Over Powered healing killing PvP

[AGx-Spike]

Individually, healers are not overpowered; nerfs are not required.

 

Collectively, healing is borked. Get 3+ healers in one WZ and its terrible.

 

They just need to limit the number of healers per WZ to 2/side.

 

In fact, just last night we had a civil war with 4 healers on the other side (which was nocapped for a considerable period of time, took about 1 hr to finish). Me and three of the opposing side healers ended with over a 1.5 million heals each. Collectively, it was just north of 8 million heals in a single WZ, thats terrible.

 

You can certainly reach a point where: (1) there are too many healers to focus fire, they can even heal through that; and (2) there arent enough CCs/interrupts to lock them down.

 

Yeah I've been there but on the other side of it. As a tank they couldn't kill me to save their lives but because they were so busy healing each other. What was bad though is that since we couldn't kill a single one of their healers (they had 5 btw) we couldn't get pas a single door. On the flip side, their DPS dropped us like flies because we couldn't kill the DPS. There are times where its just unfair. I'm glad this is kind of rare.

[Bnol]

 

Every pre-form pub team i have faced has 3 healers

 

the faction imbalance allows them to que as full "preforms" early in the morning.

 

and every ranked team will because they know how to train people with the dps they have, down.

 

Pre-form versus Pug/semi-pug is the issue, not healers. They would still beat you with 1 healer if they are using a voice client or using /assist their dps will burn through players quickly because of focus fire and proper CC. A healer's usefulness is limited to the amount of damage being output by the other side. If you have good CC and focus-fire the other side will not be outputting much damage, and thus you need less healers.

[Zepidel]

.... why do these threads exist? compared to wow, rift, war, daoc, etc healers in this game are a joke.

 

People just need to learn to assist and focus fire, something that the people playing this game very very rarely do (probably because 95% of the time you simply don't need to).

[Bnol]

The solution is NOT to nerf individual healers more. its to prevent healer stacking which I think is going to be a huge problem come Rated Warzone 8 man pre-made queues.

 

Healer stacking will not be an issue because healers will have their longevity nerfed in 1.2, thus dragging out fights will not be an advantage. A balanced group will be better than healer stacking.

[Cygann]

GW1 had this sorted years ago. Healers could heal themselves average of 60% of the amount they could heal others because their best heals healed fully on others, but were down in half on themselves making it impossible for healer to be self sufficient.

 

And that is ok because healer is there to support others, but he should also need support from other teammates in order to survive just as much as they need his.

 

So add healing debuff on self heals and have it that other healer can keep one guy getting nuked by single DPS alive, but he could never do that for himself as self healing will only sustain him for so long to survive until he gets help, or die like anyone else.

 

Then again, team work is usually too complicated for masses that will immediately start rivers of tiers if they don't feel like one man army, so this might to much for this kind of MMO.

 

Also, close future will show if no healers game will bring more fun to PVP then this old trinity system. Then we will all have better insight if tons of healing is making PVP more fun or boring and, BW if smart, could then learn from player satisfaction in competitor game and adjust power of heals in this game.

[vulup]

Pre-form versus Pug/semi-pug is the issue, not healers. They would still beat you with 1 healer if they are using a voice client or using /assist their dps will burn through players quickly because of focus fire and proper CC. A healer's usefulness is limited to the amount of damage being output by the other side. If you have good CC and focus-fire the other side will not be outputting much damage, and thus you need less healers.

 

A couple friends on mine and I goofed around on a couple alt snipers one day. Four of us in a Huttball match.

 

We killed everything by communicating over vent in two combined globals and won the match by holding the ball. CC s / punts / roots made us untouchable. Strange / gimicky FOTM builds for WZs - and I can only guess at what they might be come 1.2, will dominate pvp.

 

i am, right now, leaning towards four good, well-coordinated dps plus, say a tank for taunts/guard and three healers - only because of the layout of huttball, VS and Aldreaan and the power of cross-healing.

 

 

Two healers with two hybrid dps specced tank ACs for guard as needed plus dps could work well too.

 

I really dont think Swotor is ready for ranked games. 1.2 with its bucket-full of class specific changes tells me BW thinks so too. Some of the changes are - imo - pretty far off the beaten path BW is trying to take swotor and others could lead to a form of pvp balance amongst certain WZ comps.

[Khoraji]

Individually, healers are not overpowered; nerfs are not required.

 

Collectively, healing is borked. Get 3+ healers in one WZ and its terrible.

 

They just need to limit the number of healers per WZ to 2/side.

 

In fact, just last night we had a civil war with 4 healers on the other side (which was nocapped for a considerable period of time, took about 1 hr to finish). Me and three of the opposing side healers ended with over a 1.5 million heals each. Collectively, it was just north of 8 million heals in a single WZ, thats terrible.

 

You can certainly reach a point where: (1) there are too many healers to focus fire, they can even heal through that; and (2) there arent enough CCs/interrupts to lock them down.

 

seems more fun than riding a speeder half the time...or if your the one winning, standing on an empty node for 10 minutes watching the clock tick down....maybe thats just me.

[ComeAndSee]

There's no healer in-game under the right hands becomes a walking brick wall to take down.

 

I was even in a match where this one Op (with peels) took over 500k damage and didn't die once while me + Sentinel were digging into him all match. Imagine trying to kill 3 separate one of these dudes in a match.

Edited March 29, 2012 by ComeAndSee

[voigt]

I think the problem (and by problem I mean complaining, deserving or not) is the fact that you don't need to be a competent player to out heal DPS but you do need to be a competent player (or 2v1) to take down a healer.

 

Especially in a 1v1 situation, just to even annoy a healer, you need to time your CC's and stuns just right. There's also the fact that the healers themselves get CC's to use on you and bubbles which makes it harder to take them down. Can it be done? Yes, I do it all the time but I'm not perfect (I play Shadow btw) and I often screw up and hit the wrong button when I mean to CC or sometimes I hit some lag or (for whatever reason, and this happens a lot) Force Wave doesn't go off when I hit the button. When that happens the entire battle can feel like a reset except I don't have any CC's to use for a while. You have to be damn near perfect or outgear the healer.

 

On the other hand, the healer can just stand there and spam heals, stun and snare whenever possible. A good healer will use the terrain as well but for the most part healers (especially better geared ones) can stand there and ignore me and heal themselves and the other guys.

 

I'm not here to cry nerf because I like the challenge of perfection. I play tank classes anyway so I know I'm not meant to burn down healers (when I do play infiltration though it seems to be incredibly easy) but I do understand that there is a bit of a problem and hopefully 1.2 will rectify some of it.

 

For you WoW players, remember when Pally was /faceroll? Healers in SWTOR are in the same boat. While not nearly as OP it requires little to no skill at all to do while combating them does. Not fair for a role that probably the most important in PvP.

 

Id like to play devils advocate on this point. As I have played both a BM dps and a BM healer.

 

I agree, the skill level is all on the dps side to stop the healer, the healer skill is not how he interacts with his attacker but more how to get some breathing room to get a heal off, using proper timing, juking a heal so you bait an interrupt, vast knowledge of each classes abilities and knowing when to use your cooldowns. Healing does take skill, because to tell you the truth we cant spam heals, theres no such thing as heal spamming in PVP. I come from the point of a Mercenary Healer though so maybe the others have more options but I have 1 heal that does not have a cooldown.

 

Big heal (2.0s cast, no cooldown)

Small Fast heal (1.5s cast, 12-9s cooldown depending on set bonus)

Instant heal (18-21s cooldown depending on set bonus)

Instant small AoE heal (3 targets 6s cooldown)

Instant reactive heal, about 300-600 per hit for 10 hits

 

As you can see there is only 1 heal that does not have a cooldown, THAT is the heal everyone interrupts. Some classes have a 6s cooldown interrupt that locks you out of your ability for 4s. So if you start casting it and it gets interrupted, after 4 seconds you can start casting it again, this is when they stun you or choke you, now their interrupt is ready again for the next time. Smart DPS will alternate their CCs with Interrupts and only interrupt the Big Heal. Unless im totally being ignored theres no such thing as spamming a heal in this game.

 

I WANT healers to feel more interactive with their attackers but currently its mostly hoping your attacker is unskilled.

[Sworne]

There's no healer in-game under the right hands becomes a walking brick wall to take down.

 

I was even in a match where this one Op (with peels) took over 500k damage and didn't die once while me + Sentinel were digging into him all match.

 

Ops with peels will be impossible to kill for just 2 guys. Essentially you're saying this was 2 dps versus at least 2, possibly more, other players, and your complaint is that the two of you couldn't kill him. Well that's as it should be.

 

If you're only throwing two people at the healer and he has any kind of support, why would it be out of the question for him to be able to stay up the entire match?

[Heimengoespop]

There's no healer in-game under the right hands becomes a walking brick wall to take down.

 

I was even in a match where this one Op (with peels) took over 500k damage and didn't die once while me + Sentinel were digging into him all match. Imagine trying to kill 3 separate one of these dudes in a match.

 

So his teammates helped him survive..and he is somehow OP? Don't be dumb. You just said that he had peels, that's why you couldn't kill him. CC his teammates that were helping him then burn him down.

[ComeAndSee]

Ops with peels will be impossible to kill for just 2 guys. Essentially you're saying this was 2 dps versus at least 2, possibly more, other players, and your complaint is that the two of you couldn't kill him. Well that's as it should be.

 

If you're only throwing two people at the healer and he has any kind of support, why would it be out of the question for him to be able to stay up the entire match?

 

This games much more lenient for healers than others MMOs I have played.

 

1. No silences.

2. Interrupts only lock out one spell for 4s and most classes have 6-12 second cooldowns.

3. No offensive dispels.

4. No resource drains.

5. Healers never run OOM.

6. No healing debuffs.

7. Burst damage isn't too excessive relative to players HP.

8. Guard.

[Celebrus]

This games much more lenient for healers than others MMOs I have played.

 

1. No silences.

2. Interrupts only lock out one spell for 4s and most classes have 6-12 second cooldowns.

3. No offensive dispels.

4. No resource drains.

5. Healers never run OOM.

6. No healing debuffs.

7. Burst damage isn't too excessive relative to players HP.

8. Guard.

 

Healing is far easier in this game than in any MMO that I've played a healer in.

 

But there is one healing debuff, a 20% debuff that maras/sents can apply, and in 1.2 snipers/gunslingers will also provide this healing debuff.

 

Aside from that, you're completely spot on, and yes, healing is easy in this game.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Celebrus

[Khoraji]

This games much more lenient for healers than others MMOs I have played.

 

1. No silences.

2. Interrupts only lock out one spell for 4s and most classes have 6-12 second cooldowns.

3. No offensive dispels.

4. No resource drains.

5. Healers never run OOM.

6. No healing debuffs.

7. Burst damage isn't too excessive relative to players HP.

8. Guard.

 

Ever play WoW?

 

2 - This is true, but as a merc healer, we only have 1 spell without a 9-20 second cooldown.

3 - This would be cool actually

5 - Not really true, but it does take a while if we pop cooldowns, etc... and 1.2 is about a 35% increase in our resource drain. So that is taken care of soon.

6 - Dont mara's have a -20% healing done de-buff?

7 - And burst healing is non existent without popping CD's. When is the last time you saw a healer get the 5k healing medal? Compare that to how many DPS get it.

8 - Anyone can be guarded.

[Ruuprect]

This games much more lenient for healers than others MMOs I have played.

 

1. No silences.

2. Interrupts only lock out one spell for 4s and most classes have 6-12 second cooldowns.

3. No offensive dispels.

4. No resource drains.

5. Healers never run OOM.

6. No healing debuffs.

7. Burst damage isn't too excessive relative to players HP.

8. Guard.

 

Maybe a little, but most games have a DR on cc/roots/silences that is much more leanient than resolve. I can remeber times in Rift healing as a cleric where I was basically invincible after dr kicked in againt 5 people until I went OOM which would take a long time, even with heal debuffs everywhere.

 

The lack of numerous spammable AoE heal's and very few meaningful instant heals make healing in this game less of a problem than others.

[Celebrus]

Ever play WoW?

 

2 - This is true, but as a merc healer, we only have 1 spell without a 9-20 second cooldown.

3 - This would be cool actually

5 - Not really true, but it does take a while if we pop cooldowns, etc... and 1.2 is about a 35% increase in our resource drain. So that is taken care of soon.

6 - Dont mara's have a -20% healing done de-buff?

7 - And burst healing is non existent without popping CD's. When is the last time you saw a healer get the 5k healing medal? Compare that to how many DPS get it.

8 - Anyone can be guarded.

 

7 - Burst damage is non-existant without popping CDs as well, so we're all pretty much on the same table. Also, I never see the 5k medal on my lethality sniper, unless I play marksman and basically run around being a free kill I never will, but my sorc friend that I run with typically gets their 2.5k and 5k heal medals as they leave the spawn door BEFORE EVEN CONTRIBUTING TO THE FIGHT. So lets not compare the ease at which healers can get medals, FFS you can sit on an alderaan node and get 4 medals (not counting defender medals) as a sorc/sage without ever healing anyone but yourself.

 

8 - Anyone can be guarded, but only an idiot guards someone other than a healer when a heal is an option.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Celebrus

[Khoraji]

7 - Burst damage is non-existant without popping CDs as well, so we're all pretty much on the same table. Also, I never see the 5k medal on my lethality sniper, unless I play marksman and basically run around being a free kill I never will, but my sorc friend that I run with typically gets their 2.5k and 5k medals as they leave the spawn door BEFORE EVEN CONTRIBUTING TO THE FIGHT. So lets not compare the ease at which healers can get medals, FFS you can sit on an alderaan node and get 4 medals (not counting defender medals) as a sorc/sage without ever healing anyone but yourself.

 

8 - Anyone can be guarded, but only an idiot guards someone other than a healer when a heal is an option.

 

Agreed you should always guard the healer...or else they will die in 5 seconds when the other team notices what you are. Guard is the only defense we have against focus-fire.

[Ruuprect]

Ever play WoW?

 

2 - This is true, but as a merc healer, we only have 1 spell without a 9-20 second cooldown.

3 - This would be cool actually

5 - Not really true, but it does take a while if we pop cooldowns, etc... and 1.2 is about a 35% increase in our resource drain. So that is taken care of soon.

6 - Dont mara's have a -20% healing done de-buff?

7 - And burst healing is non existent without popping CD's. When is the last time you saw a healer get the 5k healing medal? Compare that to how many DPS get it.

8 - Anyone can be guarded.

 

7-I get teh 5k healing medal right after I leavee the spawn in every match. Getting it without gaming the system is impossible though.

[Altaira]

i queue with a mercenary healer friend of mine, il guard him, and me and him can go 2v4 and win. just the numbers healers can put out don't scale with how much damage people can do

 

So, you are saying that your merc healer friend can outlast 4 players wailing on him, with interrupts and stuns? Who the hell are you playing against? I would like to see a video of this please.

 

This thread is full of exaggeration.

[Khoraji]

7 - Burst damage is non-existant without popping CDs as well, so we're all pretty much on the same table. Also, I never see the 5k medal on my lethality sniper, unless I play marksman and basically run around being a free kill I never will, but my sorc friend that I run with typically gets their 2.5k and 5k heal medals as they leave the spawn door BEFORE EVEN CONTRIBUTING TO THE FIGHT. So lets not compare the ease at which healers can get medals, FFS you can sit on an alderaan node and get 4 medals (not counting defender medals) as a sorc/sage without ever healing anyone but yourself.

 

8 - Anyone can be guarded, but only an idiot guards someone other than a healer when a heal is an option.

 

BTW i wasnt talking about medals. I was saying burst dmg vs burst healing. In normal gameplay (not gaming the system), burst dmg has generally higher numbers. I have only ever got 5k healing once and I am not even sure how lol.

[Threskov]

I get the 5k healing medal every game on both an operative and sage healer. You are doing something wrong.

[Khoraji]

I get the 5k healing medal every game on both an operative and sage healer. You are doing something wrong.

 

I am merc... havent played either of those classes but maybe their heals are bigger and slower?

[Dudious]

This games much more lenient for healers than others MMOs I have played.

 

1. No silences. See answer to #2

2. Interrupts only lock out one spell for 4s and most classes have 6-12 second cooldowns. This game has more interrupts, and on shorter cooldowns than other MMOs I have played. This means that obviously each interrupt needs to be relatively less powerful. Coordination and consistent interaction are encouraged by this.

3. No offensive dispels. True, but HoTs are not as prominent in this game as other games (WoW is what jumps to mind here).

4. No resource drains. Doesn't apply so much to Commando/Merc and Operative/Scoundrel because their resource mechanic is based on quick use and quick regen. A resource drain would have much more of an impact on Sorcs, but in general, would not contribute as much to this game as others.

5. Healers never run OOM. This is about as true as saying that players never run out of HP.

6. No healing debuffs. Simply not true.

7. Burst damage isn't too excessive relative to players HP. Simply not true.

8. Guard. Can be used on characters that are not healers. Obviously a character that has a guard on them whilst receiving heals is much harder to kill than a character that only has one of these benefits... but this can be anyone. They're focusing your team's marauder? Tank guards, and the healer heals the marauder. They're focusing your team's healer? Tank guards, and healer heals himself. It's the same.

 

Whoever actually thought that this list of items were particularly meaningful doesn't seem to know much more than the author.

[Obi-Shinobi]

If healing is so easy just try it and post your results. cya

[mangarrage]

This is actually a simple concept that I tried to get across in a few other games but programmers still dont get it

 

You have to completely separate pve and pvp or pvp will not work

 

A healer in any game is the last decade is created with the ability to heal a tank or group in a raid situation with boss mob that put out alot more damage then any single or even 2 players and the heals are made to be able to handle that damage

 

So when you step into a pvp realm healing becomes overpowered because the damage isnt that high.

 

It is one completely logical thing yet no game maker seems to get it