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What a mess...


Yogol

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It seems to me that Bioware is making a big, big mess out of their communication.

 

If there are 10 posts of DEVs that explain what they did NOT say in previous posts, you know something goes wrong.

 

I understand that Bioware does not have experience in MMOs. And there is a learning curve for communicating to 1,000,000 people at once: unless you know how to write such posts, there will always be some people that misunderstands them.

 

But now that the game is live for 3 months, they still make the exact same mistakes then at the start.

 

When someone posts ''e.g. a skill that had 3 points now has 2 points'', there will ofcourse be people speculate what skills get changed. Then answering to those speculations ''How you can turn this into something that references Marauders, Sentinels, focus and alpha strikes or DOTs is completely beyond me.'' is NOT a good way to talk to your customers!

 

And they do not seem to have any measures in place to prevent these mistakes: DEVs seem to post odd stuff... When a DEV writes that ''discussion is moot'' until something is on the test server, there should be someone that proof-reads that post and tells him how arrogant that type of language is.

 

And no, this is NOT a fictive example, someone actually wrote that discussing a patch is moot until it is finished. Seriously!

 

If you have a recurring problem with communication, you should take measures to prevent them from happening again. Not pretend that the problem doesn't exist.

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Interjection and exhageration by the community is NOT a failure of communication on the Devs side.

 

You know, when I was younger and new to MMOs I would get all upset thinking they changed the mechanic I loved. Being upset right away garaunteed that I would find legitamate reasons to be upset about when I have made up my own mind just based on what I read or heard. I eventually learned to just consider if I am having fun at the moment and then can I have fun after. Which if you have it set in your mind that you wont have fun, then you wont, and I would stop paying my $15 a month; but if you really WANT to have fun, I usually find new ways to do so without much trouble.

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you must be new to MMOs, this is what always happens regardless of how the dev communicates. People always twist whatever they say so they can play semantics games and "win" the inaginary debate.

 

the internet is srs buisness :p

 

apart from the fact that the lead combat designer was being directly sarcastic and trolled a paying customer, which IS a serious matter, cause you know it is his job to communicate and be civil.

 

So, apart from the above, yeah people will always twist the words of others, esp of prominent figures (like a developer in a game forum, or a journalist twisting the words of a famous person and so on). Being in the internet just makes it much more easy.

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you must be new to MMOs, this is what always happens regardless of how the dev communicates. People always twist whatever they say so they can play semantics games and "win" the inaginary debate.

 

 

QFT people read into everything and more times than not are completely incorrect but argue and fight over what was never said or intended based on just what they think someone said it's silly....

 

Been in the MMO game for over 10 years and it happens in every single one of them that's for damn sure rumors run out of control with no real basis...

Edited by LordbishopX
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I appreciate that Georg is still Georg when posting. The alternative is no postings at all, likely.

 

I don't appreciate his tone or flippant attitude.

 

He's had numerous chances to address class concerns. A simple "We are aware and changes are coming in 1.2" or "We haven't forgotten you" or even "We can hardly wait to get feedback about the Operative/Scoundrel and Commando/Merc changes on the PTS. Make sure everyone logs into the PTS, tests and please give us some feedback. " would go a long way.

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I don't appreciate his tone or flippant attitude.

 

He's had numerous chances to address class concerns. A simple "We are aware and changes are coming in 1.2" or "We haven't forgotten you" or even "We can hardly wait to get feedback about the Operative/Scoundrel and Commando/Merc changes on the PTS. Make sure everyone logs into the PTS, tests and please give us some feedback. " would go a long way.

 

He covers all of that, look it up in the dev tracker.

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I appreciate that Georg is still Georg when posting. The alternative is no postings at all, likely.

 

Well, I didn't call any names (this post was not aimed at a single DEV in particular, but to the communication in general), but he does stand out, yes.

 

Making no posts is better than making bad posts. But good posts are the better than no posts : if he would let someone proof-read his posts, that would certainly help.

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Well, I didn't call any names (this post was not aimed at a single DEV in particular, but to the communication in general), but he does stand out, yes.

 

Making no posts is better than making bad posts. But good posts are the better than no posts : if he would let someone proof-read his posts, that would certainly help.

 

None of his posts have offended me. I'd suggest getting a thicker skin if you seem to think his posts are 'bad'.

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Well, I didn't call any names (this post was not aimed at a single DEV in particular, but to the communication in general), but he does stand out, yes.

 

Making no posts is better than making bad posts. But good posts are the better than no posts : if he would let someone proof-read his posts, that would certainly help.

 

 

He can't win someone is going to be butt hurt no matter what he does or says period.

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I don't appreciate his tone or flippant attitude.

 

He's had numerous chances to address class concerns. A simple "We are aware and changes are coming in 1.2" or "We haven't forgotten you" or even "We can hardly wait to get feedback about the Operative/Scoundrel and Commando/Merc changes on the PTS. Make sure everyone logs into the PTS, tests and please give us some feedback. " would go a long way.

 

You should meet the guy that handled PVP in LOTRO back in '07.

 

I appreciate Goerg's influence coming out in his communication with people, and he's not openly inflammatory. You can't imagine what he, having volunteered himself to deal with the dregs of internet MMO playing society, has to go through to make his communications with us possible.

 

I'm thankful that he chooses to communicate with us at all, and I appreciate the blunt honesty in his postings. Granted, I'm the kind of person that appreciates bluntness and sarcasm anyways, but usage of them doesn't necessarily make someone anti-diplomacy.

 

If you can't see the humor of his postings, and choose instead to disregard the merit in him posting at all in favor of sifting through his posts to find something to be offended and outraged at, perhaps the forum isn't the place for you.

 

 

I don't appreciate his tone or flippant attitude.

 

He's had numerous chances to address class concerns. A simple "We are aware and changes are coming in 1.2" or "We haven't forgotten you" or even "We can hardly wait to get feedback about the Operative/Scoundrel and Commando/Merc changes on the PTS. Make sure everyone logs into the PTS, tests and please give us some feedback. " would go a long way.

 

He doesn't need to say these things. This is the province of a community representative and not a developer. He doesn't have to pat us on the heads and reassure us. It's blatantly obvious that everything you said is true, thus it doesn't need to be said. You're like the lonely wife of a rancher that knows her man loves her after 30 years of marriage but still needs him to say it.

Edited by Onager
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This is what happens when you communicate with customers and you have a whole lot of customers. It's the same in every business.

 

What isn't always the same is the degree of trust the business person has with his/her customers. If the business person has a developed track record that the customers are familiar with, it eases the communications greatly. Part of the problem here is that BW doesn't have that track record in MMOs and specifically hasn't done a great job on the class balance ADJUSTMENT side. Overall I think ToR's class balance is better than average. But what adjustments they have made have been dubious. They had plenty of feedback from beta about which classes were OP and they didn't do anything with it.

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Part of the problem here is that BW doesn't have that track record in MMOs and specifically hasn't done a great job on the class balance ADJUSTMENT side.

 

Yes... that and the fact that they nerfed stuff so fast after launch didn't do them no good... first slicing got nerfed, then biochem got nerfed... after that, obviously people didn't trust them no more... Which is why they need to get their act together and fast...

 

And to the other poster... sarcasm in customer-relations = bad, bad idea...

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Stupid people that make stupid assumptions should be treated like they are stupid.

 

what is the problem?

 

if the stupid people are giving you their money then no, they should at least be polite. they are not forum trolls, they are employees that are getting paid to talk to you.

 

this is the problem.

 

he also revealed himself as being a total immature idiot because out of 10threads that the 9 of them had clear opinions, math, clear +/- of the classes, clear analysis and etc.. he just ignored them (probably cause he didn't had anythng useful to say) and only replied to the 1 post he could troll just to brag about it.

 

i'm not talking about his job as a developer, or his coding skills or whatever. i am talking about his skills at being a human being, and an employee of a company that is asked questions. he fails hard there and if he has nothing useful to say he should just shut up.

 

and yes, if he was one of my emplyees there would have been consequences if he ever talked like that to a customer, despite of if the customer was right or wrong.

Edited by Shroudveil
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I understand that Bioware does not have experience in MMOs. And there is a learning curve for communicating to 1,000,000 people at once: unless you know how to write such posts, there will always be some people that misunderstands them.

How is genre relevant? They're communicating with about the same number of people they do on their single player games.

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How is genre relevant? They're communicating with about the same number of people they do on their single player games.

 

Well the big difference is because MMOs are ever changing, some of the players feel that their individual opinions (no matter how crazy and stupid they are) should matter and be addressed personally. It's part of the entitlement that comes with paying a subscription fee, I guess.

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Well the big difference is because MMOs are ever changing, some of the players feel that their individual opinions (no matter how crazy and stupid they are) should matter and be addressed personally. It's part of the entitlement that comes with paying a subscription fee, I guess.

One is no more entitled after paying a subscription for 3 months than they are after paying a one time fee, playing for a month and then paying another one time fee for the sequel when they get bored. It's pretty much the same thing.

 

Edit: Not to mention that it's physically impossible for the devs to implement individual requests. Those frequently conflict. If I had it my way it would be a sandbox game with no NPC's, territory control and full loot world PvP everywhere. Like Planetside with light sabers and more RPG elements. Obviously they can't implement that while also implementing people's requests for more dungeons. The best they can do is implement what the majority wants. Life is hard, get a helmet.

Edited by Game-Hermit
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you must be new to MMOs, this is what always happens regardless of how the dev communicates. People always twist whatever they say so they can play semantics games and "win" the inaginary debate.

 

Yup. /5char

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But the thing is discussion IS moot until whatever the patch does is fully known. Speculating about possible changes that are not even on the PTS yet doesn't help anyone.

 

This is true, however, past experiences show that once Bioware puts something on the PTS they are not looking for feedback on the changes made, just if the changes are working.

 

The design changes have probably already been finalized and nothing the players say now will change that.

 

Unfortunately George relies too much on metrics and not how the game actually plays out.

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Yeah, no matter what he said or how he said it, somebody would say it's wrong. If he was totally polite and civil, at least one person would say he is just being too "corporate" or something to that effect.

 

You can't please everybody, and trying would just drive one insane. So let Mr. Zoeller be Mr. Zoeller, if it's a problem, well, everybody answers to somebody.

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if the stupid people are giving you their money then no, they should at least be polite. they are not forum trolls, they are employees that are getting paid to talk to you.

 

this is the problem.

 

he also revealed himself as being a total immature idiot because out of 10threads that the 9 of them had clear opinions, math, clear +/- of the classes, clear analysis and etc.. he just ignored them (probably cause he didn't had anythng useful to say) and only replied to the 1 post he could troll just to brag about it.

 

i'm not talking about his job as a developer, or his coding skills or whatever. i am talking about his skills at being a human being, and an employee of a company that is asked questions. he fails hard there and if he has nothing useful to say he should just shut up.

 

and yes, if he was one of my emplyees there would have been consequences if he ever talked like that to a customer, despite of if the customer was right or wrong.

 

Yeah, you've touched on an issue that has been going on for some time.

 

When presented with a range of criticisms ranging from constructive concern to irrational tantrum, they seem to address the latter and shut it down while ignoring the opportunity to have a meaningful dialogue with the former.

 

Sometimes they even distort a legitimate question into its more extreme form, like when DE answered a question about taking space flight off of the rails and went off on tirade about "dicking around in space." Having 3-axis control to fly around a simulated environment doesn't mean you want to go land on a remote asteroid and stare out the window.

 

So it seems like sometimes they, like someone else in this thread was saying of the forum posters, like to pick and choose only the absurd arguments that are easy to refute so they can 'win' the discussion.

Edited by Syylara
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