Time to get rid of Expertise

[_droider_]

y do people get so bent out of shape about expertise?

 

As a player who pretty much exclusively does warzones and crafting I like "gear progression" to increase my stats and have something to work for.

 

Please spare me the if you were a real pvper you would just want to pvp.....

 

I do pvp just to pvp but I like gearing my character, I would play gw or an fps if I wanted everyone to have same gear stats and such....

 

I duno different strokes for differnt folks

 

Honestly I think CC and the Resolve Bar need to be addressed before anything in pvp on this game...

 

Exactly. People want their time to have meaning. Promising useless shinies will only infuriate people; they want gear progression.

 

In an MMO not to be named, they normalized their PVP stat across all PVP gear sets, and only increased the normal stats on the better gear. This maintained the necessary balance between PVP and PVE gear, while not making the hardcore PVPrs faceroll players with entry level PVP gear.

 

Like others have said, expertise should not be a deciding factor between two people wearing full PVP gear, it should only be used as a deterrent on the use of PVE gear.

[ekwalizer]

That's exactly it. WoW figure out years ago that raiding gear allowed raiders to instantly become battleground gods, and resilience was added to fix that. This way, people who PvP are not put at an unfair disadvantage by people who faceroll raid content and never bothered to PvP before.

 

Expertise is staying.

 

Here's a thought. Have the current tiered PvP/PvE gear with the exact same stats, just different appearance. Tionese = Centurion, Columni = Champion, Rakata = BM.

 

Solves the above problem.

[Aedilous]

Here's a thought. Have the current tiered PvP/PvE gear with the exact same stats, just different appearance. Tionese = Centurion, Columni = Champion, Rakata = BM.

 

Solves the above problem.

 

Looking at it from a "how do we equalize PvP for new 50's and long term players" that's a decent idea. I'll probably get jumped in the parking lot for this but in my opinion the most 'equal' MMO that I have played is Global Agenda. Doesn't matter that it's free to play, doesn't matter that it isn't a RPG. In Global all gear has pretty much the same stats so every player is wearing pretty much the same gear. You can change how you look with an appearance tab. It is hands down the most 'equal' playing field that you'll play on. Matches come down to who is a better player and whose teams works together best to achieve the objective. PvP is tiered better to make sure that like level opponents are competing against each other.

 

For a game like ToR, however, making everyone wear the same gear in PvP won't work. In fact, I can't imagine anyone having fun that way in a MMORPG. There isn't anything to look forward to. Players don't have anything to really look forward to at end game. No items to work for, no gear to obtain. There wouldn't be anything to do at endgame besides more instanced PvP where you compete in one of the same three warzones all over again.

[jayill]

Have to agree with the OP, expertise creates more whiners than a whinery.

[JediDuckling]

I have spent a lot of time recently on the forums, specifically the PvP forum, and have seen more than enough threads regarding gear changes in 1.2. The PvP crowd complaining about the easymode gear changes and lack of any true PvP in general, the PvE crowd complaining that PvPers only complain because they want to faceroll fresh 50's who aren't geared and they don't want a challenge. However, I don't think that I have seen anyone actual address the issue of a 'level playing field', including Bioware.

 

This is how I see it. I realize this will be a wall of text and may crit some readers for 99,999 damage so I bolded what I felt were the main points. However, feel free to read it all.

 

PvP gear has a stat that increases the amount of damage you do to other players and decreases the damage you take from other players: Expertise (for anyone that might still not know what Expertise does). Each tier of PvP gear increases the amount of Expertise over the lower tiers: Cent, Champ, BM, and now the upcoming War Hero tier.

 

For a while it was semi difficult to obtain the PvP sets but people complained about getting stomped on by people who play more and were able to get better gear at a quicker pace. So Bioware made it easier to get gear but still required that players put work into participating in PvP, be it on Ilum or in Warzones. That wasn't good enough for some people so the complaints continued. Now Bioware is making PvP gear available for purchase from a vendor for credits and Valor isn't required for anything. So a fresh level 50 is now able to get full Cent (perhaps Champ as well, I've seen some people say yes to Champ vendor and some say no) without actually participating in PvP.

 

That does not create a level playing field. It creates a temporary fix to a very short term problem. If the problem is leveling the playing field so that people are required to be skillful to be competitive then why not eliminate the stat that grants one player an advantage? Remove Expertise from all PvP gear, make set bonuses for PvP gear slightly more geared toward PvP combat, and that's that. That way no one has an advantage over other players based solely on having gear with a stat that is designed to give one player an advantage over another player.

 

Expertise, or its equivalent in other MMO's, should be reserved for gear that is stupid hard to get and requires players to go way out of their way to get. That way if someone has it you know they worked their *** off. Either that or just never use a stat that is designed to give long term PvP players an advantage over fresh 50's.

 

Feel free to comment with disagreements or other suggestions but please keep it civil.

 

Edit: This thread is intended to suggest an alternative change to what Bioware has slated for 1.2 release. I do not care to keep new players from getting geared out so that I can face stomp them easier. To me, removing Expertise and tweaking PvP gear will do more to 'level the playing field' than 1.2.

 

expertise seperates pvp gear from pve

 

expertise is perfectly fine

 

 

if your having trouble in pvp its most likely a class problem

[JaddynnStarr]

I don't disagree that the stat needs to go, but fixing it would require throwing out many player's time spent collecting it. Even making it easier has pissed a lot of people off, not because I think they want to faceroll people, but because they dedicated hundreds of hours and subscription costs to play a game the way they expected it.

 

A core gameplay change like this would effectively destroy the playerbase like what happened with SWG. Bioware customer service is also lacking, so I doubt they would be able to effectively damage control. Again, I don't disagree, but a lot of people pvp solely, and have an expectation based on how things currently run.

 

cmon... really???? if your a quitter cuz u spent 2 months in a game and now u feel like youve lost time... think again... there is always gonna be another carrot that you are gonna have to spend months on to get.. 2 months is a drop in the bucket for most MMO's. There should be NO complaints about losing a month or 2's worth of grinding when most ot the LEET geared crew took advantage of valor exploits to begin with to get fully geared after week 1... That **** needs to stop right the **** now... pfff ... gettin mad cuzsomeoneelse earned their geara lil easier then you do... pathetic and silly...

[Llenyd]

If the problem is leveling the playing field so that people are required to be skillful to be competitive then why not eliminate the stat that grants one player an advantage?

 

ALL stats give an advantage.

 

If you remove expertise from gear, the better geared player still has higher overall stats and thus, still has an advantage. People who single out expertise are not seeing the big picture.

[jayill]

ALL stats give an advantage.

 

If you remove expertise from gear, the better geared player still has higher overall stats and thus, still has an advantage. People who single out expertise are not seeing the big picture.

 

That's what I'm saying. Why not just make this game a fps with static, identical toons? No leveling, no gearing, or anything!

Edited March 15, 2012 by jayill

[ExiledOut]

I really hate saying things like this, because of all the crap that people say about those that say these things but...

 

PvP is NOT gear dependant to the degree that a lot of people seem to think it is.

My proof: I was in a HB game one day. Messing around with a guy on my side, we decided to fight with no armour or implants or anything on and using PvE sabres.

I killed a guy in centurion armour SOLO.

Am I great? NO I am very average at PvP and openly admit it. Was he really bad?

Maybe.. But remember, you 'gear is unbalanced' people seem to think that a bad player in good gear will beat a good player in bad gear.

Also I'm a Guardian. Not the best PvP class or player by a long way.

[Bnol]

Expertise protects the pve only and pvp only player from having to participate in the area that they have no interest in doing. Without it both sides would need to participate in both to stay competitive. It also slows down the rate of gearing (particularly PVE) to make content last longer.

 

It is not going away so stop with these posts.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Bnol

[Dracosz]

The simplest solution would be to raise BASE health pools significantly whilst keeping damage stats the same.

[ALDrinkwater]

The game i used to play didnt have a pvp stat, the way you built the gear kinda depended on what you would do in it. You could build it so you crit more for pvp, or just do alot of damage without crits for pve. having a pure pvp stat is kinda pointless tbh.

[Evixy]

For a while it was semi difficult to obtain the PvP sets but people complained about getting stomped on by people who play more and were able to get better gear at a quicker pace

 

That made me lol considering all those who got BM early exploited Ilum when it was possible.

[Cruorpunctis]

I have spent a lot of time recently on the forums, specifically the PvP forum, and have seen more than enough threads regarding gear changes in 1.2. The PvP crowd complaining about the easymode gear changes and lack of any true PvP in general, the PvE crowd complaining that PvPers only complain because they want to faceroll fresh 50's who aren't geared and they don't want a challenge. However, I don't think that I have seen anyone actual address the issue of a 'level playing field', including Bioware.

 

This is how I see it. I realize this will be a wall of text and may crit some readers for 99,999 damage so I bolded what I felt were the main points. However, feel free to read it all.

 

PvP gear has a stat that increases the amount of damage you do to other players and decreases the damage you take from other players: Expertise (for anyone that might still not know what Expertise does). Each tier of PvP gear increases the amount of Expertise over the lower tiers: Cent, Champ, BM, and now the upcoming War Hero tier.

 

For a while it was semi difficult to obtain the PvP sets but people complained about getting stomped on by people who play more and were able to get better gear at a quicker pace. So Bioware made it easier to get gear but still required that players put work into participating in PvP, be it on Ilum or in Warzones. That wasn't good enough for some people so the complaints continued. Now Bioware is making PvP gear available for purchase from a vendor for credits and Valor isn't required for anything. So a fresh level 50 is now able to get full Cent (perhaps Champ as well, I've seen some people say yes to Champ vendor and some say no) without actually participating in PvP.

 

That does not create a level playing field. It creates a temporary fix to a very short term problem. If the problem is leveling the playing field so that people are required to be skillful to be competitive then why not eliminate the stat that grants one player an advantage? Remove Expertise from all PvP gear, make set bonuses for PvP gear slightly more geared toward PvP combat, and that's that. That way no one has an advantage over other players based solely on having gear with a stat that is designed to give one player an advantage over another player.

 

Expertise, or its equivalent in other MMO's, should be reserved for gear that is stupid hard to get and requires players to go way out of their way to get. That way if someone has it you know they worked their *** off. Either that or just never use a stat that is designed to give long term PvP players an advantage over fresh 50's.

 

Feel free to comment with disagreements or other suggestions but please keep it civil.

 

Edit: This thread is intended to suggest an alternative change to what Bioware has slated for 1.2 release. I do not care to keep new players from getting geared out so that I can face stomp them easier. To me, removing Expertise and tweaking PvP gear will do more to 'level the playing field' than 1.2.

 

As a BiS geared pve'er I can tell you right now that I already rolfstomp everyone who isn't battlemaster in warzones, and even battlemaster only has a slight edge over me.

If they remove expertise as a stat, then come 1.2 I and all my guildmates who get geared extremely fast through pve will be stomping all pvper's who do not also pve.. lol.

[Roycerson]

There has to be a clear benefit and incentive to wear PvP gear to PvP, and PvE gear to PvE.

 

 

Why?

 

I come from a game that is not WoW and very different than this. There was no such thing as PVE or PVP gear, just PVE or PVP builds. I am aware that many people share this opinion of yours and what I've never understood is, why? Why is it so important that a guy can't just stop killing mobs and start killing players in whatever he's wearing?

[Nhaok]

Sweet. So top gear earned from PvP will be equivalent to Nightmare raid gear.

 

 

LOL

Edited March 15, 2012 by Nhaok

[Aedilous]

ALL stats give an advantage.

 

If you remove expertise from gear, the better geared player still has higher overall stats and thus, still has an advantage. People who single out expertise are not seeing the big picture.

 

I understand that all stats increase your potential. However, no other stat in the game is designed with the specific intent of giving one player an advantage over another player. Outside of PvP Expertise has no use. Getting rid of Expertise and, potentially, increasing the overall stat line of each gear piece in a set means that no player can say, "in addition to my regular stat line, which you also have, I have Expertise to grant extra damage/damage mitigation". Allowing fresh 50's to purchase PvP gear doesn't eliminate the problem of an uneven playing field. Some players will still have higher Expertise because they have played longer and have full BM.

 

Like I said earlier, personally I don't think that there is a problem with PvP as it has been until now. Keep Expertise and gear progression. Basically I agree with a lot of PvP'ers that changing the system is unnecessary. However, if Bioware is determined to change their system entirely to create a 'level' PvP experience then I'd rather they do something other than what they currently have scheduled. Giving away gear for free doesn't fix the problem. In fact it's a step in the wrong direction, in my opinion. What it says to me is that Bioware is going to cave in and cater to the non-PvP crowd on PvP matters.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Aedilous

[Aedilous]

Expertise protects the pve only and pvp only player from having to participate in the area that they have no interest in doing. Without it both sides would need to participate in both to stay competitive. It also slows down the rate of gearing (particularly PVE) to make content last longer.

 

It is not going away so stop with these posts.

 

That's true. But the way I see it Bioware is changing the system in a way that doesn't really address their issue. Most of what I have seen on these forums for calls to change the system are because new players don't feel like it's fair to get roflstomped by players who have played for a while. In reality that's just too damn bad. If you don't have gear because you just started and you end up fighting someone who has played for a while and who has better gear then chances are you will come up short. It's the way it is.

 

Instead of the new player taking it in stride and continuing to play so that he can get geared as well and one day find that player and say to him, "Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die", the new player complains to Bioware. Then Bioware changes the system so that the new player gets Expertise gear super easily.

 

Personally, I'd rather get rid of Expertise and make it so that I have to run PvE and PvP to get the gear that I need to stay competitive. It means I feel like I accomplished something and earned my rank/gear/status/whatever. I do see where it would upset other players though to have to do something they don't care for.

 

Thanks for the reply.

[Aedilous]

As a BiS geared pve'er I can tell you right now that I already rolfstomp everyone who isn't battlemaster in warzones, and even battlemaster only has a slight edge over me.

If they remove expertise as a stat, then come 1.2 I and all my guildmates who get geared extremely fast through pve will be stomping all pvper's who do not also pve.. lol.

 

Good. I'd rather see that happen than to see them give away gear for credits. Let me as you something. You said that you are BiS geared (not familier with that gear so if you could explain I'd appreciate it) and roll through PvP. Did you get to buy your PvE gear off of a merchant for credits instead of running your PvE material and earning it? That is the part that most PvPers are upset about with the change. People cry so Bioware gives away what they had to earn. Whether you feel like BM was stolen on Ilum or not doesn't matter because those people still had to go to Ilum and play the game to wear that gear. Now it doesn't matter. I can make a new toon tonight, hit 50 in a week, buy Champ gear for credits without ever having run a PvP instance.

[Yatzol]

Yep worst thing to ever come to pvp was pvp specific stats.

[hellczar]

I PvP and I want good gear to show for it. To those who say gear doesn't matter you don't bring a knife to a gun fight. The very Nature of video RPG's has been about gear since nearly it's inception. If you want to play a gearless Player vs Player game play a FPS.

 

Is my time PvP'ing not as equally valuable as those who PvE for Gear? People PvE to get an advantage in PvE so should not people who PvP for gear get an advantage in PvP?

[Arlanon]

Expertise is a very clever mechanic.

 

Anyone who has Expertise does more damage to players with less Expertise, and takes less damage from those same players. This gives incentive to participate in pvp and provides a reward for players who do a lot of it.

 

The real genius of it though is not so obvious.

 

Suppose both players have roughly the same amount of Expertise. That means they have sacrificed a portion of Strength, Willpower, Aim, or Cunning, to achieve that amount of Expertise. Essentially, both players are nerfing each other to achieve that common ground, as their pvp % bonuses cancel each other out, and they are left with lower overall stats than they would have had in PvE gear. That makes high level fights last longer, so we don't 3-shot each other.

 

Please don't remove Expertise, it's working as intended.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Arlanon

[Ritterific]

Expertise is a very clever mechanic.

 

Anyone who has Expertise does more damage to players with less Expertise, and take less damage from those same players. This gives incentive to participate in pvp and provides a reward for players who do a lot of it.

 

The real genius of it though is not so obvious.

 

Suppose both players have roughly the same amount of Expertise. That means they have sacrificed a portion of Strength, Willpower, Aim, or Cunning, to achieve that amount of Expertise. Essentially, both players are nerfing each other, to achieve that common ground. That makes high level fights last longer, so we don't 3-shot each other.

 

Please don't remove Expertise, it's working as intended.

 

You are correct sir! Very good summary of why expertise is a good system. It's such a good system in fact that the "big dog" WoW is copying it for their next expansion.

 

Expertise also keeps PvE geared players from becoming too powerful in PvP. While the PvE gear might have higher damage stats, in PvP combat, expertise still negates that damage. So a BiS geared PvE player should do roughly as much damage as a BiS PvP player, even though they have more raw stats. The PvP player however will do more damage to the PvE player who has no expertise. This keeps PvE gear usable in PvP but not optimal.

 

So, kudos to Bioware for comming up with an elegant solution to keeping PvE and PvP gear relatively balanced. They do need to maybe do some rebalancing so that fresh 50's aren't destroyed by fully geared PvP people, but hopefully rated PvP will alleviate this some.

[sensiblepoast]

Is that supposed to be a counter argument?

 

Its not, i'd be quite happy with shiney gear rather than stat upgrades. Its takes away the grind and allows you to get new raiders into the loop right away without having to gear them up. Gear grinds are horrible.

 

Just not sure why you feel this is a counter to my point?

 

You maybe. 99% of the PVE guys sure wouldn't be happy about it. This MMO is based on gear progression, and a bunch are saying that you aren't supposed to be getting any kind of gear progression and be happy about it.

 

I'm not particularly interested in gear progression or grind either. Unless some other guys are getting it in a MMO based on gear progression, because in that case I refuse to be treated as a second rate subscriber.

 

The warzone tedium was tolerable because at least you got gear to be ready for whenever they got their act together and fixed world pvp or ilum or whatever they want to call it. If it is not required I really don't feel like continuing to play until the stuff I like is fixed. And I'm sure there'll be more people like me.

 

I know they are working hard on changes and improvements but unfortunately none of them are appealing enough to me.

Edited March 16, 2012 by sensiblepoast

[Llenyd]

Why?

 

I come from a game that is not WoW and very different than this. There was no such thing as PVE or PVP gear, just PVE or PVP builds. I am aware that many people share this opinion of yours and what I've never understood is, why? Why is it so important that a guy can't just stop killing mobs and start killing players in whatever he's wearing?

 

Player 1 does PVE and gets two pieces of gear a week.

Player 2 does PVP and gets two pieces of gear a week.

Player 3 does PVE and PvP and gets four pieces of gear a week.

 

If all gear is the same:

Player 3 has an advantage over Player 1 in PvE from doing PvP content. Player 1 is forced to PvP even if they don't like it in order to stay competitive.

Player 3 also has an advantage over Player 2 in PvP from doing PvE. Player 2 is forced to PvE even if they don't like it in order to stay competitive.

 

So the gear is separated such that PvE progression comes from PvE and PvP progression comes from PvP.