenging call to get stuff hammering you to make the most use of that heal and remax your threat

[Dracosz]

The changes do the following:

 

- Vigilance/Vengeance is gutted

- Rage/Focus gain on-demand burst but lose rage gen

- Defense/Immortal are still bloated

- The new CD sucks, it churns up 14 rage over it's duration and leaves us completely rage starved.

[muradi]

Blade Storm 12 secs too! Omgah! Not only Force Sweep!

This is terribad.

[lotj]

Removing the 4% damage reduction, and moving Swelling Winds into the Focus Tree have diminished it.

 

Defense is still so terrible, that it's still a pretty close call. But it's no longer obvious.

 

The notes are different from what's currently on the ptr.

 

Commanding awe still gives the 4% damage reduction, but gives an additional dr increase when force defense (or whatever that thing is) is activated. Protector seems to be gone completely.

 

Blade barrier's low enough in the def tree to snag it along with the cd reduction on Blade Storm and the crit increase after overhead slash. The trade-off is now shield spec vs. a 9s blade storm + all the rest of the vig jazz, which might make the hybrid spec even stronger against the def one.

Edited March 17, 2012 by lotj

[Dooger]

I think its a good patch for our sent brothers, and thats great.

For guardians its 2 steps forward and one back.. but over all not bad.

 

The longer cooldowns for focus builds make a painful too many cooldown class a little more painful. esp to gain an enhancement to slash...

 

The one real head scratcher is:

"Dust Storm is now a 3-point skill that provides the same overall effect."

 

um ok.. good thing we dont have that OP dust cloud being 2 points!

[CapuchinSeven]

I feel it's important for a few people here moaning about lack of cooldown lowering in Cho to re-read the notes -

 

"Swelling Winds is now located in Tier 1 of the Focus skill tree. It increases the damage dealt by Force Sweep and Cyclone Slash and reduces the cooldown of Force Sweep."

 

The notes are different from what's currently on the ptr.

 

Commanding awe still gives the 4% damage reduction, but gives an additional dr increase when force defense (or whatever that thing is) is activated. Protector seems to be gone.

 

*shock* do you mean to say that the actual reality of the patch wasn't fully covered in the patch notes? Well I never.

 

(I'd actually had a feeling Commanding Awe still had the 4% reduction, assuming it was gone was typical knee jerking by the same posters over and over again)

 

The one real head scratcher is:

"Dust Storm is now a 3-point skill that provides the same overall effect."

um ok.. good thing we dont have that OP dust cloud being 2 points!

 

AND "Momentum is now a 2-point skill that provides the same overall effect". Seriously, work it out, it's a buff. The useful skill now costs less and the less useful skill has the added point added to it, they have to keep the points amount the same, that's how they did it.

Edited March 17, 2012 by CapuchinSeven

[lotj]

AND "Momentum is now a 2-point skill that provides the same overall effect". Seriously, work it out, it's a buff. The useful skill now costs less and the less useful skill has the added point added to it, they have to keep the points amount the same, that's how they did it.

 

Before most tank builds would max out dust storm and victory rush, and have 1 point left over to put in momentum to unlock t2 def abilities. Now they'll max out dust storm and victory rush, but not have the 1 point left over.

 

For tanks, it's a noop if you put 3 points in momentum (dust storm's necessary). It's a nerf if you put 1 point in momentum. For dps, it's a buff because dust storm isn't particularly required.

[CapuchinSeven]

Before most tank builds would max out dust storm and victory rush, and have 1 point left over to put in momentum to unlock t2 def abilities. Now they'll max out dust storm and victory rush, but not have the 1 point left over.

 

For tanks, it's a noop if you put 3 points in momentum (dust storm's necessary). It's a nerf if you put 1 point in momentum. For dps, it's a buff because dust storm isn't particularly required.

 

At worse, you're losing a slight chance to get a free blade storm. You're still getting your 5 points spent and getting the skills you need.

[aeterno]

I'm more or less convinced the focus CDs will be adressed somehow. No way devs would comparetively gimp the shared spec for one AC like that, making the other a vastly supperior fit to it, that wouldn't make any sense. Edited March 17, 2012 by aeterno