PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Ulmius]

No. It comes down to, "If I'm in a group with other people, and we all have a goal to accomplish together, in order for the group to accomplish its goals we have to improve as a group."

 

Your solo play is unaffected. Your play in a group with people who also don't care about improvement is also unaffected. The only thing affected is your play in a group with people who care about improvement. And frankly, it SHOULD be. If the group is formed around that playstyle, forcing them to accept your differing playstyle is unfair to the other 7 people in that group.

 

This is an important part of the argument that the anti-meter group either doesn't understand or refuse to accept. It's not a solo game, it's a group game. The second you join a pug or a group that isn't solely made up of your friends, then what you do and how you perform becomes the group's business. If you want to run an op or fp to talk and joke around without a care if you win or not, make sure you make that group with your friends. The second you join a group that isn't all your friends, the goal is to complete the objective. How you play and the amount of dps matters because the goal of the group is to win. If you play poorly and cannot do a decent amount of dps to contribute to that goal, the group has every right to replace you with someone that can help with the goal, which is to win.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Ulmius

[JediElf]

But frankly, the people of this ideology will play their way, and you'll play your way and the two of you won't interact very much. However, without a culture of metric-centric gaming and min/maxing, this game will lose it's lasting power and ultimately go the way of many other failed MMOs

 

A game can survive without heavy metrics.

 

SWTOR has what many other MMOs don't have, and that's a strong story and focus on lore and cinematic scenes.

 

I think some of us are just sick of metrics players taking over every aspect of MMOs these days, it's disheartening to see creativity and tam work, replaced by cold statics and precision based rotations, with no pause for human error.

 

It has a chilling effect on the whole game.

[GalacticKegger]

Denying? How do you get someone wanting their preference in a game as them wanting to "deny" anyone anything?

Isn't it a denial thing anyway?

[Vydor_HC]

and if by close-minded, you mean i refuse to acknowledge that people will abuse the information provided by dps meters..well yes, that may happen, unfortunately. Griefing has existed as long as gaming has (Looking at you, battle-toads) But if its not the meters, it will be something else, BECAUSE THATS WHAT JERKS DO!

 

And when a jerk starts saying your dps blows, you can throw the information from your combat log back in his face to prove him wrong.

 

and if by close-minded, you mean i refuse to acknowledge, that only through the addition of combat metrics, can a culture of metric-centric gaming and mid/maxing emerge. That is also correct.

 

But frankly, the people of this ideology will play their way, and you'll play your way and the two of you won't interact very much. However, without a culture of metric-centric gaming and min/maxing, this game will lose it's lasting power and ultimately go the way of many other failed MMOs

 

No, by closed minded I am saying not having the ability to see the validity of the opposing view. You're statement that people are tying to deny you things is just more proof that you only think of yourself in the argument, which is another clue to being closed minded.

 

In the end though you were half right with your original post. The min/maxers will be effected if they do not get their way. In that they do not have a complete picture of everyone's output in an encounter.

 

The other side if they do not get their way will be subject to what can be an emotional and visceral impact on their game if/when the tool is abused.

 

I doubt many min/maxers will quit if the lack of numbers effects them, and I doubt very seriously that any will log off the game in tears. The other side though, I know people will quit and I have seen very adverse effects to players personally and emotionally do to abuse of the tools.

 

Boths sides have made their pitch long ago on this, quite thoroughly. I have a hard time putting any relevance in arguments that do not recognize both sides.

[Vydor_HC]

Isn't it a denial thing anyway?

 

I don't follow.

[Stupiddrummer]

A game can survive without heavy metrics.

 

SWTOR has what many other MMOs don't have, and that's a strong story and focus on lore and cinematic scenes.

 

I think some of us are just sick of metrics players taking over every aspect of MMOs these days, it's disheartening to see creativity and tam work, replaced by cold statics and precision based rotations, with no pause for human error.

 

It has a chilling effect on the whole game.

 

you know what else has a chilling effect on the game? When the players hit max lvl and stop playing.

 

Edit; and when i say game, i mean MMO.

[GalacticKegger]

I don't follow.

Isn't it a denial thing that keeps them posting?

[Stupiddrummer]

No, by closed minded I am saying not having the ability to see the validity of the opposing view. You're statement that people are tying to deny you things is just more proof that you only think of yourself in the argument, which is another clue to being closed minded.

 

In the end though you were half right with your original post. The min/maxers will be effected if they do not get their way. In that they do not have a complete picture of everyone's output in an encounter.

 

The other side if they do not get their way will be subject to what can be an emotional and visceral impact on their game if/when the tool is abused.

 

I doubt many min/maxers will quit if the lack of numbers effects them, and I doubt very seriously that any will log off the game in tears. The other side though, I know people will quit and I have seen very adverse effects to players personally and emotionally do to abuse of the tools.

 

Boths sides have made their pitch long ago on this, quite thoroughly. I have a hard time putting any relevance in arguments that do not recognize both sides.

 

That's because there is no validity in anectodal evidence and forum hearsay. Validity requires actual evidence to support a claim.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[Vydor_HC]

Isn't it a denial thing that keeps them posting?

 

I don't know if anyone is really wanting to deny people anything. I think it's more that people want the game to be better and they have a vision of what that should be. The fallout being, it effects the game play of others.

[JediElf]

That's because there is no validity in anectodal evidence and forum hearsay. Validity requires actual evidence to support a claim.

 

Evidence?

 

Look not further...it's 3 words long...

 

World Of Warcraft

[Stupiddrummer]

I don't know if anyone is really wanting to deny people anything. I think it's more that people want the game to be better and they have a vision of what that should be. The fallout being, it effects the game play of others.

 

i would call wanting to deny people combat metrics "denying" something.

[JustTed]

So, you guys are still talking about that thing we're getting? Amazing.

[Vydor_HC]

That's because there is no validity in anectodal evidence and forum hearsay. Validity requires actual evidence to support a claim.

 

-shrugs-

 

If it was just one or two people making an anecdotal claim, you would have a point. However, the behavior in this very thread and others like it by the people that want to kick "baddies" and judge their performances is really all the proof one needs to see that nothing is being made up.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Vydor_HC

[Stupiddrummer]

Evidence?

 

Look not further...it's 3 words long...

 

World Of Warcraft

 

WoW is still the best MMO on the market (in that it is the one all the others are compared to).

 

I wouldn't say metrics hurt that game.

 

 

Also. Combat logs and metrics have been in WoW since vanilla. When do people that complaining about the game? When cross server LFD was introduced? When gearscore was introduced?

 

combat logs never did anything to nobody.

[Vydor_HC]

i would call wanting to deny people combat metrics "denying" something.

 

People are here are not posting they want to deny others anything. People are posting that they want to keep certain aspects from the game for the betterment of the game. There is no malice in that desire.

 

edit: grammar.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Vydor_HC

[Stupiddrummer]

-shrugs-

 

If it was just one or two people making an anecdotal claim, you would have a point. However, the behavior in this very thread and others like it by the people that want to kick "baddies" and judge their performances is really all the proof one needs to see they nothing is being made up.

 

So every poster in this thread that had a bad experience compared to the 10 million subscribers WoW still has..hmmmmmmmmm.

[Vydor_HC]

So every poster in this thread that had a bad experience compared to the 10 million subscribers WoW still has..hmmmmmmmmm.

 

I don't know anything about WoW, but I'd say there are a lot of players in this game that came from WoW and definitely had bad experiences in this area in that game.

[Drewser]

That's because there is no validity in anectodal evidence and forum hearsay. Validity requires actual evidence to support a claim.

 

Huh? There is evidence in this thread supporting the claim by people that back in game combat logs.

[Drewser]

WoW is still the best MMO on the market (in that it is the one all the others are compared to).

 

I wouldn't say metrics hurt that game.

 

 

Also. Combat logs and metrics have been in WoW since vanilla. When do people that complaining about the game? When cross server LFD was introduced? When gearscore was introduced?

 

combat logs never did anything to nobody.

 

That really depends on how you define 'best'.

 

It boils down to the old McDonald's vs other restaurants argument. If for you, best = have the most customers, yes, WoW it is the best.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Drewser

[lollermittens]

He should also add this to the OP as a developer response:

 

Ten Ton Hammer: Yeah, that was one of my main concerns. I love playing alts, but I don’t want to do the world quests over and over again. Ok, asking one last question and changing the topic rapidly to parsable out-of-game logs. How exactly does that work? From my understanding, only you are able to view your logs?

 

James Ohlen: Yes. We’re going to be able to get logs from your combat and you’ll be able to take that information and look at how your group did in a given combat. Right now, there are two schools of thought on it. One group of players don’t want the combat log because it can be exclusionary and it makes it that there’s all this pressure to perform a certain way. There are groups who think that’s the way it’s supposed to be, who want to be the super-elite group. So we made it that if you want to be the super-elite group, it takes a little bit more work. It’s not so easy to be exclusionary. You have to take that extra step to basically parse it out and look at it. You can get the information you need, but it’s something that we’re not making easy to use. It’s kind of a compromise. There’ll be guilds that’ll make use of it and I’m sure that there’ll be guilds that don’t.

 

Ten Ton Hammer: So you are able to see other people’s combat actions if you go out of game and parse the logs?

 

James Ohlen: Yes.

 

I can't believe James Ohlen is the main decision maker behind the combat log issue when he's making statements like that. He's basically telling us that we, as paying customers, will have to do extra work which takes time, money, and resources (do you really think a website which will host and analyze your combat log parses is going to be built overnight?) to gauge/analyze metrics which should be available to us in the first place. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a good chunk of that $14.99 I fork over to you guys every month supposed to be invested in resources to create such a system for us? Adding insult to injury, how hypocritical can you get when you're refusing to give us the tools that you are dependent upon on daily basis to keep this game running? I just can't wait for the moment when the community is done hashtagging all of the .tor files in the asset folder so we can discover every variable name and other functionalities so we won't have to depend on your lousy releases to get things done ourselves. The game has been out for barely three months and we already have figured out every damage/weight modifier on almost every ability. We just want data to verify our hypotheses.

 

I also don't like to be designated or thrown into the category of a "super-elite" group because of our demand of a convenient system, that is a native within the game (not third-party), to scientifically gauge our performance? Is he insane? Or is he simply catering to the casuals who are scared to see their own performance? It's a bit of both IMO.

 

This fear-mongering that an all-encompassing combat log will ruin the game and other baseless idiocy will be the downfall of this game: no real combat logs; no macros; no DPS-meters. You simply can't build an MMO and not implement such staple features.

[ScarletBlaze]

Stupiddrummer;3446083]WoW is still the best MMO on the market (in that it is the one all the others are compared to).

 

 

 

One comment or question if Wow is the best and you enjoy that game then why are you playing SWTOR?

 

Just curious.

[JediElf]

He should also add this to the OP as a developer response:

 

Ten Ton Hammer: Yeah, that was one of my main concerns. I love playing alts, but I don’t want to do the world quests over and over again. Ok, asking one last question and changing the topic rapidly to parsable out-of-game logs. How exactly does that work? From my understanding, only you are able to view your logs?

 

James Ohlen: Yes. We’re going to be able to get logs from your combat and you’ll be able to take that information and look at how your group did in a given combat. Right now, there are two schools of thought on it. One group of players don’t want the combat log because it can be exclusionary and it makes it that there’s all this pressure to perform a certain way. There are groups who think that’s the way it’s supposed to be, who want to be the super-elite group. So we made it that if you want to be the super-elite group, it takes a little bit more work. It’s not so easy to be exclusionary. You have to take that extra step to basically parse it out and look at it. You can get the information you need, but it’s something that we’re not making easy to use. It’s kind of a compromise. There’ll be guilds that’ll make use of it and I’m sure that there’ll be guilds that don’t.

 

Ten Ton Hammer: So you are able to see other people’s combat actions if you go out of game and parse the logs?

 

James Ohlen: Yes.

 

Finally!

 

A dev that actually plays MMOs, and knows what goes on in the communities that surround them.

 

This is truly, a revolutionary statement.

[Ulmius]

One comment or question if Wow is the best and you enjoy that game then why are you playing SWTOR?

 

Just curious.

 

Because currently, my two buddies prefer playing this game because we've basically completed wow in terms of raid content. With that said, their preference is slowly waning and I suspect within a month or two we will be back to wow.

[Stupiddrummer]

That really depends on how you define 'best'.

 

It boils down to the old McDonald's vs other restaurants argument. If for you, best = have the most customers, yes, WoW it is the best.

 

read slightly further past the part you underlined and you'll see how i defined "best."

[Nagadeath]

So every poster in this thread that had a bad experience compared to the 10 million subscribers WoW still has..hmmmmmmmmm.

 

i'm sorry but this one is just bugging me so i have to jump on it......

 

after all these post saying you only accept infallible evidence you jump in with a "WoW has 10 million players therefor 10 million people love combat logs" post. sorry that one just bugged the hell out of me and had to point it out.