PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Nagadeath]

It's amazing that you can be so certain without having seen the data.

 

besides why would he go with lando.... his dps sucked until han loaned him the falcon.

[Stupiddrummer]

There are two scenarios:

 

1) Combat metrics aren't added, the game stays the same. People that don't care for metrics are happy. People that do care about metrics are not. Who's losing in this? The people that want combat metrics.

 

 

2) Combat metrics are added. The people that requested them get to use them. They are happy. The people that don't care about metrics do not use them, and continue playing as they were.

 

In scenario two, the outcome for the person against combat logs remains the same as the person in scenario one. Nothing changes for them.

[Retzilla]

It's amazing that you can be so certain without having seen the data. Must have been on the blue-ray.

 

i find that statement highly ironic coming from the likes of you

 

edit* i like how you spelled blu-ray

Edited March 15, 2012 by Retzilla

[Stupiddrummer]

It's amazing that you can be so certain without having seen the data. Must have been on the blue-ray.

 

i think what you're looking for is:

 

Han and Luke are shooting down Tie Fighters from the Falcon.

 

Luke begins consistently hitting more Tie Fighters than Han.

 

Han exclaims, "Don't get cocky!!" Followed by posting the damage meters, showing that even though Luke is doing more damage now, Han is still ahead on dps and has been contributing more the whole time.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[Nagadeath]

i think what you're looking for is:

 

Han and Luke are shooting down Tie Fighters from the Falcon.

 

Luke begins consistently hitting more Tie Fighters than Han.

 

Han exclaims "Don't get cocky!!" Followed by posting the damage meters, showing that even though Luke is doing more damage now, Han is still ahead on dps and has been contributing more the whole time.

 

well duh they were in a ranged space battle luke was a melee class......

[Stupiddrummer]

well duh they were in a ranged space battle luke was a melee class......

 

man, if only there was evidence to back up your unsubstantiated claim!

 

[JediElf]

There are two scenarios:

 

1) Combat metrics aren't added, the game stays the same. People that don't care for metrics are happy. People that do care about metrics are not. Who's losing in this? The people that want combat metrics.

 

 

2) Combat metrics are added. The people that requested them get to use them. They are happy. The people that don't care about metrics do not use them, and continue playing as they were.

 

In scenario two, the outcome for the person against combat logs remains the same as the person in scenario one. Nothing changes for them.

 

Actually it does change, because the whole community will change around the non-combat log players. Thing will get really mean, really fast, and PUGs will become a distant dream.

 

Eventually things will get so out of control that the Devs may have to streamline every single talent, and all classes into one 'no fail' set of stats, that way new players wont get so frustrated with 'making mistakes'. Abilities will be reduced to only those that are 'useful' or the highest damage output.

 

Then comes the LFD and LFR because new and old content will just rot away. Then comes the teir badge gear, and the teir badge grind, and then it feels less like a game....and more of a stats calculation to max level.

 

Nothing changes? No, sadly, everything changes. Because it will be all about the metrics, all the time.

[Stupiddrummer]

Actually it does change, because the whole community will change around the non-combat log players. Thing will get really mean, really fast, and PUGs will become a distant dream.

 

Eventually things will get so out of control that the Devs may have to streamline every single talent, and all classes into one 'no fail' set of stats, that way new players wont get so frustrated with 'making mistakes'. Abilities will be reduced to only those that are 'useful' or the highest damage output.

 

Then comes the LFD and LFR because new and old content will just rot away. Then comes the teir badge gear, and the teir badge grind, and then it feels less like a game....and more of a stats calculation to max level.

 

Nothing changes? No, sadly, everything changes. Because it will be all about the metrics, all the time.

 

and fire will rain from the sky!!! doom i tell you doom!!!

[DjSnazzyduds]

Combat Logs are a tool to measure e-peen. You can do without it. So you can't see how much more you've satisfied your ego, big deal. It's not super important to the game.

[Vydor_HC]

There are two scenarios:

 

1) Combat metrics aren't added, the game stays the same. People that don't care for metrics are happy. People that do care about metrics are not. Who's losing in this? The people that want combat metrics.

 

 

2) Combat metrics are added. The people that requested them get to use them. They are happy. The people that don't care about metrics do not use them, and continue playing as they were.

 

In scenario two, the outcome for the person against combat logs remains the same as the person in scenario one. Nothing changes for them.

 

#2 assumption of no ill effects is wrong.

[DarthKhaos]

So in reading these posts and the others in other MMO's I'm seeing 2 schools of thought.

 

A. I want to play my way, and don't want you given tools to dictate what way that should be.

 

B. I want to Maximize my and my groups capabilities and want the tools to allow myself to do so.

 

Now, both groups are trying to dictate what the other is allowed to do, (Wanting to prevent people from having tools that can be abused is the same as wanting others to change playstyles to match your needs, they are both limiting others gamepley). That being said, there are individuals of both school of thought who are outright stating they don't care what YOU do, they do/don't want these changes for their own gameplay.

 

What I don't understand is the need for the bickering outside of trolling. As I see it, it comes down to a few basic things.

 

1. Logs can help a player finetune themselves.

2. Logs can be used to make runs/guilds exclusive and all the "evils" those contain.

3. Logs can lead to min/maxing requirements.

4. Logs can let people see where mistakes happened.

5. Logs can show you why you/someone died

 

1.) I don't appreciate someone coming up with reasons why I would not be allowed to finetune myself. I understand that the reasons are because someone wants to protect their gameplay choice, But why should I be 100% limited by not having logs when you MIGHT be limited by having logs.

2.) Exclusivety happens. If it's not over logs, it's over "preferred specs" because of their other offerings, (instant cast cc, bloodlust, etc.) or any number of other things. Where competition exists, there exists elitists. Where elitists exist, there exists exclusivity. Trying to stop it is like prohibition. And even the US government gave up on that one. Basicly, Logs don't create exclusivety, people do. Logs are simply one concrete tool people can point to and say, "they use this!".

3.) DO you honestly think that lack of logs stops the min/maxers from finding other ways to try and min/max? Or will stop them from coming up with requirements? The "it makes it easier" argument is exactly that, an argument. Not a debate. They do it already, they will continue to do it, arguing to prevent it just leads to frustration on both parts and won't stop human nature.

4.) NO ONE likes to have it pointed out when they screw up. The min/maxers don't like it anymore then the "play it my way" crowd. But it is necessary to find out where the problem happened to prevent it from happening again. Right now we do that from visual queues. That method is flawed. The log method is better.

5.) I'd like to know why I died. The mysterious die on rez bugs, Thinking I died from swipe, but finding out it was something else allows me to adjust myself for the proper danger.

You are partly correct. There are a small % that are saying straight up "NO!" However the majority are saying "Personal Logs only." The personal logs will allow you to do all the important things you stated.

• Personal logs can help a player fine tune themselves.
  
• Personal logs can let people see where their mistakes happened.
  
• Personal logs can show you why you died.
  

So the question is why isn't that enough to allow you to theory craft, min/max & improve yourself as a player?

[Stupiddrummer]

#2 assumption of no ill effects is wrong.

 

go on...

[Vydor_HC]

go on...

 

What do I need to explain more than what others have already done?

[DarthKhaos]

Don't you remember when Han told Chewy he had to pick up his DPS or he was going to kick him for Lando?

I bet you Chewie didn't want to vote kick Han for running from the legon of storm troopers and not trying to get l33t DPS.

[Stupiddrummer]

What do I need to explain more than what others have already done?

 

because that line of reasoning is based on nothing more than fear and emotion.

[Snoodmaster]

You are partly correct. There are a small % that are saying straight up "NO!" However the majority are saying "Personal Logs only." The personal logs will allow you to do all the important things you stated.

• Personal logs can help a player fine tune themselves.
  
• Personal logs can let people see where their mistakes happened.
  
• Personal logs can show you why you died.
  

So the question is why isn't that enough to allow you to theory craft, min/max & improve yourself as a player?

 

Because personal improvement is only part of the reason for having logs. There's also group improvement, and having purely personal logs makes that aspect more difficult than it needs to be.

[Vydor_HC]

because that line of reasoning is based on nothing more than fear and emotion.

 

No, it actually influenced Biowares choice to implement the logs the way they did. The argument is not invalid at all. If you choose to ignore it, you're the one that is in the wrong, thus you're assumption for #2 was wrong, making your post conclusion invalid.

[Stupiddrummer]

No, it actually influenced Biowares choice to implement the logs the way they did. The argument is not invalid at all. If you choose to ignore it, you're the one that is in the wrong, thus you're assumption for #2 was wrong, making your post conclusion invalid.

 

The fact that it influenced Bioware's opinion is the reason I'm still posting in this thread.

 

I'm not going to play a game where design choices are dictated by ghost stories about in game metrics overturning the in-game society.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[Evironrage]

For the third time, yes please. No need to be afraid of additional information, which is all real combat logs offer.

[Vydor_HC]

The fact that it influenced Bioware's opinion is the reason I'm still posting in this thread.

 

I'm not going to play a game where design choices are dictated by ghost stories about in game metrics overturning the in-game society.

 

Well, if you intend to argue with a closed mind, that's fine. It will not help you make your case though as half of your argument will be based on an incorrect personal belief. The people that have been arguing about adverse effects to groups due to "meters" are not just making it up. And Bioware recognized it as well.

 

 

EDIT: You've made some good posts in the past, and I think you'd be better at making your case if you could just see the other sides point of view.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Vydor_HC

[JediElf]

Because personal improvement is only part of the reason for having logs. There's also group improvement, and having purely personal logs makes that aspect more difficult than it needs to be.

 

So it's ok to improve yourself, but you still want to 'improve' others as well.

 

Doesn't it all kinda boil down to "We want to tell people how to play their class/spec."

 

[Stupiddrummer]

Well, if you intend to argue with a closed mind, that's fine. It will not help you make your case though as half of your argument will be based on an incorrect personal belief. The people that have been arguing about adverse effects to groups due to "meters" are not just making it up. And Bioware recognized it as well.

 

 

EDIT: You've made some good posts in the past, and I think you'd be better at making your case if you could just see the other sides point of view.

 

I'm closed minded? What do you think trying to deny people access to already in-game information is?

 

Its like the pot calling the kettle black, only the pot cant because the kettle wont give him access to the information to actually prove he's black.

 

edit

Edit has evolved into Post!

Edited March 15, 2012 by Stupiddrummer

[Vydor_HC]

I'm closed minded? What do you think trying to deny people access to already in-game information is?

 

Its like the pot calling the kettle black, only the pot cant because the kettle wont give him access to the information to actually prove he's black.

 

Denying? How do you get someone wanting their preference in a game as them wanting to "deny" anyone anything?

[Snoodmaster]

So it's ok to improve yourself, but you still want to 'improve' others as well.

 

Doesn't it all kinda boil down to "We want to tell people how to play their class/spec."

 

 

No. It comes down to, "If I'm in a group with other people, and we all have a goal to accomplish together, in order for the group to accomplish its goals we have to improve as a group."

 

Your solo play is unaffected. Your play in a group with people who also don't care about improvement is also unaffected. The only thing affected is your play in a group with people who care about improvement. And frankly, it SHOULD be. If the group is formed around that playstyle, forcing them to accept your differing playstyle is unfair to the other 7 people in that group.

[Stupiddrummer]

Denying? How do you get someone wanting their preference in a game as them wanting to "deny" anyone anything?

 

and if by close-minded, you mean i refuse to acknowledge that people will abuse the information provided by dps meters..well yes, that may happen, unfortunately. Griefing has existed as long as gaming has (Looking at you, battle-toads) But if its not the meters, it will be something else, BECAUSE THATS WHAT JERKS DO!

 

And when a jerk starts saying your dps blows, you can throw the information from your combat log back in his face to prove him wrong.

 

and if by close-minded, you mean i refuse to acknowledge, that only through the addition of combat metrics, can a culture of metric-centric gaming and mid/maxing emerge. That is also correct.

 

But frankly, the people of this ideology will play their way, and you'll play your way and the two of you won't interact very much. However, without a culture of metric-centric gaming and min/maxing, this game will lose it's lasting power and ultimately go the way of many other failed MMOs

Edited March 15, 2012 by Stupiddrummer