Time to get rid of Expertise

[LovedEverySecond]

expertise is cool.... it's somthing to build for... consider this: I am 49 and the minute I turn 50 and go into pvp zone i'm going to have like a couple pieces of 50 gear and get crushed by the sith and when I respawn I will get crushed again. This will repeat until I earn up enough tokens to buy better gear with more expertise and eventually it will level itself out, but what is bad about this way of playing. You work on something, you get a reward, you stop looking like such a noob and you exhale. That's what games are about, kinda'.

[ChronicZA]

I agree, get rid of expertise , it has no value and no benifit to pvp as a whole. Currently all it does is seperate the PVE'RS from the PVP'ERS and reduce the number of people taking part in pvp.

 

By removing expertise you can easily double the amount of people playing warzones by attracting the pve players, this will not be a issue for pvp players as they generaly are alot more skilled when it comes down to killing players.

 

PvP players are already generaly at an advantage to pve players because of practise and all expertise does is widen the gap making it horrible for casual/non pvp players to enjoy.

 

All you need is to balance the tiers of pve & pvp gear and give top end pve & pvp players a fair chance at each other but have different set bonuses. This way players can decide to either attain gear through pve or pvp depending on their preference. MMO gaming is all about time investment and players must be rewarded according to time invested and should be able to enjoy every aspect of the game regardless of preference.

 

So yes get rid of expertise and upgrade the pvp servers to handle the influx of people in warzones.

[Vaipyr]

get crushed by the sith and when I respawn I will get crushed again. This will repeat until I earn up enough tokens to buy better gear with more expertise and eventually it will level itself out, but what is bad about this way of playing.

 

The fact that your playtime consists of:

Spawn

**** victim

Spawn

**** victim

Spawn

**** victim

 

For x amount of time before you actually get to PLAY. It's like saying "Ok, before you get to play quake 2 you have to get kicked in the junk back to back for 2 weeks. Oh and you can't take a break or we'll boot you out and the time you just spent won't count towards your total."

 

Yeah, that's not how games are supposed to work.

[RealAeiouy]

Op you are wrong. Expertise needs to be increased and

and made more important to keep pvers out of warzones afking for gear go use in pve.

[Vaipyr]

Op you are wrong. Expertise needs to be increased and

and made more important to keep pvers out of warzones afking for gear go use in pve.

 

Where are these servers full of terribad people that this happens?

 

I'm on a fricken PvE server ffs and the WZ queues are always bumpin, 5 mins max at dead times of the night, almost noone ever afk's. It's so rare that those people are remembered and shunned and more premades are popping up all the time.

[Krystaf]

PvP should be about player Vs Player .. not gear.

 

PvP gear should be cosmetic ... higher ranks = Shiney new gear.

 

If you want *better* gear for PvPin .. your doing it wrong.

 

'nuff said.

[TehHoneyBadger]

Lets face it, PvP atm is exactly this

 

 

Level 50 vs Level 50

 

 

Expertise vs Expertise..... That is all pvp is now. GW BIOWARE!! love it, really makes it kind of.... dull and a little too easy. Maybe I should just max out different characters.. and since theres no gear progression.. well then quit.

[Elaithe]

I have spent a lot of time recently on the forums, specifically the PvP forum, and have seen more than enough threads regarding gear changes in 1.2. The PvP crowd complaining about the easymode gear changes and lack of any true PvP in general, the PvE crowd complaining that PvPers only complain because they want to faceroll fresh 50's who aren't geared and they don't want a challenge. However, I don't think that I have seen anyone actual address the issue of a 'level playing field', including Bioware.

 

This is how I see it. I realize this will be a wall of text and may crit some readers for 99,999 damage so I bolded what I felt were the main points. However, feel free to read it all.

 

PvP gear has a stat that increases the amount of damage you do to other players and decreases the damage you take from other players: Expertise (for anyone that might still not know what Expertise does). Each tier of PvP gear increases the amount of Expertise over the lower tiers: Cent, Champ, BM, and now the upcoming War Hero tier.

 

For a while it was semi difficult to obtain the PvP sets but people complained about getting stomped on by people who play more and were able to get better gear at a quicker pace. So Bioware made it easier to get gear but still required that players put work into participating in PvP, be it on Ilum or in Warzones. That wasn't good enough for some people so the complaints continued. Now Bioware is making PvP gear available for purchase from a vendor for credits and Valor isn't required for anything. So a fresh level 50 is now able to get full Cent (perhaps Champ as well, I've seen some people say yes to Champ vendor and some say no) without actually participating in PvP.

 

That does not create a level playing field. It creates a temporary fix to a very short term problem. If the problem is leveling the playing field so that people are required to be skillful to be competitive then why not eliminate the stat that grants one player an advantage? Remove Expertise from all PvP gear, make set bonuses for PvP gear slightly more geared toward PvP combat, and that's that. That way no one has an advantage over other players based solely on having gear with a stat that is designed to give one player an advantage over another player.

 

Expertise, or its equivalent in other MMO's, should be reserved for gear that is stupid hard to get and requires players to go way out of their way to get. That way if someone has it you know they worked their *** off. Either that or just never use a stat that is designed to give long term PvP players an advantage over fresh 50's.

 

Feel free to comment with disagreements or other suggestions but please keep it civil.

 

Edit: This thread is intended to suggest an alternative change to what Bioware has slated for 1.2 release. I do not care to keep new players from getting geared out so that I can face stomp them easier. To me, removing Expertise and tweaking PvP gear will do more to 'level the playing field' than 1.2.

 

There is a lot of really bad logic in this post. For one, assuming PvP players want ridiculous gateways into PvP (grinding out gear against already geared players) is just insane. Any real PvPer would rather have everyone in the same gear so the skilled players actually stand out because of their skill and not their shiny gear advantage.

 

Secondly, you assume BioWare is changing the way gear is obtained because of whining on the forums about how hard it is to get gear. This is silly, BioWare had planned this implementation before release, the current state of PvP isn't what they wanted in the first place, 1.2 is much closer to their goal. Also, no one was complaining about how hard gear was to obtain because it required any kind of skill, effort, or time. They complained because it was based off a bag system that was 100% random, which is an awful way of doing gear. BioWare has been steadily addressing the problem since release and in 1.2 is eliminating any sort of randomness to gearing in PvP.

 

Thirdly, the only gear available for credits is a starter set that will allow people to be competitive once they hit 50 against other level 50s. It's a huge problem right now, in order to get PvP gear you need to PvP however if you que up with 12k HP people get extremely upset at you and you can't compete against other level 50s because you get royally stomped due to lack of gear. It only makes sense to give people a readily available option to bring themselves up to acceptable levels in order to obtain the higher end gear.

 

And lastly, your last nugget of wisdom, removing expertise. Expertise at least allows BioWare to differentiate PvE and PvP gear. You complain in the entire post about people jumping into PvP without having to PvP and than you drop this little bomb. Whats to stop my full Rakata sentinel from never stepping into PvP, getting full Rakata, and than stomping everyone because I have the best gear possible? Expertise is the answer to that question right now, removing expertise will just make PvE the easiest gear progression for PvP. It makes literally 0 sense.

[TehHoneyBadger]

The fact that your playtime consists of:

Spawn

**** victim

Spawn

**** victim

Spawn

**** victim

 

For x amount of time before you actually get to PLAY. It's like saying "Ok, before you get to play quake 2 you have to get kicked in the junk back to back for 2 weeks. Oh and you can't take a break or we'll boot you out and the time you just spent won't count towards your total."

 

Yeah, that's not how games are supposed to work.

 

its called an MMORPG not an FPS you fool. Everyone should be different, struggles included.....

[KonstantinT]

There is no problem with expertise. It makes it so that you can pvp in a somewhat even environment. Get 400 expertise and you can compete. It's easy. The rest are really tiny upgrades and different looks, expertise has built in diminishing returns which makes it so that full centurion has decent chance against full BM (yes BM is better, but not 10 times better).

 

If you remove expertise then pve will not have tiers. You would be able to skip tier 1 and 2 flashpoints by pvp and jump straight into tier 3. I assume PVEers will have a problem with that. If you keep pvp gear to low stats then those that PVE a lot will have much higher stats and stomp everyone in pvp, this defeats the whole point of even playfield in pvp. Most players will have a problem with that as well.

 

Currently wearing best pve gear is about same as wearing best pvp gear in a warzone. Simple example: 15k hp in pvp gear is about same as 18k hp in pve gear. You will just get hit for more and hit for less, but your higher primary stats will compensate.

 

Please BW, this is one thing you got right, you know what you are doing in this case. Do not listen to people like original poster that do not understand simple logic.

Edited March 16, 2012 by KonstantinT

[JuMoraf]

Instead of having expertise just put a restriction on pvp and pve gear. Make them both capable of being used in world play but if a end game raider has endgame raider gear he cant pvp in it and vice versa thus not having any extra stats and allowing the gear to be worn in normal world combat.

[Barzarel]

You do realise that the whole Resilience and now expertise is a by product of the fact, that raiders were whinning that people who pvp, should not get gear on levels with what they earned in raiding, and the pvp community were against pve raiders whenever they got bored went into pvp and stomped out pvp players with their better stats from raiding gear.

 

So less the mentaility changes on that i doubt you gonna be seeing removals of expertise.

 

But personal i think its sad, that game play options gets much more restricted when you have to farm both things, if you enjoy doing both, but then again it was what people asked for back when it came to life.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Barzarel

[Nessirin]

You remove the PvP stat and we go back to the days of Vanilla WoW PvE-gear-facerolls-everything-else.

 

 

Or if you give PvP the same level of gear as pve, with no pvp stat, it becomes easier to gear up using pvp than pve, making pve gear obsolete.

 

 

 

Personally I wish PvP was something like Oblivion's arena. You have awesome gear? That's nice. Here's an arena set, put it on and only then can you do arena.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Nessirin

[Wassawp]

Yay , remove expertise so that battlemaster geared people get ridiculously stomped by anyone in rakata. Because that's the point...

[Aedilous]

Op you are wrong. Expertise needs to be increased and

and made more important to keep pvers out of warzones afking for gear go use in pve.

 

Why am I wrong and why doesn Expertise need to be increased?

[Zalgred]

I agree completely with the OP.

 

Expertise rating needs to go...

 

Pvp armor sets should add more bonuses to certain skill, and that way create a certain advantage against players who doesn't have the gear...

 

Add a 2 pieces bonus, a 3 pieces bonus, a 4 pieces bonus, etc...

[Apollonel]

PvP should be about player Vs Player .. not gear.

 

PvP gear should be cosmetic ... higher ranks = Shiney new gear.

 

If you want *better* gear for PvPin .. your doing it wrong.

 

exactly.

 

as it is here, and in most mmos, gear > skill.

which translates to: time > skill.

 

so you might be a better player,

but just because i spend more time on the game, i'll beat you

[Arnathis]

OP's solution almost completely removes the gear progression for pvp

[Khoraji]

go play COD if you want everyone to have the same gear. This is an RPG.

[jgarib]

Edit: This thread is intended to suggest an alternative change to what Bioware has slated for 1.2 release. I do not care to keep new players from getting geared out so that I can face stomp them easier. To me, removing Expertise and tweaking PvP gear will do more to 'level the playing field' than 1.2.

 

The problem is not expertise. It is the variance of expertise. I think expertise is a fantastic thing. It separates PVP gear from PVE gear. It allows the game designers to define a clear path of progression in PVE that is separate from the progression in PVP.

 

 

I think they need to increase expertise and make it uniform across all PVP sets. PVP gear should have drastically lower stats than comparable PVE gear, with expertise leveling it out--that way you'd be crazy not to use PVP gear when doing PVP and even more crazy to want to use PvP gear when doing PvE. Gear progression is fine in PVP but it should be based on stat increases not expertise increase. Expertise should be the gate that forces the use of PVP gear while participating in PVP, the stat increases should be left to the stats.

 

Example: low level PVP gear should have 150 expertise, 30 strength, 40 endurance. High level would have 150 expertise, 45 strength, 55 endurance. High level PvE gear would have 0 expertise, 80 strength, 95 endurance.

 

This isn't completely thought out and is only meant to give a gist of what I think would benefit the system.. and i'm sure its something the devs have already considered. The fact is, people like gear progression in MMO's and PVP... but the current expertise system provides way too large of a gap to make pvp enjoyable to any but those who have the gear.

 

Most the folks who are on the side of preserving the expertise gap were those who gained most of their gear before the lvl 50 bracket. They have no idea what it's like to acquire the gear after 50. And doing it with an alt is not the same, as you've already gotten some perspective as to how things will end up eventually. Those who are new to 50 with their first character have no perspective to let them know that if they stick it out a few weeks things will get better end up getting frustrated and completely stop PvP.

Edited March 16, 2012 by jgarib

[Arlanon]

So instead of a massive overhaul of the entire system and the way it is designed, how about instead simply requesting that the PvP starter sets be put back into the game? You know, the tier below Centurion that you could simply buy?

 

That way everyone would have some level of Expertise going in, and it's something that was already coded, but maybe that's too easy. One of the finer points of professional whining is to ask for things that are ludicrously unfeasible.

[Zunayson]

And then the geared out PvE'ers would show up and roflstomp everyone.

 

They PvE'd. You should PvE, then. This game is all about PvE, and people say PvP is just a "mini-game". If this is the case, go out and get geared like them. It's really the same thing, but then again, I wish you'd be forced to fight naked (With the visual aesthetics still there, of course...)

[Aethyrprime]

As much as I hate PvP only stats I understand why they are needed. Pure PvPers will always need gear that is BiS for PvP without demanding they do raid content to get it. Otherwise PVE/RAIDERs will always have the gear advantage. It's just a symptom of level/gear based games. The sooner you get over your innate hatred of the PvP stat the sooner you will be able to enjoy it like the rest. Until the day comes that gear is not a massive issue for players at all you can expect to always see this type of setup in some form or fashion.

[iloveicarly]

I have spent a lot of time recently on the forums, specifically the PvP forum, and have seen more than enough threads regarding gear changes in 1.2. The PvP crowd complaining about the easymode gear changes and lack of any true PvP in general, the PvE crowd complaining that PvPers only complain because they want to faceroll fresh 50's who aren't geared and they don't want a challenge. However, I don't think that I have seen anyone actual address the issue of a 'level playing field', including Bioware.

 

This is how I see it. I realize this will be a wall of text and may crit some readers for 99,999 damage so I bolded what I felt were the main points. However, feel free to read it all.

 

PvP gear has a stat that increases the amount of damage you do to other players and decreases the damage you take from other players: Expertise (for anyone that might still not know what Expertise does). Each tier of PvP gear increases the amount of Expertise over the lower tiers: Cent, Champ, BM, and now the upcoming War Hero tier.

 

For a while it was semi difficult to obtain the PvP sets but people complained about getting stomped on by people who play more and were able to get better gear at a quicker pace. So Bioware made it easier to get gear but still required that players put work into participating in PvP, be it on Ilum or in Warzones. That wasn't good enough for some people so the complaints continued. Now Bioware is making PvP gear available for purchase from a vendor for credits and Valor isn't required for anything. So a fresh level 50 is now able to get full Cent (perhaps Champ as well, I've seen some people say yes to Champ vendor and some say no) without actually participating in PvP.

 

That does not create a level playing field. It creates a temporary fix to a very short term problem. If the problem is leveling the playing field so that people are required to be skillful to be competitive then why not eliminate the stat that grants one player an advantage? Remove Expertise from all PvP gear, make set bonuses for PvP gear slightly more geared toward PvP combat, and that's that. That way no one has an advantage over other players based solely on having gear with a stat that is designed to give one player an advantage over another player.

 

Expertise, or its equivalent in other MMO's, should be reserved for gear that is stupid hard to get and requires players to go way out of their way to get. That way if someone has it you know they worked their *** off. Either that or just never use a stat that is designed to give long term PvP players an advantage over fresh 50's.

 

Feel free to comment with disagreements or other suggestions but please keep it civil.

 

Edit: This thread is intended to suggest an alternative change to what Bioware has slated for 1.2 release. I do not care to keep new players from getting geared out so that I can face stomp them easier. To me, removing Expertise and tweaking PvP gear will do more to 'level the playing field' than 1.2.

 

are you sure your right pics or a vid to prove?