PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[krinaman]

I honestly don't get what the pro-meter crowd is ranting about at this point.

 

Personal logs written to disk? Lotro had the same thing, they also had group DPS meters via an external app.

[Seregul]

I know what combat logs are, I was just asking for what he meant by "all inclusive" combat log. Thanks though.

 

In the first thread BW's mention of "personal logs" was speculated to mean they would be private, meaning they would only show what happens to you. So the all inclusive log in this context would be a log that shows the activity of everyone in the group. They are also being referred to as public logs, though I don't really understand that one. I imagine the thinking there is that since private is the opposite of public, and the private logs are clearly the good, then the bad ones must be called public logs.

[GalacticKegger]

Ok, once again I'm going to state that people do not know what a combat log is, or what a damage meter is so I'm going to post two examples of both

Why? Do you honestly believe you're up there and we're down here? Is that how "plays well with others" works?

 

Wow. Just . . . wow . . .

Edited March 15, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[crimsonsglory]

I'm going vote kick and remove each person that has a parser in my group.

 

you'll probably get vote kick first for not having a parser in group when it becomes a norm

[Snoodmaster]

I'm going vote kick and remove each person that has a parser in my group.

 

And that's your right. If you run a raid and you don't want people posting log parses, you are perfectly welcome to set those as ground rules. You have just as much right to remove people who don't play the way you would like from YOUR raid as someone else has to remove people underperforming from THEIR raid.

[DakataTan]

Parsers are a good thing, totally for them, I want to make sure everyone is pulling their weight including myself, casuals can group with casuals if they don't like it after all that group is in the majority so no problem but if we're doing hard encounters in any game you don't want to be carrying people. ACT type system from eq2 would be perfect. Seems to b a fair bit of paranoia from the anti crowd, what's to hide?

[Deathmond]

playing DPS without DPS metters in PVE a boring:(

[Starglide]

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point. I don't feel it's remotely equal and it's the entire reason many people do not support all inclusive combat logs. Story mode doesn't invalidate peoples opinions. You've been a pro-inclusive combat log supporter from the start, hence this very thread. I don't mean to offend when I say this, but people are presenting their opinions to Bioware. Whether you agree with them or not, see them as serious concerns or not, isn't relevant. You're certainly not someone in a position to tell people their opinions don't matter. They might not matter to you, but you aren't the one making the game or making the decisions. Feel free to press forward with presenting your opinions though.

 

And, as has been said, we have the head developer saying one thing and articles with interviews saying another. Yes, we'll get actual combat logs at some point instead of a file to parse. Yes we'll get damage and threat meters at some point. But if you say anything as fact other than that it's just pure guesswork based on your personal bias. We have not received a confirmation that combat logs are going to be all inclusive. We have not received a confirmation that damage meters are going to be all inclusive. And when I say all inclusive, I mean that the only thing we know for sure is that it's going to show what's done to your character and what your character does. As of this point, we know the combat log that we can parse coming in 1.2 is not going to have any other information than that. Hell, Bioware may not have made a decision on the matter. We'll just have to wait and see how things turn out.

 

You're right. Im not anyone special to say someone's opinions are wrong because they are just that... Opinions. And I maybe a pompous when I say it, but call me blunt... If someone makes ridiculous claims and their opinions are based on false premise, I am going to call it out. Especially when it effects something I am directly or will be directly utilizing.

[JediElf]

You know there is only one way to settle this right?

 

Only one way....

 

....and that's.

 

An Epic Rap Battle!

 

Someone? Begin!

Edited March 15, 2012 by JediElf

[Starglide]

I say this with sincerity Starglide, you have been one of the more vocal peer bashers throughout the theads life. Your terse and biased comments in what I quoted above are further indicative of this. So I cannot consider your statement above to be objective.

 

I do not mean any disrepsect in this, I am telling you what I have personally observed. I have come to believe that you actually are not aware of your own words towards others sometimes.

 

We can agree to disagree, but you have no right to say such things as "posts should be auto deleted and I wish I could exclude them from the poll". I get it that you don't like people to disagree with you. But that does not make you right.

 

Andray, don't scream peace maker in thread three. I didn't start off like that with you. It was your failure to understand my original argument against the nay sayer argument of fear of gauging. You continued to make snarky remarks to others referring to me and ridiculed me about not answering your questions while claiming my demographic ridicules like I was backed in some kind of corner. That made me come out of my shell and pick apart your posts. If you were offended by this, then I apologize as I do not want to get into the baby game of "you started it".

 

Also, if you re-read our conversations you will see I disagree with you on a lot less topics than you may believe.

 

P.S. I really hope you take a step back for a moment and try to realize how frustrating this thread has been for me. Whether you agree with me or not, you are clearly not an unintelligent person. You can see how many stupid posts have been here and how many times I had to repeat the same points even when they were in the OP over and over again. Sympathize with me a little bit and stop taking everything to heart. We are both passionate about our beliefs and that is nothing short of a good quality.

 

I'm only a few warnings in... I doubt I acted as bad as you think. Especially for a heavy heated topic and discussion.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Starglide

[Snoodmaster]

It's impossible to judge based on the limited amount of information provided

 

In the case of #1 if said Flashpoint requires ~600 DPS to complete and you already have a DPS party member in Raid Gear it's an asinine but but still valid (hey it's their group) request. If the FP features a lot of encounters with heavily armored opponents then the number could be way to high for Force Users, dead on for GS, and too low for Scoundrels.

 

In the case of #2 it's the same thing - if everything in the run is being one-shot easily what does it really matter? If the group is failing due to Enrage Timers it might be valid - or it could turn out that person is a Commando who picked up Group Heals when the Sage got stunned and then stepped in Fire.

 

It's very easy to misread and incorrectly interpret the data provided by Meters, especially the in-game, realtime, highly summarized versions most people live by like Recount.

 

Unless you are repeatedly wiping, most times analysis isn't needed. If you are repeatedly wiping, it's often easier for a PUG to just fall apart and for a Guild Group to either call the run or take the time to parse their Logs.

 

It looks like this response from the anti-meter crowd got buried in the past few pages of posts about polling technique, so I'll quote and respond to it.

 

First, it's not really that hard to interpret logs or meters correctly. For example, in your example, the Commando who picked up group heals will simply say "I was group healing" and then show his healing parses. Heck, he shouldn't have to say anything, because the only reason for him to be healing instead of dpsing is if he was told to, or requested permission to. If his job was to dps, it's not really acceptable to just drop that job and pick up another one without telling anyone.

 

Second, it's not asinine for someone to insist that other people pull their own weight. And yes, even if someone is pulling out crazy high dps, other people should still do a minimum. This is, I think, what bothers the pro-meter crowd so much about the attitude of those against meters. The vague implication that as long as things are going ok, groups should be forced or coerced into putting up with slackers hiding in their midst. Unless I specifically decide to carry someone, and let's make no mistake, a dps pulling less dps than required for the instance is being carried. If you are incapable of finishing the instance with a group of people in the same gear, skill and experience that you have, but are completing in a more advanced group, that's being carried, no matter how hard you push buttons. You have a point about people insisting on higher requirements (dps, gear or otherwise) than the instance requires, but that's their prerogative and it's incumbent on people who think that someone is asking too much to form their own groups, take all those people rejected and do it themselves.

 

Third, analysis is ALWAYS needed. Even if you don't wipe, unless you do everything absolutely perfect, there's always a little bit that you can learn. And if you are just barely succeeding on a boss early in the operation, you might run into problems later on, so it's a good idea to find and fix any issues that can crop up. And it is MOST important when repeatedly wiping. I always take the time to look at my logs when I'm dead and waiting for everyone else to die, or when I've released and waiting for people to run back. Knowing whether the tank died to boss damage or because the healer was cc'd determines whether I decide to stick through 30 more minutes of the raid (and convince others to stay with me) or whether I decide to get some sleep and give up. Because if the tank is dying to the boss, that's likely a gear issue, and the raid just isn't happening; but if it's the healer being cc'd, that's likely a luck/strategy issue. Either way, I need to KNOW why we aren't succeeding in order to make a good decision about the best use of my time.

[krinaman]

Knowing whether the tank died to boss damage or because the healer was cc'd determines whether I decide to stick through 30 more minutes of the raid (and convince others to stay with me) or whether I decide to get some sleep and give up.

 

I know this might come as a shock but you could just ask:

 

You - Hey tank what killed you?

 

Tank - Heals didn't keep up

 

You - What's happening heals? Too much damage to heal or did you get stunned or something?

 

Seriously folks, it's not that hard. In fact it's probably 100 times faster than trying to sort through a combat log.

[Matte_Black]

I know this might come as a shock but you could just ask:

 

You - Hey tank what killed you?

 

Tank - Heals didn't keep up

 

You - What's happening heals? Too much damage to heal or did you get stunned or something?

 

Seriously folks, it's not that hard. In fact it's probably 100 times faster than trying to sort through a combat log.

 

Some people like their numbers exact. What you described is all I have ever needed for anaysis but, then again we have people who want 100% samples before they accept a 70/30 poll result as a majority. There is some percentage of the playerbase who does not want to work out fixes verbally and just wants to point to a low number so they can say it is the number and not them kicking people from the group.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Matte_Black

[Vankris]

global combat log are coming, it's been confirmed, and thank goodness for that.

 

As someone been pointing out, playing dps without any log or meter is kind of boring.

yes i understand the argument of playing for the story, enjoy the operation, don't worry about your number or anyone else for that matter, i tottaly get it.

 

 

but it's been known for years, player can chew trough content faster than developer can make them. Which leads to repeating the same content over and over. And quite franckly, once you beat the encounter a few times, it does not have the same epic feeling.

 

People farm it for loot, fair enough to increase your efficiency ... that you cannot see.

People also like the competition. with themselve, with their friend.

Combat log does a lot to increase lifetime of content.

 

Plus i believe, that pushing player toward excellence is always good for the community. If you dumb down the content like it's happening more and more in wow, you end up with a community incapable of pressing 3 button in right order or avoiding fire on the ground. You end up with LFR.

 

I strongly believe in having standard, and player will adapt, improve and make a better community in general. Giving the tools such as training droid and combat log will definitely help improving.

 

if the community is globally good, the global combat log is not even a thing, people will gladly welcome the possibility to meseare the results of their effort to others.

[Drewser]

Andray, don't scream peace maker in thread three. I didn't start off like that with you. It was your failure to understand my original argument against the nay sayer argument of fear of gauging.

 

P.S. I really hope you take a step back for a moment and try to realize how frustrating this thread has been for me. Whether you agree with me or not, you are clearly not an unintelligent person. You can see how many stupid posts have been here and how many times I had to repeat the same points even when they were in the OP over and over again. Sympathize with me a little bit and stop taking everything to heart. We are both passionate about our beliefs and that is nothing short of a good quality.

 

I'm only a few warnings in... I doubt I acted as bad as you think. Especially for a heavy heated topic and discussion.

 

Seriously? Why get so worked up over a game, let alone a thread discussing one aspect of it?

 

The fact you can't see your attitude and dismissiveness towards other people's viewpoints/opinions is why many who came to this thread, don't want public logs.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Drewser

[Nexdine]

Well, I for one prefer to keep my stats to myself at least. It appears that that is what's going to happen, or at least I hope so.

 

I have little interest in playing with people who view the game with the same passion that an accountant views an Excel sheet. Reducing the game to "hey that guy is 2% off on the DPS, kick him now" is just sad. As is kicking people for some other perceived shortcoming in armoring or gearing, for that matter.

[Snoodmaster]

I know this might come as a shock but you could just ask:

 

You - Hey tank what killed you?

 

Tank - Heals didn't keep up

 

You - What's happening heals? Too much damage to heal or did you get stunned or something?

 

Seriously folks, it's not that hard. In fact it's probably 100 times faster than trying to sort through a combat log.

 

And if the tank is wrong about his entirely subjective interpretation of what happened to him? Not only do you risk the healer being unnecessarily irritated if his view of the situation is different, but you also end up developing the wrong strategy to deal with the problem.

 

Humans are fallible. They experience things through an imperfect lens and form judgments about those experiences through occasionally illogical and biased thought processes. I would never, ever consider "asking the tank" to be a viable source of data. It's just not trustworthy enough.

 

For example:

1. A tank who has had trouble with healers in the past may think that the heals didn't keep up, when in fact the healer was on the ball and he simply got hit with a crit he didn't notice.

 

2. The tank could, surprisingly enough, be lying. There are plenty of people, especially in a PuG who are unwilling to take responsibility for their mistakes or their choices and want to blame anyone else. It's actually a fairly common human trait to want to avoid taking the blame for a disaster.

 

3. The tank could simply have not been paying attention to his health bars or to fly text in the brief 5second window in which the damage came.

 

4. The healer might disagree with the tank about the heals not keeping up and say that "the tank is too squishy." Who do you believe? How do you create a strategy to deal with the issue?

 

I'm not saying that every tank will lie. Or that you can never get an accurate result. I'm saying that it happens often enough, and the penalties for getting it wrong are steep enough, that it is preferable to avoid the possibility of bias and use a measure that is guaranteed to be objective and accurate. I.E. looking up the record of the combat log.

[Matte_Black]

As much as some keep pointing out that there is a need to tell "who is not pulling their weight", I'd be interested to know how those concerned about it define "pulling their weight".

 

1. Should everyone be doing the same DPS or an even share of what it takes to complete the op?
    
   
2. Is it possible for one group member to be overscaled for the challenge and take on too much of the weight where some could complain they are "hogging" the fights and targets? Do you correct their behavior or kick them?
    
   
3. Does one take into account opportunities to do damage, harder targets and other factors that can inflate or deflate DPS or other ratings?
    
   
4. Is pulling your weight more important than enjoying the game?
   

Edited March 15, 2012 by Matte_Black

[Ulmius]

I was happy to see the addition of combat dummies with the legacy system. Then I realized that without a real time log/meter running, they won't be so great. I've spent hours on the target dummies outside stormwind in wow trying to perfect my rotation and different gear setups while looking down at the meter to see which setup was the best. During my fight with the dummy I would look at the meter to see the dps go up and down and see how much I can put out when I pop all my cooldowns and see how I would do over a five minute duration.

 

With live logs/meters you can do that. However with a log that gets saved that you then have to run a parser when combat is finished, you cannot do that. For example, when you stop attacking, you don't get out of combat. If the log doesn't know you are trying to get out of combat, it will skew your results because time will pass and you'll be in combat so your dps will drop. You won't be able to see how well you do on burn phases by popping all your cooldowns, and overall it will be a hassle.

 

Combat dummies are fun...when you can see your info in real time. When you have to log out and run a parser each and every time they become cumbersome and an overall pain.

[Matte_Black]

Humans are fallible. They experience things through an imperfect lens and form judgments about those experiences through occasionally illogical and biased thought processes. I would never, ever consider "asking the tank" to be a viable source of data. It's just not trustworthy enough.

 

Wow!...just wow.

[Ulmius]

As much as some keep pointing out that there is a need to tell "who is not pulling their weight", I'd be interested to know how those concerned about it define "pulling their weight".

 

1. Should everyone be doing the same DPS or an even share of what it takes to complete the op?
    
   1) The same dps? No. But one shouldn't be blowing another dps out of the water unless he is over-geared. If you have two people in the same level of gear and one is doing 2-3 times more dps than the other one, then you know something is wrong.
    
   
2. Is it possible for one group member to be overscaled for the challenge and take on too much of the weight where some could complain you are "hogging" the fights and targets? Do you correct their behavior or kick them?
    
   2) People don't complain when you make a fight easier, they complain when you make them hard by playing poorly. Case in point - In wow on my enhance shaman I would pull around 35k dps. I would do my daily random heroic and sometimes there would be a group that was already started and someone left and I took their place. The other dps would be doing 8k dps and the one I replaced didn't fare much better. They would go from wiping over and over to now breezing through the instance. Not once would they say, "You are too good, you ruined the experience." Instead it was more like, "Wow you made this place easy, thanks for coming."
    
   
3. Does one take into account opportunities to do damage, harder targets and other factors that can inflate or deflate DPS or other ratings?
    
   3) Yes, that is taken into account. If someone is having to constantly run away from a boss because of aoe and thus not attacking, it's common sense that his dps will be lower than the ranged dps.
    
   
4. Is pulling your weight more important than enjoying the game?
    
   Is it acceptable to be selfish and not care about the group mates? Is it fair to join a group and knowingly do low dps when you could be doing a lot more? Is it fair for you to enjoy the game in a way that hurts the experience for 3-15 other people?
    
   

 

Not sure if those are acceptable answers, but it's how I feel about them.

[Sernon]

It is a recurring theme that arbitrary mechanical judgment is held above human interaction. Kinda defeats the purpose of the genre, where interaction is the whole point. Speaks volumes to what kind of attitudes that have been fostered "somewhere" lately.

 

---

[Matte_Black]

Not sure if those are acceptable answers, but it's how I feel about them.

 

Just trying to plumb the depths of what "pulling your weight" really means. Gets thrown around alot with varied meaning. A unified definition is sort of neccessity if you want to be fair about things while punishing players for unmet goals.

 

I have my own opinions about your answers while both agreeing and disagreeing with some but, mostly I think there needs to be clarity. Thanks for the response. Although, you did sort of dodge giving a direct answer to #4.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Matte_Black

[Seregul]

Wow!...just wow.

 

You've spent days insinuating that in-game meters would turn us all into depraved turd mushrooms and now you want to pretend to be surprised that someone would suggest people can sometimes get things wrong?

[Matte_Black]

Humans are fallible. They experience things through an imperfect lens and form judgments about those experiences through occasionally illogical and biased thought processes. I would never, ever consider "asking the tank" to be a viable source of data. It's just not trustworthy enough.

 

Wow!...just wow.

 

You've spent days insinuating that in-game meters would turn us all into depraved turd mushrooms and now you want to pretend to be surprised that someone would suggest people can sometimes get things wrong?

 

Nope, just amazed anyone expressing that position is even interested in an MMO, especially one of the more story-oriented ones. All that post lacked what a digitized robotic voice.

 

Exterminate!

Edited March 15, 2012 by Matte_Black