Lethality > MM Sniper - From a diehard MM supporter

[Nezlezar]

(Didn't mean to post this on the PVP forum, duplicating it here where it should be)

 

Awhile back someone posted how much better lethality was versus marksman and all the MM players jumped on about how wrong he was. At the time, I knew MM to be better than lethality having tried it out myself. It was garbage. People would say that lethality just pads the damage numbers but didn't actually contribute to winning a WZ. Over the next few weeks I would sometimes go back to lethality and try to see why it was popular to some. I just couldn't see it.

 

Then I hit BattleMaster.

 

 

Oh, I see now. MM simply does not scale as well as lethality with gear progression. Where as before it was difficult to kill someone with lethality (I never could see why Cull was amazing), it is now unstoppable. And I don't even consider myself to be that well geared yet (just a few BM pieces now) and it just does crazy damage. Opponents literally spill out these relatively 'small' numbers that are so frequent I can't even see them on the screen individually. Anyone that isn't full BM doesn't even take the full combo to kill. It was fun seeing 5k hits as MM but those big numbers are misleading to the damage you are doing in the big picture.

 

I highly recommend the lethality haters to gear up first before complaining about it. I suppose having the right spec is important too. I went up just high enough for Cull and went up to Imperial Methodology in Engineering. The result leaves me with several options for damage that lets me handle any situation.

 

Healer > C.Grenade, Dart, Cull...wait a second or two/interrupt them and takedown. Healers generally have another dps on them so there is no sense in wasting energy on overkill.

 

Anyone not at full health > Exp. probe, SoS and then takedown. Would rather not waste the full 70 energy on the Cull combo since they usually die before the poisons can tick longer.

 

1 vs. 1 or other battlemasters > Int. probe for snare, C. Grenade, Dart, Exp. probe, Cull, SoS, takedown. Adrenaline probe thrown in there at some point depending on how bursty I need to make it. Also leg shot to get some distance as I kite them around. I've never seen more frustrated players in my life. Stealth jumps me? Slip Away talents with debilitate and it's the same process.

 

Sometimes others just run away because they have some pride issues about possibly dying. It's typically the Battlemasters that do this. So for 70 energy that takes me a few seconds to recover, they are essentially out of the match for a good 30 seconds or more. I don't chase them, I typically slog on to the next fool and maybe he'll take himself out of the match too. If that's not effective, I don't know what is.

 

The only downsides I have with lethality are the energy issues. I get around this by pacing the use of the abilities. C.Grenade and dart and then I wait a second before Cull. I save the probe for when I have to get bursty and typically don't run into issues. The problem does arise when the combat is non stop but then I try to focus on one target, kill them and then immediately go into recuperate. As long as they were the only target I've been involved with, recuperate comes up immediately and full energy comes within seconds.

 

So after countless hours playing with both specs...lethality is on top for sure. Problem is, I don't think it should be. To me it seems that MM is riddled with problems that only arise at end game PVP. So few people play sniper to begin with (about 15 sorcs for every 1 sniper on my server) that many don't even see what I (and a few others here) have been saying.

MM white damage is killing the class and those of us that stick to it have to play, imo, a spec that isn't really a sniper at all just to be viable.

 

I would like to hear some feedback from the die hard MM supporters. Have you geared up to full 156+ and tried both specs? What do you think?

 

Oh, a quick note on defenses. It is quite sad that I survive far more as lethality than MM. You would think having to take cover in MM would let us survive better. Nope, not even close. As lethality I can move around and kite melee. As MM, I'm pinned down and move just enough to reset dampers. Something isn't right when all that extra talents in MM (dampers, cover screen, imp. demarcation, heavy shot, diversion, sector ranger, pillbox) don't let me live longer than speccing elsewhere. That's a huge number of talents wasted (11 points). How many defense points in a lethality spec? FOUR. AND I LIVE LONGER.

 

So sad.

 

tldr; Lethality scales better in PVP than MM and it is only then that you can see how badly MM is. I love MM and that is how a sniper should 'play' but it just does not work end game.

 

 

EDIT 1: No one dispels in Warzones. Not even when I face premades. It *IS* a problem that I am completely nullified by a cleanse but it just does not happen so I can't comment on it more than that.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Nezlezar

[TehChozenOne]

Good post for the MM Fanboys.

 

Perhaps someday they'll learn. Leth/Engineering used to be better, but the most recent patch removed DoTs from preventing caps, so they hurt our utility quite a bit.

 

I will however say that MM is MUCH better 1v1 verses Operatives, Marauders, and Assassins. Mainly due to the fact that all three of those classes can Vanish your Cull, and Ops/*** can cleanse your DoTs.

[Nezlezar]

I see the changes to dots interrupting as a positive thing even though it took something away from me. Having it interrupt was entirely too crazy and would rather have the way it is now. I'm still on the fence about the dots interrupting recuperate. It's extremely annoying for me since I tend to go into recuperate a lot but I like how I can take someone out of a WZ for a long time while they run off to recover and can't until my dots are gone. I think I'll be indifferent if it stays or changes.

 

As for the sneaky guys...I don't care if they vanish/cleanse. I usually relocate my position while dotting up their team. If the operative is so hellbent on taking me out...then I've successfully removed them from the WZ by chasing me as I kill their team. If they vanish to heal up, same thing. The good ones can cleanse/vanish and immediately be right back on me and so they then get the slip away debilitate and snare combo.

[jaakkeli]

I see the changes to dots interrupting as a positive thing even though it took something away from me. Having it interrupt was entirely too crazy and would rather have the way it is now. I'm still on the fence about the dots interrupting recuperate. It's extremely annoying for me since I tend to go into recuperate a lot but I like how I can take someone out of a WZ for a long time while they run off to recover and can't until my dots are gone. I think I'll be indifferent if it stays or changes.

 

It is a funny source of "solo kill" medals though. Generally whenever I see myself about to die I try to get the most of it by spending all my energy on darts/grenades and usually see myself getting the solo kill medal when I'm in the spawn box behind the force field and my dots finished off someone...

[Nezlezar]

It is a funny source of "solo kill" medals though. Generally whenever I see myself about to die I try to get the most of it by spending all my energy on darts/grenades and usually see myself getting the solo kill medal when I'm in the spawn box behind the force field and my dots finished off someone...

 

Lol I love that too. My favorite is to throw the C. Grenade when surrounded and then pop into cover with the Exp. Probe. As I fire SoS into the target the cluster bombs are blowing up and I feel like I am dying in a hail of gunfire and bombs dropping all around me in a glorious death.

[Veala]

 

I would like to hear some feedback from the die hard MM supporters. Have you geared up to full 156+ and tried both specs? What do you think?

 

 

I have, I still prefer MM. Lethality is like an elephant. It hits like a truck but doesn't change direction easily. MM is a lot more nimble. When things change on the battle field and there's a new, higher priority target over the one you were attacking, Marks can immediately start hitting it as hard as possible. Lethality needs to set up Cull again, and that's assuming you're not stuck waiting on Corrosive Grenade to cool down. Marks is also a lot better at pulling a surprise burst on a healer. Lethality telegraphs it every time you're going to attack someone, good healers head for the hills when they see that gas cloud. Marks can drop 10k+ on a healer simultaneously.

 

I will however say that MM is MUCH better 1v1 verses Operatives, Marauders, and Assassins. Mainly due to the fact that all three of those classes can Vanish your Cull, and Ops/*** can cleanse your DoTs.

 

This is the main reason I play MM though. People on my server know who I am, it's rare I have a warzone that I don't have to beat back multiple stealthers coming to drop me.

 

Oh, a quick note on defenses. It is quite sad that I survive far more as lethality than MM. You would think having to take cover in MM would let us survive better. Nope, not even close. As lethality I can move around and kite melee. As MM, I'm pinned down and move just enough to reset dampers. Something isn't right when all that extra talents in MM (dampers, cover screen, imp. demarcation, heavy shot, diversion, sector ranger, pillbox) don't let me live longer than speccing elsewhere. That's a huge number of talents wasted (11 points). How many defense points in a lethality spec? FOUR. AND I LIVE LONGER.

 

If this is true, there are some terrible deficiencies in your Marks playstyle. Diversion alone practically guarantees you survive any one on one. I've been jumped at 4k hp before, tossed out Diversion, and burst the attacker down before they could kill me. Not only that, but Lethality ruins all of your CC. When MM roots someone they stay rooted until you're ready to release them, same for Flashbang. To top it all off, unless you're fighting something like a Lethality Sniper (irony?), you should have almost permanent heavy armor level mitigation from dampers.

 

Also, kiting practically doesn't exist in this game. All melee classes have a wealth of gap closers and snares that you become vulnerable to as soon as you leave cover and start trying to kite.

 

It's funny though, cause I actually love Lethality/Eng. I've found I prefer 2/18/21 though. You give up ~3% Cull damage but it turns your Frag Grenades into mobile, single target beasts. It's not at all uncommon to see 2.5k crits against light armor.

[Technohic]

As having an assassin, whenever I see those stealthers; I STILL put at least one DoT on them. you may not want to waste the action on all of them, but a lot of assassins will use up their cleanse to keep fighting as it provides a defensive bonus rather than right before cloaking out. Now if shroud is not ready when they go to cloak, your DoT will still pop them out.

[Nezlezar]

I have, I still prefer MM. Lethality is like an elephant. It hits like a truck but doesn't change direction easily. MM is a lot more nimble. When things change on the battle field and there's a new, higher priority target over the one you were attacking, Marks can immediately start hitting it as hard as possible. Lethality needs to set up Cull again, and that's assuming you're not stuck waiting on Corrosive Grenade to cool down. Marks is also a lot better at pulling a surprise burst on a healer. Lethality telegraphs it every time you're going to attack someone, good healers head for the hills when they see that gas cloud. Marks can drop 10k+ on a healer simultaneously..

 

That's why I have a few options when it comes to damage combos. Grenade on cd and I need to switch targets, I drop the Exp. Probe and SoS. That alone is high damage and now grenade can be used to start the Cull combo. I won't ever claim lethality can drop that 10k like MM can but what it can do is sneak up on a healer like crazy. The dart and grenade are never noticed. So then comes Cull and the healer now feels the sting. Uh oh, let's heal up. Of course it is interrupted as I'm dropping the Exp. Probe and SoS on them. They simply don't live through it all. So while MM frontloads that 10k, I've slipped it in so that by the time they panic, they are dead.

 

When MM roots someone they stay rooted until you're ready to release them, same for Flashbang. To top it all off, unless you're fighting something like a Lethality Sniper (irony?), you should have almost permanent heavy armor level mitigation from dampers..

 

Of course the irony here is that you can't even enter cover if you are rooted. Now granted, that seems more like a bug than an intended design decision...it still doesn't change the fact that you can't go into cover. There are ledge bugs with cover as well. I think that is largely my point. MM is great but has some problems that need to be fixed.

[Radared]

This thread is really just to generate debate...and while you give your reasons and they are your opinion and perfectly fine; even valid. I will say I do not agree. I know I have been on this very board clamoring about Lethality...but between all the dispels, cloaks, etc. that I have seen, I couldn't go back.

 

Now before we get our panties in a bunch, I will list for you a few reasons why I prefer Marksmanship over Lethality:

 

1) Energy Energy Energy

2) Much better burst

3) Diversion and Entrench CD reduction as well as 2 second Orbital Strike cast.

 

Personally, I don't feel there is even a total damage loss as Marksmanship. I generally average 400k+ damage in a Voidstar. Hit 250k+ in a Civil War and Hutball is 350k+ unless it ends early.

 

I believe the main novelties are not having to use Cover and Cull being pretty sweet (and sweet may be an understatement). I have no problem with folks even saying it's better than Marks...I would definitely challenge folks to give it another try with the gear. For whoever said it doesn't scale with gear...I'm unsure of that. I would say I hit like a Mack truck.

 

Yes, I'm playing at level 50 and yes, I'm a War Hero Sniper.

[Nezlezar]

This thread is really just to generate debate...and while you give your reasons and they are your opinion and perfectly fine; even valid. I will say I do not agree. I know I have been on this very board clamoring about Lethality...but between all the dispels, cloaks, etc. that I have seen, I couldn't go back.

 

Now before we get our panties in a bunch, I will list for you a few reasons why I prefer Marksmanship over Lethality:

 

1) Energy Energy Energy

2) Much better burst

3) Diversion and Entrench CD reduction as well as 2 second Orbital Strike cast.

 

Personally, I don't feel there is even a total damage loss as Marksmanship. I generally average 400k+ damage in a Voidstar. Hit 250k+ in a Civil War and Hutball is 350k+ unless it ends early.

 

I believe the main novelties are not having to use Cover and Cull being pretty sweet (and sweet may be an understatement). I have no problem with folks even saying it's better than Marks...I would definitely challenge folks to give it another try with the gear. For whoever said it doesn't scale with gear...I'm unsure of that. I would say I hit like a Mack truck.

 

Yes, I'm playing at level 50 and yes, I'm a War Hero Sniper.

 

To each their own absolutely. I mainly want to illustrate to others that lethality is worth a try once you've geared up some...and not so much as to 'prove' one is better than the other. Having spent soooo much time as MM, I know exactly what you mean by energy/burst/entrench/OS etc.

 

I can't count how many times I'm in a perfect spot and entrench myself only to be LOS by everyone. Stuff like that happens far more than some healer cleansing my dots. Perhaps each server is different. Some people have cleansers and just can't do anything with Lethality. Others may have LOS players and marks just can't compete there.

[Radared]

To each their own absolutely. I mainly want to illustrate to others that lethality is worth a try once you've geared up some...and not so much as to 'prove' one is better than the other. Having spent soooo much time as MM, I know exactly what you mean by energy/burst/entrench/OS etc.

 

I can't count how many times I'm in a perfect spot and entrench myself only to be LOS by everyone. Stuff like that happens far more than some healer cleansing my dots. Perhaps each server is different. Some people have cleansers and just can't do anything with Lethality. Others may have LOS players and marks just can't compete there.

 

 

It's true for sure...if they fixed Lethality's Energy and did something about DoT Cleansing, I'd be back. I would give up the burst Marks has to offer for having Cull with the DoT's. I like Lethality a lot, I absolutely hate a 3 second Orbital Strike too.

[Somokon]

I've played both specs, and they both have their own strengths and weaknesses that you guys have mostly touched on. However I found it opposite from what the OP described. I found lethality great without a lot of gear. Now I have 10% expertise + rakata and I am doing great as marksman. My thoughts:

 

Marksman pros:

+ Better target switching. Lethality depends on corrosive grenade being off cooldown to do damage to a new target, and even then you need to use at least 2 GCDs before you cull. You can use SoS/ambush/explosive probe as filler, but a marksman does these skills much much better.

+ Your CC will not be broken by dots. This is a big one. Our defensive cooldowns are worthless for the most part, so surviving as a sniper comes from mastering all the CC we have available. Having leg shot/cover pulse root/flashbang broken by the poison ticks on lethality really cuts your survivability and escape options.

+ Your damage cannot be cleansed.

+ Diversion. Learn to use and love it. Most underrated skill ever.

 

Lethality pros:

+ No need to pick your targets carefully. Marksmans need to avoid targetting heavy armour to maximize their usefulness. With lethality a lot of your damage is internal, so you can damage heavy armor almost as easily as light armor.

+ Better mobility and easier positioning. A lot of your rotation can be used on the move as lethality.

+ You WILL put up higher damage numbers at the end of a warzone.

 

I encourage anyone serious about their sniper to try out both specs and stick with them for awhile. When I recently switched to marksman I was initially disappointed, and it took a little while for me to adapt to the playstyle and realize its potential.

[Dasamukha]

I flip flop back and forth between marks and lethality. When I raid, I like Marks over Lethality. The energy usage of lethality is more than I want to handle in a raid. Marks is a little easier to manage. Either spec can pull aggro if I am too aggressive, so I am not sure which does the most damage.

 

In pvp, I agree that Lethality or the Leth/Eng hybrid is probably a "better" overall spec . The mobility is a huge advantage, and its ability to get on top of an opponent and keep them in a kite is pretty powerful. What this assumes however is a bunch of 1 v1 battles with various opponents.

 

Marks has its perks as well. The set-up and execute time of instant snipe to follow thru is pretty powerful. No it does not kill a full health player, but it picks off the weak and wounded in a much more efficient manner. The added burstiness and range is fun. Marks forces you to choose your target and be disciplined about who you shoot.

 

Primarily its not the overall strengths versus weakness of each spec, that hold much sway. I think people are dissatisfied with the role. With a Lethality Spec you can be more of hunter looking for favorable 1 v 1 match ups. (Assuming you have both the gear and the skill) You can support your team but you can also go rogue, pick on someone else, kite them and kill them. You trade the ability to have an instant affect on another 1 v 1 match up or the burst on a ball carrier ect, to be able to kite run dot and extend.

 

Marks does not favor the 1 v 1 match ups. You can win, but its not where the spec shines. What it does well is roll up and another 1 v 1 battle and blast the snot of that opponent. It picks off the door explosive setter. It harasses the healer, keeps him occupied so he can't heal his team. It catches and dispatches the runner. You prey on the weak and the wounded.

 

Finally Marks works best when it is coupled with another player. If its a tank class, the shared damage creates god mode, a healer the same, assuming he can keep himself alive works very well. An orbital strike on top of you and the other player, wrecks melee even if they are well supported.

 

I think its the role of a support style dps class that bothers most people. Its not that one spec is so vastly superior over the other.

 

Again its a to each his own.

[xdvesper]

Both Marks and Lethality do an absolute crap-tonne of damage, whether or not you went full Marks / Full Lethality, or hybrid Marks/Eng or hybrid Lethality/Eng.

 

I think anyone who has BM gear and played Sniper extensively can tell you both specs are good, it just depends on what playstyle you prefer.

 

For me the biggest difference would be fighting good Scoundrels and Shadows: can't use Cull against them because they instant cleanse C-Grenade, and SoS alone isn't good enough damage to win the 1v1.... while on the other hand Marks can struggle against heavy armor.

 

Yes you can viably use SoS + Explosive Probe for good single target damage if you're afraid of breaking CC, but after that you've got nothing if the target isn't dead yet, while Marks still has Snipe+Followthrough+Ambush.

[Balduvar]

Oh, I see now. MM simply does not scale as well as lethality with gear progression.

 

The last 5 times we had one of these stupid posts in here lethality was better than MM because "MM is more gear dependent". More gear dependent typically means that it scales better with gear. Make up your minds.

 

You want to know the real reason people think lethality is better than MM? It's because they like it better. As in, it's a matter of opinion.

 

From my observation and experience, MM is pretty competitive.

From my observation and experience, lethality is pretty competitive.

 

In my opinion, MM is more fun. Therefore, I spend most of my time playing as MM.

[vimm]

It's the other way around, lol - Marksman is more gear dependent than Lethality; you eere simply blind before.

[Ebon-Sith]

My question is, if you are going to use lethality, wouldn't

It be better to be an operative? Same tree but with

Stealth and some healing?

[KennehBE]

I've played both specs, and they both have their own strengths and weaknesses that you guys have mostly touched on. However I found it opposite from what the OP described. I found lethality great without a lot of gear. Now I have 10% expertise + rakata and I am doing great as marksman. My thoughts:

 

Marksman pros:

+ Better target switching. Lethality depends on corrosive grenade being off cooldown to do damage to a new target, and even then you need to use at least 2 GCDs before you cull. You can use SoS/ambush/explosive probe as filler, but a marksman does these skills much much better.

+ Your CC will not be broken by dots. This is a big one. Our defensive cooldowns are worthless for the most part, so surviving as a sniper comes from mastering all the CC we have available. Having leg shot/cover pulse root/flashbang broken by the poison ticks on lethality really cuts your survivability and escape options.

+ Your damage cannot be cleansed.

+ Diversion. Learn to use and love it. Most underrated skill ever.

 

Lethality pros:

+ No need to pick your targets carefully. Marksmans need to avoid targetting heavy armour to maximize their usefulness. With lethality a lot of your damage is internal, so you can damage heavy armor almost as easily as light armor.

+ Better mobility and easier positioning. A lot of your rotation can be used on the move as lethality.

+ You WILL put up higher damage numbers at the end of a warzone.

 

I encourage anyone serious about their sniper to try out both specs and stick with them for awhile. When I recently switched to marksman I was initially disappointed, and it took a little while for me to adapt to the playstyle and realize its potential.

 

 

just a small question, what's so great about diversion?

the only thing it's useful for as far as i know is for keeping other snipers/gunslingers from using cover

it also reduces accuracy for 45% for a few secs, but most classes aren't affected by this because they use force/tech/ etc damage

[TehChozenOne]

It's the other way around, lol - Marksman is more gear dependent than Lethality; you eere simply blind before.

Numbers prove otherwise. Leth actually Scales MUCH better with gear.. infact... Lethality is very UP unless you have atleast 30% crit [due to energy issues], which you need for your passive 2energy regen on Poison crits.

[psi_overtake]

Numbers prove otherwise. Leth actually Scales MUCH better with gear.. infact... Lethality is very UP unless you have atleast 30% crit [due to energy issues], which you need for your passive 2energy regen on Poison crits.

 

I was thinking this at first. I think it can go either way:

 

Lower gear = marks worse due to white number damage (leth better)

Higher gear = leth critting more often for better energy regen (leth better)

 

 

But it could easily go the opposite:

 

Lower gear = leth worse due to low energy regen from critting less (marks better)

Higher gear = marks hitting more often due to accuracy increase and harder due to expertise (marks better)

 

 

I'm going to switch from marks/eng to 16/3/22 tonight and give it a try. I was full marks at new 50 and noticed how I did terribly in PvP (although I believe everyone does at new 50), and felt like trying something new. I did leth before but couldn't get the feel for it. Might take a few days to get used to it =)

Edited March 16, 2012 by psi_overtake

[Veala]

just a small question, what's so great about diversion?

the only thing it's useful for as far as i know is for keeping other snipers/gunslingers from using cover

it also reduces accuracy for 45% for a few secs, but most classes aren't affected by this because they use force/tech/ etc damage

 

It gives -everything- a 45% chance to miss, including things like force attacks and dot ticks.

[KennehBE]

i've read several times that it's a 45% accurucy debuff only for weapon attacks

anyone thouroughly tested this in pvp?

Edited March 16, 2012 by KennehBE

[DestyOwn]

Yep MM is lacking .... Hybrids are just better right now..

[Mythicrose]

i've read several times that it's a 45% accurucy debuff only for weapon attacks

anyone thouroughly tested this in pvp?

 

It affects everything. Definately useful against anyone, not just other snipers/gunslingers in cover.

[Noctournys]

Alert healers.

 

/endthread.