Solving the Jedi's "rock-throwing" problem

[Retro-]

Why can't the consular get some sort of energy attack themselves I mean, if the darkside can manifest lightening, im sure the lightside can manifest something other than a bag of pepples and dirt to throw at someone.

 

Hell make it lightening but change the color of it.

[Dyvim]

Why can't the consular get some sort of energy attack themselves I mean, if the darkside can manifest lightening, im sure the lightside can manifest something other than a bag of pepples and dirt to throw at someone.

 

Hell make it lightening but change the color of it.

 

Preacher meet the Choir...yes, energy effects based off of force push style effects clearly would be the way to go, they work in any environment, and dont make jedi=junk.

 

No one, and I mean no one would watch the star wars movies and then come up with the idea that jedi = junk.

 

The official wiki has some good insight into where the devs could have gone if they would have used the lore, some imagination, and not done the sith first, copied and pasted, then came up with rushed craptasms for the consular types...

 

If anything, when you watch the movies, you understand that Sith are the junk throwers, if anyone is....they throw more junk than they use choke or lightning...and in lucas games, all the way back to the jedi knight series, junk throwing was a darkside skill, as the canon really dictates.

 

Anyway, to the wiki and a few excerpts:

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Telekinesis

 

As one of the few offensive powers not fundamentally dark in nature, Force Push frequently forms the cornerstone of a Jedi's offensive arsenal.

 

Force Push

 

At more powerful levels, Force Push was the ability to create a telekinetic impulse via the Force, launching a concussive burst of pressurized air-not unlike the blast of an archaic 'pipe bomb'-that would impact a target with enough force to knock it over, launch it into the air, or even (particularly in the case of fragile materials such as ceramics) shatter it into pieces. The greater the user's telekinetic aptitude, the larger the pressure differential, and thus the stronger the effect and the heavier the target. With practice, a skilled Force user could increase the range and arc of the blast without lowering the average kinetic energy, creating a blanketed wave instead of a focused impulse. Truly gifted practitioners could generate a concussive blast that would radiate from them for dozens of meters in all directions, detonating with the force of a conventional explosive.

 

This power was an effective tool for keeping enemies at a distance. A well-aimed push could have sent the target crashing into a nearby wall or other obstruction, resulting in bludgeoning damage and possible disorientation or blackout. A Force push could also cause direct damage, by striking an enemy in the form of a telekinetic fist which had the power of a pile driver. This could injure or even kill enemies through the sheer power of the kinetic blast alone, rather than the damage caused by the collision of the target with a larger obstruction...

 

Notice the concepts you would have to work with...the mentions of bomb blast type shockwaves that can do damage through pressure and heat differentials. The possibilities for cool animations/powers are innumerable. Instead we get rocks, junk, and pebbles from some nubcake that made a shaman class instead of a jedi class.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Dyvim

[Rykrai]

Actually, I think the Sorc animation is pretty dull. I don't think the dev's put much thought into it. The Emperor does a lightning move at the end of a movie and thats it, every Sith does it - all the time. Variation isn't bad imo.

 

I like the idea behind the Jedi version, where you pick up the things around you. But it does seem pretty bad when you are in a stainless steel starship and rocks materialise out of no where and assault your victim.

 

For some reason though, its seems the "bad guys" always get the cool gear/animations in MMO's, while the "good guys" get the plain, boring or just downright bad stuff. Hope Bioware doesn't go down this road. More "out-of-the-box" thinking Bioware!!

 

[Shlamorel]

It's really a personal preference thing.

 

I like the rock animations much more than the lightning animations.

 

I agree. The only thing I would tweak is the intensity or size of the rocks in TK throw.

 

I like the sage. I made a sorcerer that I play occasionally in pvp.... and seriously.... every.single.attack is a lightning bolt of some form it seems like.

 

I agree that force lightning is a graphically beautiful ability. But it lost its luster quickly for me. On top of that, I found that having purple lightning made people mad at me so they started to focus me. On my sage, I feel like TK throw is covert so I am less noticed in a grp fighting situation

 

Otherwise, I like our mix of abilities. I like how we have pure force attacks (I.e., Disturbance) as well as some teliknetics (rock throw). I feel that we have much more variaty in our ability graphics - even if they aren't as flashy or cool.

 

Now, I will admit the one thing I'd be willing to take instead of TK throw is "white lightning". Same thing that the Imps have, just give Republic white (far-fetched, but I can dream).

[Hyfy]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=29235

 

50 page thread. Got derailed at the end by some trolls, but there were alot of good ideas in it. If you were in beta, build after build multiple posts by multiple players asking for changes to the project and throw animations were a constant. The ideas presented were legion...but mainly people just wanted them changed.

 

Real quick:

 

Project - replace with a saber throw...as mentioned above, would look awesome for Shadows...and finally give their animations a little oomph and something better on par with what Sins have...

 

-or-

 

Switch the project and disturbance anis....disturbance works in any environment, can easily be made insta cast with a tweak to the casting motion to avoid project delay, and is a version of force push...most jedi ranged skills are typically, in lore, based off of force push. It has ALWAYS been neutral and is used MANY times by jedi in the movies, particularly Yoda...who also uses a saber throw in the movies....Also, this would keep chunk a clunker in the game for those who like it, and give it the activation timer it DESPERATELY needs to begin to be credible. And making it environmentally aware would be nice too.

 

 

 

Throw - Change it out with a channeled, directed force shockwave effect. In the spirit of what Satele uses againts Malgus. Something that is based off of the force push idea, but looks POWERFUL...a little excerpt from the official wiki below to back up what I am talking about...basically I am think of a directed bomb blast effect, with pressure and heat differentials, created by the force, which makes sense, because they later learn force shockwave, an aoe version, that is described in the wiki as a more difficult skill to master....so they would learn to direct the shockwaves in a miore limited cone first...which would be worthy of competing in a game where other classes have lightning, blasters, missiles, flamethrowers, autocannons, etc. Pebbles are just unspeakably lame....

 

Force Push

 

At more powerful levels, Force Push was the ability to create a telekinetic impulse via the Force, launching a concussive burst of pressurized air-not unlike the blast of an archaic 'pipe bomb'-that would impact a target with enough force to knock it over, launch it into the air, or even (particularly in the case of fragile materials such as ceramics) shatter it into pieces. The greater the user's telekinetic aptitude, the larger the pressure differential, and thus the stronger the effect and the heavier the target. With practice, a skilled Force user could increase the range and arc of the blast without lowering the average kinetic energy, creating a blanketed wave instead of a focused impulse. Truly gifted practitioners could generate a concussive blast that would radiate from them for dozens of meters in all directions, detonating with the force of a conventional explosive.

 

 

I play mostly Imperial side but have recently decided to jump into the Republic foray with a Consular and I really like this idea. It would give a truly epic feel to someone who is supposed to be very much in tune with the force.

[HaibaneRenmai]

Why not have TK Throw be a channeled version of Project, iirc it does 4 ticks of damage so have a stream of 4 random big/medium objects be thrown at the target. And have project be a saber throw or something. Edited March 27, 2012 by HaibaneRenmai

[Viori]

Gravel, lightning, clunky-chunks, whatever physical objects or energy gets thrown about. they all seem to me to share a visual and conceptual problem: it’s difficult to imagine that they have an effect on just one target.

 

 

Three enemies standing shoulder-to-shoulder are swinging/shooting weapons at my sage. He uses his force powers to yank a smart-car-sized glob of whatever out of wherever and hurl it at them. How does it impact only one of them?

 

Likewise TK Throw’s gravel-flurry. How is that not at least a forward-cone attack? What stops the gravel pieces that happen to miss my target from smacking up against the next gaggle of enemies a few yards down the corridor? Does it just foreswear all its inertia and dematerialize?

 

I think that these attack conceits seem wrong partly because they can’t possibly be limited to a single target. Pure force-based attacks of the kind other posters have suggested might make for more believable animations and more imaginable effects.

Edited March 27, 2012 by Viori

[atteSmythe]

I actually really like Project, and I'm OK with Throw (though it looks like it should be an AoE attack).

 

However, it would be a really nice touch if Project would only throw objects appropriate to the ground that you're standing on. They already have access to that information to play the correct footstep sound, after all!

 

No droid carcasses in the forest, no hunks of rock on starships.

[Dyvim]

I actually really like Project, and I'm OK with Throw (though it looks like it should be an AoE attack).

 

However, it would be a really nice touch if Project would only throw objects appropriate to the ground that you're standing on. They already have access to that information to play the correct footstep sound, after all!

 

No droid carcasses in the forest, no hunks of rock on starships.

 

Yeah, this is necessary if it stays in the game...but this in no way fixes the other problems for the ani...if you switch out the disturbance and project ani's, you would get an activation timer for chunk a clunker and solve #1 and #3 below as well. As a Disturbance replacement, it would still see use, and be in the game...but it wouldnt be the signature, always used, skill it is now...so it would go part of the way in removing the JUNK = JEDI equation.

 

1) Its damage delay and lack of mirror consistency

 

2) It is ridiculous to conjure stuff out of the ground constantly...throwing junk was done better 15 years ago in DF2:Jedi Knight because you only threw things that EXISTED in the current environment. Junk or debris already laying around. No magic conjuring. And it was a darkside ability then, as it always has been...so it should NEVER have seen the light of day as the signature jedi skill here.

 

3) See above...in six movies jedi never threw a rock or pebbles at someone. NEVER. When it comes to throwing other things...well Sith do it. Every Sith. More than they use lightning and more then they choke. Anakin does it a couple of times in a darth vader preview, so I dont count him as jedi, and Yoda reflectively does it once after paliptane throws 7+ hover pods at him. Jedi use choke in the movies about as much as they throw junk. It should NEVER be the basis of the jedi skills in this game, or the signature skills. In this game Junk = Jedi. It is completely unacceptable.

 

If you cant get the jedi basics right, what is the point of a star wars game? Jedi arent junk throwers. THey dont do it EVERY combat, EVERY rotation. Its like a never ending joke, or star wars parody that you would see on robot chicken...I am a jedi...the force is a powerful ally...I haz pebbles...*rollseyes*

Edited March 27, 2012 by Dyvim

[Tedroni]

What if, instead of a pebble storm, the Consulars got a "ground-up" animation?

 

Instead of a stream of pebbles comming from off to the side to hit the enemy, the ground between the Consular and his/her target rips up and flings debris (based on ground texture: sand, metal, rock, etc) from a rolling source towards the target as it follows the line. During the animation, the ground would look like it's being tilled (chewed up) as the source moves along the line and tears up the ground as the debris fly out of it.

 

We'll end up with rocks a lot of the time, anyway, but the source would be right there instead of invisible and off to the side. From sand, rock, and grass textured ground, we'd still get little rocks; from icy ground, ice crystals; from metal floors, strips of torn metal.

[Tedroni]

2) It is ridiculous to conjure stuff out of the ground constantly...throwing junk was done better 15 years ago in DF2:Jedi Knight because you only threw things that EXISTED in the current environment. Junk or debris already laying around. No magic conjuring. And it was a darkside ability then, as it always has been...so it should NEVER have seen the light of day as the signature jedi skill here.

 

Can't really compare a single-player game to an MMO. In the single player, you're the only guy there. That stuff you're throwing is meant for you to throw it. In an MMO it'd just be in the way for the other seven classes. There'd be no reason for it to be there 85% of the time. Then what happens if you've doubled up in a group? A sage and a shadow can both throw things, so what happens when you have two consulars and they both want to throw the same thing? They'd run out of "ammo." If they're not grouped and just happen to be in the same place fighting mobs near each other, that just makes it worse to have a set amount of amunition.

 

You can complain if you want, but unless you can offer a *viable* alternative, then BioWare/EA has *no* reason to change anything, and *every* reason to keep it like it is.

 

3) See above...in six movies jedi never threw a rock or pebbles at someone. NEVER. When it comes to throwing other things...well Sith do it. Every Sith. More than they use lightning and more then they choke. Anakin does it a couple of times in a darth vader preview, so I dont count him as jedi, and Yoda reflectively does it once after paliptane throws 7+ hover pods at him. Jedi use choke in the movies about as much as they throw junk. It should NEVER be the basis of the jedi skills in this game, or the signature skills. In this game Junk = Jedi. It is completely unacceptable.

 

In the movies, Jedi used the Force for Perception (telepathy, empathy, precognition), Agility (Yoda/Dooku fight, Force Leap), Movement (Force Sprint/Leap), Telekinesis (Force Push, pull lightsaber, throw lightsaber, catch), and Determination of Applied Force (to know how much strength to apply to the lightsaber). If they made Jedi like this in an MMO, they'd be the perfect melee tanks, but that's it. They'd be practically unkillable.

 

If you cant get the jedi basics right, what is the point of a star wars game? Jedi arent junk throwers. THey dont do it EVERY combat, EVERY rotation. Its like a never ending joke, or star wars parody that you would see on robot chicken...I am a jedi...the force is a powerful ally...I haz pebbles...*rollseyes*

 

Jedi basics: Can't be hit by blaster-fire 95% of the time (obvious implications for MMO fights); Can cut almost anything in half with a single sweep of their lightsaber (one-hit/one-kill; also a problem for MMOs); Can't be taken by surprise 95% of the time (no stealth classes except Jedi/Sith could work on a Jedi or a Sith, no long-ranged attacks can succeed without excessive planning like locking a Jedi into melee combat with overwhelming numbers, then blowing up your own guys along with the Jedi). Any game needs latitude from it's source material (unless that source material is made up specifically for that game).

 

Again, without a reasonable suggestion for BioWare/EA to move towards, there's no reason for them to move away from what they've come up with. There isn't even any reason to put any resources into *considering how to do it better.* That's looking backwards and they're looking forwards... (currently into bugs and connectivity issues since the game is still pretty new)

[Dyvim]

Can't really compare a single-player game to an MMO. In the single player, you're the only guy there. That stuff you're throwing is meant for you to throw it. In an MMO it'd just be in the way for the other seven classes. There'd be no reason for it to be there 85% of the time. Then what happens if you've doubled up in a group? A sage and a shadow can both throw things, so what happens when you have two consulars and they both want to throw the same thing? They'd run out of "ammo." If they're not grouped and just happen to be in the same place fighting mobs near each other, that just makes it worse to have a set amount of amunition.

 

Well, that is kind of the point. There is nothing that says you get to cheat with junk throwing by magically conjuring junk out of the ground endlessly. NO JEDI does that EVER. For junk throwing to work, it HAS to be in the environment. Otherwise your game CANT HANDLE it and you go with something else. Magically conjuring is ridiculous. And jedi arent even junk throwers. Sith are.

 

Obvious suggestions, put forth by the community, have been to switch the disturbance and project anis, so project gets an activation timer, or to simply remove project and replace it with a saber throw...sages have long complained that their saber is nothing more than a statstick, and what makes more sense for a jedi to throw than the lightsaber that is already in his hand that should be able to do ALOT more damage than a rock or droid chassis. These animations are already in the game, they work well, and the fixes would require manageable LOEs...EXTREMELY *viable*

 

You can complain if you want, but unless you can offer a *viable* alternative, then BioWare/EA has *no* reason to change anything, and *every* reason to keep it like it is.

 

There have been about a thousand posts detailing the problems and offering viable alternatives, ever since the existing animations were rolled out as far back as anyone can remember in beta.

 

In the movies, Jedi used the Force for Perception (telepathy, empathy, precognition), Agility (Yoda/Dooku fight, Force Leap), Movement (Force Sprint/Leap), Telekinesis (Force Push, pull lightsaber, throw lightsaber, catch), and Determination of Applied Force (to know how much strength to apply to the lightsaber). If they made Jedi like this in an MMO, they'd be the perfect melee tanks, but that's it. They'd be practically unkillable.

 

Wrong. That is just simply wrong. Clones wiped out just about every jedi. Jedi certainly arent unkillable, and the legion of lucas jedi games has had no problem handling this...but back to talking about ranged skills...for jedi they should clearly be based of force push variants, not junk throwing. Sith throw junk. EVERY SITH in the movies throws junk. They do it more than any OTHER ranged attack. There are PLENTY of force push variants or ideas to come up with to make awesome animations, as cool or cooler than lightning, that do NOT cheat the environment and make jedi = junk.

 

Jedi basics: Can't be hit by blaster-fire 95% of the time (obvious implications for MMO fights); Can cut almost anything in half with a single sweep of their lightsaber (one-hit/one-kill; also a problem for MMOs); Can't be taken by surprise 95% of the time (no stealth classes except Jedi/Sith could work on a Jedi or a Sith, no long-ranged attacks can succeed without excessive planning like locking a Jedi into melee combat with overwhelming numbers, then blowing up your own guys along with the Jedi). Any game needs latitude from it's source material (unless that source material is made up specifically for that game).

 

Again watch RotS. THey were taken by surprise and killed by the hundreds or maybe thousands. And considering jedi are fighting against sith in this game, sith have NEVER had any trouble killing jedi...but obviously you have to take into account game mechanics..which is also part of the problem with chunk a clunker, it breaks some of those very mechanics. And further we are talking about the SIGNATURE skills for jedi in the game, so its about lore, cannon, look and feel. And right now they are junk throwers and look and feel like conjuring earth shamans instead of jedi...

 

Again, without a reasonable suggestion for BioWare/EA to move towards, there's no reason for them to move away from what they've come up with. There isn't even any reason to put any resources into *considering how to do it better.* That's looking backwards and they're looking forwards... (currently into bugs and connectivity issues since the game is still pretty new)

 

I'll paste this in here again. There have been tons of reasonable suggestions, and the problems with the rock throwing animations are WELL known and have been discussed ad nauseam...they are listed again below in case youve missed it...

 

Shock is instadamage. Project isnt.

 

Some people like the delay because it allows them to burst "cheat" the GCD...you basically get to hit a target with 3 GCDs worth of damage while they only have 2 GCDs to respond with defense, healing or whatever...here is a post from a burster:

 

 

 

 

Just after you cast Project, it lingers there in the air for about a second. There's advantages and disadvantages to this, but for the burst part, here's what a burst chain (assuming all crits) would look like:

 

A (GCD) B (GCD) C

........4k 4k......... 4k

____+2k

 

For Assassin, it's like this:

 

A (GCD) B (GCD) C

4k........ 4k......... 4k

+2k

 

 

A - Project/Shock

B - Force Breach / Discharge

C - Shadow Strike / Maul

 

"All crits" happens more than you might think. Project, Auto-Project, and Force Breach, eat all 3 charges of Force Potency, but for burst it's worth it. Then ShadowStrike(Maul), and subsequent Spinning Strikes(Assassinate), have on a BM Shadow/Assassin, around a 43-45% crit chance.

 

Bad Shadows will project in the middle of that chain, and watch as their target survives their awkward burst, then come here to cry about it..

 

 

Beyond these mechanics issues, Project is a ridiculous animation as it magically conjures items out the ground. It gets worse, as half the time these magically conjured items could not logically be there in the first place, like rocks out of starship decks...

 

Even worse, jedi arent junk throwers. Sith throw junk in the movies, all of them, all the time. More than they choke or use lightning. They throw junk about 18x more than jedi. But in this game jedi = junk. Every combat, every rotation, jedi are chunking rocks, junk and/or pebbles. Its like a neverending bad joke from an episode of robot chicken...I am jedi, the force is my ally, I haz pebbles...and junk...

 

So to recap...

 

1) The animation breaks the mirror mechanic

2) The animation allows for GCD burst cheating...which further violates the mirror mechanic

and the GCD mechanic

3) The animation breaks the suspension of disbelief mechanic with endless junk conjuring

4) The animation violates the lore/canon by making jedi = junk. Clearly the signature class skills should be based off of some variation of force push...

 

From the official star wars wiki on telekinesis:

As one of the few offensive powers not fundamentally dark in nature, Force Push frequently forms the cornerstone of a Jedi's offensive arsenal.

 

Jedi rarely throw things at people. Jedi also rarely choke and rarely shoot green lightning (aka electric judgment)...making their two starter, signature skills based on junk throwing makes about as much sense as having them shoot green sparks or choke all the time. They can do it, but they do NOT frequently do it...you expect to see Sith do these things...

 

Looks like we are out of time for 1.2, but this REALLY needs to be fixed.

 

Suggestions for Project and TK Throw change here:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=29235

 

There is a reason this game has a severe faction imbalance, and its not just because we are up to our neck in WoW kiddie horde types. The republic side looks and feels weak compared t the Sith side. It feels like the B team was put to work on it, and even they phoned it in...This IP has been around forever. If you cant make jedi, smugglers and troopers cool and figure out how to balance the factions, then you fail. Period. And a great start would be to remove the jedi = junk equation this game is fixated on...

 

Ive seen post after post, some in this very thread, where players state that the played the sith side on inq, tried the rep side on con, and found it SORELY lacking. Unimpressive, weak, sluggish...underwhelming...Ive seen all these things posted by players. You do NOT see that on the Sith side. Here is an example from just today:

 

...

 

I have a 50 Shadow and a 50 Trooper so I know all to well of the disadvantage those classes have in a PvP setting, Project cost me more losses then I could count due to the delay.

 

For shizz & giggles I made a Sith Inq & a Bounty Hunter to see the difference in PvP and I can tell you first hand that they have a MASSIVE advantage in PvP vs there counter part, there animations do not delay making my PvP more enjoyable giving me more control over my combos.

...

Edited March 29, 2012 by Dyvim

[TurokDarkstar]

Project isn't to bad, but the pebble throwing is a downer. I like the OP's idea about fissures opening up in the ground and whatnot. I usually choose "mage" type classes for their fancy shmanciness -- Just doesn't exist with Sage. =(

 

Also agree that force quake has an awesome animation both for the character and the actual attack.

[ocping]

Here's my suggestion of new things that should be randomly "projected" at your enemies:

 

1) Your mother-in-law's house deeds and favourite jewelry

 

2) All records of your Year-to-date proof of taxable income

 

3) A boombox playing Dubstep "songs"

 

4) Entire collection of Twilight books/DVDs in your neighbourhood

[Dyvim]

Here's my suggestion of new things that should be randomly "projected" at your enemies:

 

1) Your mother-in-law's house deeds and favourite jewelry

 

2) All records of your Year-to-date proof of taxable income

 

3) A boombox playing Dubstep "songs"

 

4) Entire collection of Twilight books/DVDs in your neighbourhood

 

I feel your anger, let the hatred flow through you...lol

[Viori]

From William Wallace's developer blog on legacy features:

 

On completing Chapter 2 with a character, your characters gain the use of an emote unique to that class. For example, if you finish Chapter 2 with your Inquisitor, you unlock an emote which causes your character to throw lightning between his hands.

 

So I guess this means that consulars will unlock an emote that has them throwing a rock back and forth between their hands? Awesome!

[iTryHard]

Ok, first of all, Consulars who use Project aren't cheating. This is BW's fault for the animation delay. And you could get just as nice burst as a SI with Shock.

Say you're a Deception Assassin, you do: Voltaic Slash-Voltaic Slash-SaberStrike(til Maul proc and until you have x5 Static Charge)-Maul-Discharge-Shock

Since Shock is instant, well it's instant, so you don't have to wait for your Project to complete its animation.

If anything Consulars are getting shafted here because of the delay, how hard is it to make a charging up effect on Shock to make it on par with Project? Sure some may use Project to deal a nice burst, but the delay on it will get you killed, if you're low health 1v1ing an Assassin you can Project, he can Shock, guess who'll die first? Yep, you, because Shock's instant.

Edit: Oh and BTW, Dyvim, I checked out your thread about this, it seems to be a little more oriented on Sages. Do you know how ridiculous it'd be if we threw our saber as Shadows? Clipping galore as it returns to your hand that's what'd happen.

Have not played Sage, so please forgive me if I'm thinking of the wrong ability. But Disturbance is that kind of energy sphere that Sages fling right? Shadows aren't focused on their force abilites more their mastery of saber techniques. It would seem that they wouldn't the same Force mastery to "magically" conjure it? I don't know, just trying to think here.

Edited March 30, 2012 by iTryHard

[Dyvim]

Ok, first of all, Consulars who use Project aren't cheating. This is BW's fault for the animation delay. And you could get just as nice burst as a SI with Shock.

Say you're a Deception Assassin, you do: Voltaic Slash-Voltaic Slash-SaberStrike(til Maul proc and until you have x5 Static Charge)-Maul-Discharge-Shock

Since Shock is instant, well it's instant, so you don't have to wait for your Project to complete its animation.

If anything Consulars are getting shafted here because of the delay, how hard is it to make a charging up effect on Shock to make it on par with Project? Sure some may use Project to deal a nice burst, but the delay on it will get you killed, if you're low health 1v1ing an Assassin you can Project, he can Shock, guess who'll die first? Yep, you, because Shock's instant.

Edit: Oh and BTW, Dyvim, I checked out your thread about this, it seems to be a little more oriented on Sages. Do you know how ridiculous it'd be if we threw our saber as Shadows? Clipping galore as it returns to your hand that's what'd happen.

Have not played Sage, so please forgive me if I'm thinking of the wrong ability. But Disturbance is that kind of energy sphere that Sages fling right? Shadows aren't focused on their force abilites more their mastery of saber techniques. It would seem that they wouldn't the same Force mastery to "magically" conjure it? I don't know, just trying to think here.

 

I agree fully, it is BWs fault and THEY need to fix it. And it SHOULD be fixed in 1.2. But players that like the GCD "workaround" and are posting here repeatedly to try and stop the fix...well that is lame.

 

If you read the official wiki on force push style effects, the hardest to master is the 360 deg wave. Since both shadows and sages have force shockwave, by lore and canon, doing a directed Force shockwave at a single target (something like disturbance) is VERY doable.

 

Im not sure why you think a dbl bladed saber throw wouldnt look incredible...just use the guardian or sentinel one, then picture a second motion blurred blade and you are there...not sure how it would clip more than anything else. Or how about this, you throw it with just one of the blades ignited, then after it returns to your hand both reignite. Coming up with something awesome really would be trivial.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Dyvim

[iTryHard]

Actually, you're right, it would look nice, because Clairvoyant Strikes/Voltaic Slash is kinda flashy spinning around and stuff. Your idea is very plausible then, BW just need to implement it -_-

[Dyvim]

Actually, you're right, it would look nice, because Clairvoyant Strikes/Voltaic Slash is kinda flashy spinning around and stuff. Your idea is very plausible then, BW just need to implement it -_-

 

lol, thank you. I wish I liked the chances...

[Tedroni]

Well, that is kind of the point. There is nothing that says you get to cheat with junk throwing by magically conjuring junk out of the ground endlessly. NO JEDI does that EVER. For junk throwing to work, it HAS to be in the environment. Otherwise your game CANT HANDLE it and you go with something else. Magically conjuring is ridiculous. And jedi arent even junk throwers. Sith are.

 

Again, it's an MMO. You've got to give the dev's lattitude. There's just no way to make a Jedi in-game the same as a Jedi in the movies. They didn't use the Force offensively at all, apart from Force-Push and Lightsabers.

 

Obvious suggestions, put forth by the community, have been to switch the disturbance and project anis, so project gets an activation timer, or to simply remove project and replace it with a saber throw...sages have long complained that their saber is nothing more than a statstick, and what makes more sense for a jedi to throw than the lightsaber that is already in his hand that should be able to do ALOT more damage than a rock or droid chassis. These animations are already in the game, they work well, and the fixes would require manageable LOEs...EXTREMELY *viable*

 

Ok. I like that. I agree that Sages should have a saber-throw since one of the only two saber-throws we see in two trilogies is Yoda in Episode 3. But do we want saber-throwing to be as common as rock-throwing is now? It was a difficult skill and most Jedi couldn't do it...

 

There have been about a thousand posts detailing the problems and offering viable alternatives, ever since the existing animations were rolled out as far back as anyone can remember in beta.

 

That's great! But if you don't remind the devs that you've seen those posts, too, they're going to take your criticism as just grousing.

 

I'm not trying to say that your points were bad; I agree with most of them. However, the devs will dismiss what they think is grousing very quickly. They have to. There's way too much of it on the forums, and way too few of them for them to take that kind of time.

 

Wrong. That is just simply wrong. Clones wiped out just about every jedi.

 

Yup. The clones wiped out 99% of all the Jedi. There were about a dozen clones per Jedi in a squad. And that only counts the ones that weren't leading a batallion at the time.

 

Of course, I think you're neglecting to take into account that it took Palpatine *fifty years* to set that up. He had to join the senate, secretly feed the dissent in the Republic's less satisfied worlds, secretly manipulate the trade federation, become chancellor, create a secret clone army, start a civil war, secretly run both sides of the civil war, etc, etc, etc...

 

If that doesn't qualify as overwhelming force and over-complicated planning, idk what would. So, I stand by my previous statement. Jedi/Sith would be nigh unkillable by the other four base classes if they mirrored the movies in this game.

 

Jedi certainly arent unkillable, and the legion of lucas jedi games has had no problem handling this...but back to talking about ranged skills...for jedi they should clearly be based of force push variants, not junk throwing. Sith throw junk. EVERY SITH in the movies throws junk. They do it more than any OTHER ranged attack.

 

I think you're making too much out of the "every sith did this" and "no jedi ever did that." Vader and Maul were the only movie Sith who used telekinesis more than lightning and that was because lightning would've shorted out Vader's life-support suit, and Maul was lightsaber-focused, not power-focused. As for the Jedi not throwing things at people, I think that's a less-direct method of attacking people with the Force over Force-Push and there's no reason cannonically as to why the Jedi *can't* throw things with the Force; they throw lightsabers with the intent to kill their target/s and use the Force to do so...

 

There are PLENTY of force push variants or ideas to come up with to make awesome animations, as cool or cooler than lightning, that do NOT cheat the environment and make jedi = junk.

 

I like the idea of using variants of Force-Push. It'd be flashy and in-line with the Lore.

 

I disagree when you say pulling junk from out-of-sight, even junk that is unlikely to be in that environment, is cheating. A droid leg out of the sand? R2 and, especially, 3PO were almost lost to the desert on Tatooine. A droid chassis on a forest world? How many bits of AT-STs do you think were left on Endor's Forest Moon after Episode 6? It may not be pretty. But it *is* convenient, and *isn't* lore-breaking, so I think you gotta cut the devs some slack.

 

Again watch RotS. THey were taken by surprise and killed by the hundreds or maybe thousands. And considering jedi are fighting against sith in this game, sith have NEVER had any trouble killing jedi...but obviously you have to take into account game mechanics..which is also part of the problem with chunk a clunker, it breaks some of those very mechanics. And further we are talking about the SIGNATURE skills for jedi in the game, so its about lore, cannon, look and feel. And right now they are junk throwers and look and feel like conjuring earth shamans instead of jedi...

 

Already dealt with the RotS bit above.

 

Sorry about the misunderstanding. I figured you'd reailze that I was using "Jedi" as an easier/shorter term for "trained force user," since the Sith had all those same perceptive abilites that I listed.

 

Signature move... Ok. I agree with you. One of those two signature moves *should* have been based off of Force-Push. Personally, I dislike the pebble-throwing thing far more than the pull-a-rock-out-of-the-ground thing. But since I just got kicked off with a 9000 error *again* *tonight,* I'd rather the devs put more resources into game stability than re-working animations.

[Dyvim]

Again, it's an MMO. You've got to give the dev's lattitude. There's just no way to make a Jedi in-game the same as a Jedi in the movies. They didn't use the Force offensively at all, apart from Force-Push and Lightsabers.

 

Yep, I am willing to, as long as they dont violate the IP. I feel they have. Jedi arent junk throwers. It is NOT their signature, defining skill. I would be perfectly happy to give them plenty of creative latitude to base skills off of the force push concept or a saber throw or any other idea that isnt shown to us as being a frequent Sith offensive move, done by every sith ever seen in a movie.

 

Ok. I like that. I agree that Sages should have a saber-throw since one of the only two saber-throws we see in two trilogies is Yoda in Episode 3. But do we want saber-throwing to be as common as rock-throwing is now? It was a difficult skill and most Jedi couldn't do it...

 

Well, yes. It has been very very common in alot of jedi games, with good effect. It makes sense and it has always been considered a truly neutral power in lore and licensed games. And the motion blur effect looks really good in this game. Also, Ive seen about a gazillion posts from sages complaining that their saber is nothing more than a stat stick...and I would REALLY like to see a dbl bladed version for shadows...it would finally give them something a little different and a little cooler than Sins.

 

That's great! But if you don't remind the devs that you've seen those posts, too, they're going to take your criticism as just grousing.

 

I'm not trying to say that your points were bad; I agree with most of them. However, the devs will dismiss what they think is grousing very quickly. They have to. There's way too much of it on the forums, and way too few of them for them to take that kind of time.

 

I started a 50 page thread in these forums about changing project and throw. There have been multiple threads in every beta forum I ever saw and in these forums, post launch, talking about the need for change for various reasons with project and throw.

 

Yup. The clones wiped out 99% of all the Jedi. There were about a dozen clones per Jedi in a squad. And that only counts the ones that weren't leading a batallion at the time.

 

Of course, I think you're neglecting to take into account that it took Palpatine *fifty years* to set that up. He had to join the senate, secretly feed the dissent in the Republic's less satisfied worlds, secretly manipulate the trade federation, become chancellor, create a secret clone army, start a civil war, secretly run both sides of the civil war, etc, etc, etc...

 

If that doesn't qualify as overwhelming force and over-complicated planning, idk what would. So, I stand by my previous statement. Jedi/Sith would be nigh unkillable by the other four base classes if they mirrored the movies in this game.

 

Yes but palpitane was 1 versus how many thousands of jedi? Of course it took planning. But Palipitane took out 3 of 4 jedi masters in about 5 seconds. Sure Mace pwned his @ss...but that was a setup too for Anakins betrayal.

 

And those 12 to 1 clones were just clones...albeit clones of jango, but still they werent the kind of heroic archetypes that players populate this game with...I just guess I feel that the idea of jedi invincibility or superiority in games, particularly MMOs, was debunked, destroyed, etc. a long long time ago (pun intended )

 

I think you're making too much out of the "every sith did this" and "no jedi ever did that." Vader and Maul were the only movie Sith who used telekinesis more than lightning and that was because lightning would've shorted out Vader's life-support suit, and Maul was lightsaber-focused, not power-focused. As for the Jedi not throwing things at people, I think that's a less-direct method of attacking people with the Force over Force-Push and there's no reason cannonically as to why the Jedi *can't* throw things with the Force; they throw lightsabers with the intent to kill their target/s and use the Force to do so...

 

You should go back and look...Dooku used junk throwing just about as much, if not more than lightning. He openned and ended his battle with Yoda in aotc with it. Palpitane threw at least 7 senate pods...again...at least as many times as he zapped lightning...or close to it. Throwing things is the classic angry girl friend temper tantrum move. It always has been, and it has ALWAYS been represented as a darkside trait. Think of all the screen time in the movies we have seen of jedi training. NOT ONCE did Yoda train Luke to throw something at a target. Or has any other jedi been so trained in the films. That was what was so striking about Vader use of junk throwing on Bespin. It was such a CLEAR perversion or twisting of what Yoda had taught Luke.

 

Force Push on the other hand is a classic defensive move. You are pushing the enemy away. Knocking them down. And unlike Throw, Force Push has always been classified as neutral in the same licensed games, going back over 15 years, that Throw was classified as darkside in...

 

I like the idea of using variants of Force-Push. It'd be flashy and in-line with the Lore.

 

I disagree when you say pulling junk from out-of-sight, even junk that is unlikely to be in that environment, is cheating. A droid leg out of the sand? R2 and, especially, 3PO were almost lost to the desert on Tatooine. A droid chassis on a forest world? How many bits of AT-STs do you think were left on Endor's Forest Moon after Episode 6? It may not be pretty. But it *is* convenient, and *isn't* lore-breaking, so I think you gotta cut the devs some slack.

 

lol, it is cheating, clearly. If you want to throw junk, you have to put in the time to have it in the environment. that was out of scope for them, so they CHEATED. It is blatantly obvious. And here is a little fun trivia. When you throw junk with project, different clients use a different random piece of junk. I have seen this on side by side monitors with two accounts. So when I think Im hitting you with a rock, you see a droid chassis coming at you. YES, CHEATING....lol.

 

Already dealt with the RotS bit above.

 

Sorry about the misunderstanding. I figured you'd reailze that I was using "Jedi" as an easier/shorter term for "trained force user," since the Sith had all those same perceptive abilites that I listed.

 

Signature move... Ok. I agree with you. One of those two signature moves *should* have been based off of Force-Push. Personally, I dislike the pebble-throwing thing far more than the pull-a-rock-out-of-the-ground thing. But since I just got kicked off with a 9000 error *again* *tonight,* I'd rather the devs put more resources into game stability than re-working animations.

 

Both animations have multiple problems. But chunk a clunker is just FAR too ridiculous and has a damage delay that is unacceptable for numerous mechanical reasons (mirror mechanic, delay mechanic, Target can cloak and avoid it, etc.). Plus there are the signature, look and feel issues, that it sounds like you agree with.

 

In any case, thank you for the thoughtful reply. Cheers.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Dyvim

[ArlindoGMNeto]

Well, this tells us what they're using all the excess capacity for on my server....leasing it to Xynga. ^^

 

I wouldn't mind seeing them developing animations based on the environment you're in.

 

Ice chunks on Hoth, metal debris on Corsucant, etc etc.

 

It's a decent generic animation as it stands, though. Bonus points if occasional special areas have...er...easter eggs for Project as far as what gets dug up. Like, er. Tractors.

 

Wouldn´t be awesome if they have used the system from Force Unleashed, where you had to manually use the force to lift things from the environment, aim a lightsaber throw and so on?

 

Sure combat wouldn´t be so fast, but it would be way more fun and rewarding.

[FluxWing]

I recently played through Taris on my BH. In the final assault on the Republic spaceport there is an NPC called Jedi Champion.

 

They are a mix of a Jedi Shadow and Guardian. They wear light armor and a double-bladed lightsaber.

 

I was kiting them back and forth, and they kept using a Blade Storm ability to hit me at range.

 

I thought it looked plain awsome.

 

I really wish that Project would use this animaiton.

It wouldn't be so difficult to implement, since the animation exists. Well at least for double-bladed lightsabers, I don't know about Sages.

 

Reusing animations from other classes shouldn't be a problem, considering Spinning Kick and Force Kick already share animations for the Knight and Consular.

 

Even the tooltip makes sense: "Use the Force to project a wave of energy towards the target, dealing kinetic damage"

[LemmingLeader]

I just wish project were a bit more varied. I'd love to see a kitchen sink, a Caddy Coup de Ville, a fish tank (with fish), or a piano.

 

+1 for Kitchen Sink.

 

Though Wile E. Coyote hates you for the piano.