Solving the Jedi's "rock-throwing" problem

[Ultimas]

I've been playing Republic since the game launched, it wasn't until about a week ago I rolled up a Sorc (and a Jugg but that's not important here). I do love to play my level 40 Sage.

All of the Sorc's abilities are Lightning-based, very fancy and such. The Sage's two main abilities are aren't nearly as fancy. The only ability Sages use that seems pretty nice is Force Quake. Very cool actually. So why not may Sage abilities Earth-based? The two abilities that are the most egregious offenders are Project and Telekinetic Throw.

 

• It shouldn't be too much to change Project into a mini-Force Quake that hits one target for a potential knock-down. Throw in just a small bit of flaming rocks and something like this looks even nicer. Should be pretty easy to do.
  
• Telekinetic Throw could also be changed to something to emit from a fissure in the ground instead of the pebbles-out-of-nowhere or a barrage of force energy being thrown toward the target (like multiple small Disturbance shots).
  

 

Little changes like this could help rid Republic Faction of the whole "rock-throwing Jedi" problem, as all of the other Force-user classes seem very cool (Knights, Inquisiters, and Warriors) it should be pretty simple to bring Sages/Shadows to the same level.

[Dulwaithe]

It's really a personal preference thing.

 

I like the rock animations much more than the lightning animations.

[Tierven]

I like how the engine randomly throws a bunch of stuff out of the ground personally, but I do agree the gravel thing is a bit weak in appearance. My suggestion to Bioware would be to do the same thing with the gravel shooting attack as with the bigger throw, randomly change the animation every time you cast it. Sometimes it could be gravel still, but sometimes it could be nuts and bolts, or ice crystals, or force pulses, or jawas, or other random things that are lying around. Also, making it so the stuff comes from somewhere would also improve matters.

 

Also, increasing the amount of different things I'm throwing with my other ability would be cool too, one of my favorite things about playing my sage is laughing at the random stuff I'm pulling out of the ground to hit baddies in the face.

[cbowsin]

I don't know what you are talking about, the Sage animations rock!!!

But then again the Sorc animations are pretty electrifying too!

 

 

(get it? )

[Avinshara]

Calling something you don't like a "problem" doesn't make it so.

 

I agree, adding more and various objects to the animations would be nice- but I'll continue to play mine regardless.

[SpacePiglet]

I love the rock throwing animation!

I always have a good laugh when the sage throws random things!

Maybe more random items

Regardless, this 'issue' is certainly not a 'problem'.

Edited March 14, 2012 by SpacePiglet

[mousestalker]

I just wish project were a bit more varied. I'd love to see a kitchen sink, a Caddy Coup de Ville, a fish tank (with fish), or a piano.

[ZedFighter]

It's really a personal preference thing.

 

I like the rock animations much more than the lightning animations.

 

Couldn't agree more! I love smashing things in the face with a rock or a piece of building

 

Lightening is just a silly fizzle =\

[Dyvim]

It's really a personal preference thing.

 

I like the rock animations much more than the lightning animations.

 

Yes, this horse has been beaten, and will continue to be beaten until some changes are made...there is a 50 page thread here:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=29235

 

Actually its not just personal preference. If this was some generic fantasy game, then perhaps, but it is a star wars game. In the movies I saw, jedi werent junk throwers. Sith were. In fact, Sith threw junk more than they used choke, more than they used lightning. EVERY SINGLE sith throws junk. Jedi? No, not so much. In fact, in the movies, jedi use choke as much as they throw stuff. (Unless you want to count Anakin doing a Darth Vader preview)

 

1) Lore aside, Project and to a lesser extent Throw, cheat. They are ignorant of the environment and require a massive suspension of disbelief beyond what is necessary for a force user in a star wars game. You cant magically pull up rocks out of starship decks, you dont have an endless supply of pebbles, and there isnt a convenient droid scrapyard buried at your feet wherever you go. They are simply RIDICULOUS. Thoroughly ridiculous.

 

2) Then you have the lack of proper mirror mechanics with project. This could well get fixed in 1.2, but who knows.

 

3) Lets go back to the Lore. Throwing junk, when included in lucas games going back almost 20 years, has been darkside. Not even neutral, much less Light. And anyone that watches the movies and wants to be honest can figure out why...all the Sith do it, and they use that ranged attack more than any other ranged attack. And jedi virtually never do it. Jedi choke and shoot lightning about as much as they throw junk. So basing the TWO signature jedi skills off of junk throwing is problematic at best. Jedi ranged skills are typically based around force push and its variations. Force push has always been regarded as neutral.

 

4) There is a HUGE coolness gap, IMO. Here is where preference comes in to an extent, but it is undeniable that the consualr animations are lackluster or dull compared to the Sith side...examples...

 

Force Breach is ridiculous compared to the Sith counterpart where basically your saberstaff becomes a lightning rod...it is awesome. Force breach is anything but awesome. It is pathetic. Ive heard it called the egg shell animation. Again, that inspires jokes and ridicule. And BW wonders why it has a faction imbalance on virtually every server....

 

Speaking of jokes...Force Lift is a joke...If you just lift me in the air and leave me there, Im going to shoot your @##. The Sith version with the whirlwind and the lightning in it is infinitely cooler and more powerful looking.

 

Lightning versus pebbles...no contest. I have seen multiple people posting in this forum that they like the pebbles because they think it is a way to EMBARASS their enemy...because death by pebbles is so ridiculous. Im not making that up. Surely people can figure out that such a testimonal is NOT what you want for the most recognizable, if not iconic warrior class in all of scifi...jedi skills are not so ridiculous that people are ashamed to die from them...also, I can kill a mob with lightning and it will still spasm and twitch on the ground. That is just plain fun. Consulars have NOTHING like that...no little added wow factor. Just more rocks. And junk.

 

Crushing darkness vs mind crush..again no contest, the sith side animation looks much better.

 

Kinetic Ward....the magic circle of rocks...this one is just over the top ridiculous. More magic rocks, out of nowhere, and when you run the circle of rocks lags...the Sith version is INFINITELY better.

 

To the OP...

 

Forcequake has its problems. First off, when you are in mass pvp, with multiple sages, you have no way to know which sage is quaking where. I proposed combining chunk a clunker with force quake, in a way, so the sage is hurling debris into the kill zone, at least that way you can tell who is doing what.

 

Jedi are NOT shamans...but some bonehead(s) at BW ran out of imagination and/or inspiration and decided jedi = rocks, pebbles, and junk, in a game where the other classes have missiles, blasters, autocannons, flamethrowers and lightning. That is pretty much the definition of a coolness gap.

Edited March 14, 2012 by Dyvim

[WinterWraith]

I can't stand the purple lightning spam myself. I'm fine with project and telekinetic throw.

[WoruulKeei]

Just so far as the lack of droid junkyards comment, did you play KOTOR 1&2? For the planets in those games as well as this one when your character cut his way through the planet did you ever stop to pick up the droids you destroyed? No? So now I guess we know where the droids come from.

[BBQedGamer]

I just wish project were a bit more varied. I'd love to see a kitchen sink, a Caddy Coup de Ville, a fish tank (with fish), or a piano.

 

Of course these would need to be the Star Wars versions of such, like a Nalgaron or a speeder. Not sure what a "sink" would look like.

 

Never underestimate the power of the dark...err...the weight of a really large safe (can't slice 'dis)!

[HearingGirl]

I don't mind the rock throwing though, I do think it is funny when I am on a ship and pull a rock out of the hull...or a droid out of the hull.

 

Is it me though I think my range on the Rock Hurling range is dwindeling...does it get better. Is it a bug?

[Dyvim]

Just so far as the lack of droid junkyards comment, did you play KOTOR 1&2? For the planets in those games as well as this one when your character cut his way through the planet did you ever stop to pick up the droids you destroyed? No? So now I guess we know where the droids come from.

 

Yeah, I played kotor 1 and 2. Several times. I killed a total of 126,719 droids. In beta alone, I chunked 137,259 scrap droid chassis. So, as anyone can see, your explanation simply does not hold water...lol

Edited March 15, 2012 by Dyvim

[Obeesh]

I just wish there wasn't a delay between when you click Project and when it hits the target.

 

Sorc has no delay between click and damage being done. Hmm.

[iCanUseTheForce]

Reading the books, Luke used the force to manipulate stuff all the time. Hurling rocks into oncoming blaster fire, placing/detonating grenades, hauling R2, etc. I like Project. TK Throw just needs more oomph, but the idea is sound imo.

[Dyvim]

Reading the books, Luke used the force to manipulate stuff all the time. Hurling rocks into oncoming blaster fire, placing/detonating grenades, hauling R2, etc. I like Project. TK Throw just needs more oomph, but the idea is sound imo.

 

Yes, jedi use telekinesis a great deal. But throwing objects at people is a specific application of telekinesis that jedi rarely do. Just like jedi use choke...rarely, and use a version of lightning....rarely. In the books, and EU, you can find an example of just about anything. But we are talking about the basics here. Not the outliers or the rare cases.

 

The point is jedi are not rabid junk throwers. Sith are, if anyone is. This is made crystal clear in the movies and the lore, ever since Vader on Bespin in ESB. They werent junk throwers in the the 4+ jedi knight series of games, they werent junk throwers in the kotor's, and they werent junk throwers in SWG...or really any other of the myriad star wars games that have been released over the last 20 years.

 

But in this game, at lvl 1, consulars throw junk with Project. Then at level 2, they get to throw pebbles with Throw (although both tooltips call the projectiles "debris" i.e., junk.) Those skills DEFINE and IDENTIFY the jedi consular classes. They are impacted by 10+ talents and are used in virtually every single combat rotation. Junk = jedi, Just like lightning does Inqs.

 

A skill up the telekinetics tree, used OCCASIONALLY, where jedi throw something would be different. The problem is that the two first learned, always used, basic ranged skills are junk throwers. Jedi have been transformed by BW into junk throwing shamans that magically conjure junk up out of the ground or out of thin air, in places where such junk could NOT LOGICALLY be found. A lot of people dont care about the lore or the integrity of the canon in the game...and some things are trivial, but this is the WHOLE LOOK AND FEEL of the jedi caster class. Its a big deal. The game would be MUCH better served and aligned with lore if the first skills consulars learned and used often were variations on saber throw or force push. Those skills have ALWAYS been used by jedi, frequently in lore and games, and are neutral in nature, vs, darkside junk throwing.

 

Yes constant junk throwing is ridiculous, and has made jedi into a joke IMO. Junk and rocks are boring and laughable in this game. I will keep playing Sith predominantly until it is changed. And I am far from the only one who thinks that the animations are a joke and make the rep faction undesireable. If you want to base a game in an IP, and milk it, get the F'ing basics right, please.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Dyvim

[MOAI]

I do not mind the rocks and peebles, but the pause is really annoying. It makes as much sense as using lightning while standing in water and not getting zapped. I just wish jedi had the ability like they did in Jedi Knight Jedi Academy called force absorb, Jedi abaorbed lightning in the movies (Yoda Ep III, Yoda Ep II, Obi-Wan Ep II through his saber).

[jbuschell]

I just sit there and lul when the pebbles of death hit me, I'm usually laughing hysterically and forget to los, so maybe its more effective than you think

[DraconianX]

This has all been solved in 1.2.

 

Unofficial Patch Notes.

 

In order to put it more in line with sorcerer abilities, Project now has a 1% chance to throw a Farmville tractor at it's target instead of a rock.

[Morvoldo]

I just wish jedi had the ability like they did in Jedi Knight Jedi Academy called force absorb, Jedi abaorbed lightning in the movies (Yoda Ep III, Yoda Ep II, Obi-Wan Ep II through his saber).

 

Nice i've basically said the same thing before, the sage sheild should be "Force Absorb" and i think consulars should get saber throw rather than Project or pebble throw (throwing a double bladed saber would be awsome, if shadow)and higher up level it hits more than 1 mob. and i've rolled a Sorc because its alot better than my shadow and was fed up with on my server empire being more populated. project is usless as of the time it takes to cast and hit.

why cant consulars have, force Push,pull with a saber move stuff like that rather than half the abilitys it has.

 

be awsome class then

 

the whole Empire classes hit and seem to do dmg so much better/quicker than republic classes ,pvp is owned by empire classes its anoying.

 

theres loads of things i would love changed but no time to go into detail now )

Edited March 15, 2012 by Morvoldo

[va_wanderer]

This has all been solved in 1.2.

 

Unofficial Patch Notes.

 

In order to put it more in line with sorcerer abilities, Project now has a 1% chance to throw a Farmville tractor at it's target instead of a rock.

 

Well, this tells us what they're using all the excess capacity for on my server....leasing it to Xynga. ^^

 

I wouldn't mind seeing them developing animations based on the environment you're in.

 

Ice chunks on Hoth, metal debris on Corsucant, etc etc.

 

It's a decent generic animation as it stands, though. Bonus points if occasional special areas have...er...easter eggs for Project as far as what gets dug up. Like, er. Tractors.

[Phuselage]

I agree that the Consular abilities lack oomph, but I think people need to open their eyes and admit that Light-sided force powers have never been "flashy" outside the inclusion of a lightsaber. With that said, I believe that Bioware has heard enough about the Consular abilities needing change and its not going to help to keep complaining. Rather, we should try and give suggestion to improve them. Just list the abilities you are unsatisfied with and try to propose a solution and not just bash or complain. We get it. I'm sure BW gets it. Let's move on.

 

Telekinetic Thow

- With the current animation, it just feels weak. If they were to keep the visuals the same, I would suggest adding a more hard-hitting sound effect to make it feel more damaging.

- If the animation were to change, then it would be nice for it to be similar to lightsaber throw, but have the saber continue to spin and attack the enemy for the duration. Here's an example from Devil May Cry,

Sadly, this may take away from Inf. Shadow's Clairvoyant Strike.

 

Force Breach

- Since this has to be ranged, it is hard for me to suggest a lot of the ideas I have. If it were to stay the same, I would have the shell appear as it does, but more prominent, and have the shattering of it be more dramatic, accompanied by the sound effect of a glass breaking or exploding.

- If your lightsaber could be incorporated into the attack, I would like the shell to appear as before, but have it shattered by a lightsaber animation.

- The ability could be turned into a short teleportation attack. This would be hell in PvP, but I'm just spitballing. It is a 10m ranged ability, so if used within that range, the shadow would teleport behind the target and with an accompanying backstab, shatter the shell around them. Also it would be cool if it had a chance to stun standard and strong enemies with a proc or something.

 

Keep the ideas going if you want. Just no more whining plz.

[YaanaOhtar]

Yes, jedi use telekinesis a great deal. But throwing objects at people is a specific application of telekinesis that jedi rarely do. Just like jedi use choke...rarely, and use a version of lightning....rarely. In the books, and EU, you can find an example of just about anything. But we are talking about the basics here. Not the outliers or the rare cases.

 

The point is jedi are not rabid junk throwers. Sith are, if anyone is. This is made crystal clear in the movies and the lore, ever since Vader on Bespin in ESB. They werent junk throwers in the the 4+ jedi knight series of games, they werent junk throwers in the kotor's, and they werent junk throwers in SWG...or really any other of the myriad star wars games that have been released over the last 20 years.

 

But in this game, at lvl 1, consulars throw junk with Project. Then at level 2, they get to throw pebbles with Throw (although both tooltips call the projectiles "debris" i.e., junk.) Those skills DEFINE and IDENTIFY the jedi consular classes. They are impacted by 10+ talents and are used in virtually every single combat rotation. Junk = jedi, Just like lightning does Inqs.

 

A skill up the telekinetics tree, used OCCASIONALLY, where jedi throw something would be different. The problem is that the two first learned, always used, basic ranged skills are junk throwers. Jedi have been transformed by BW into junk throwing shamans that magically conjure junk up out of the ground or out of thin air, in places where such junk could NOT LOGICALLY be found. A lot of people dont care about the lore or the integrity of the canon in the game...and some things are trivial, but this is the WHOLE LOOK AND FEEL of the jedi caster class. Its a big deal. The game would be MUCH better served and aligned with lore if the first skills consulars learned and used often were variations on saber throw or force push. Those skills have ALWAYS been used by jedi, frequently in lore and games, and are neutral in nature, vs, darkside junk throwing.

 

Yes constant junk throwing is ridiculous, and has made jedi into a joke IMO. Junk and rocks are boring and laughable in this game. I will keep playing Sith predominantly until it is changed. And I am far from the only one who thinks that the animations are a joke and make the rep faction undesireable. If you want to base a game in an IP, and milk it, get the F'ing basics right, please.

 

You cant complain. Most jedi in movies are Knight not consular. And the telekinesis ability is for any Force user, jedi dont use choke or throwing chunk cause it's aggressive. Even lightning any force user can use it - Luke for example - and similar to the above jedi dont use it cause it's aggressive. In fact most of their ability i known of are all about telekinesis. So to stick with the lore i dont think they can make anything better unlike magic.

 

People chose Imp cause it's more fun to play them. You have bounty hunter, seriously Boba Fett is so cool and the description of the jobs is cool too, Trooper ? common they are just soldiers, nothing special. Imperial Agent , secret agent of the Empire to corrupt and assassinate people, compare with smuggler ? You go around smuggling stuff ? no contest there. And we have the Sith tough bad-*** guys bring terror to everyone compare with Jedi peaceful diplomatic. See their descriptions are more interesting for majority of player only a few fans would play republic.

[Dyvim]

I agree that the Consular abilities lack oomph, but I think people need to open their eyes and admit that Light-sided force powers have never been "flashy" outside the inclusion of a lightsaber. With that said, I believe that Bioware has heard enough about the Consular abilities needing change and its not going to help to keep complaining. Rather, we should try and give suggestion to improve them....

 

Keep the ideas going if you want. Just no more whining plz.

 

 

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=29235

 

50 page thread. Got derailed at the end by some trolls, but there were alot of good ideas in it. If you were in beta, build after build multiple posts by multiple players asking for changes to the project and throw animations were a constant. The ideas presented were legion...but mainly people just wanted them changed.

 

Real quick:

 

Project - replace with a saber throw...as mentioned above, would look awesome for Shadows...and finally give their animations a little oomph and something better on par with what Sins have...

 

-or-

 

Switch the project and disturbance anis....disturbance works in any environment, can easily be made insta cast with a tweak to the casting motion to avoid project delay, and is a version of force push...most jedi ranged skills are typically, in lore, based off of force push. It has ALWAYS been neutral and is used MANY times by jedi in the movies, particularly Yoda...who also uses a saber throw in the movies....Also, this would keep chunk a clunker in the game for those who like it, and give it the activation timer it DESPERATELY needs to begin to be credible. And making it environmentally aware would be nice too.

 

 

 

Throw - Change it out with a channeled, directed force shockwave effect. In the spirit of what Satele uses againts Malgus. Something that is based off of the force push idea, but looks POWERFUL...a little excerpt from the official wiki below to back up what I am talking about...basically I am think of a directed bomb blast effect, with pressure and heat differentials, created by the force, which makes sense, because they later learn force shockwave, an aoe version, that is described in the wiki as a more difficult skill to master....so they would learn to direct the shockwaves in a miore limited cone first...which would be worthy of competing in a game where other classes have lightning, blasters, missiles, flamethrowers, autocannons, etc. Pebbles are just unspeakably lame....

 

Force Push

 

At more powerful levels, Force Push was the ability to create a telekinetic impulse via the Force, launching a concussive burst of pressurized air-not unlike the blast of an archaic 'pipe bomb'-that would impact a target with enough force to knock it over, launch it into the air, or even (particularly in the case of fragile materials such as ceramics) shatter it into pieces. The greater the user's telekinetic aptitude, the larger the pressure differential, and thus the stronger the effect and the heavier the target. With practice, a skilled Force user could increase the range and arc of the blast without lowering the average kinetic energy, creating a blanketed wave instead of a focused impulse. Truly gifted practitioners could generate a concussive blast that would radiate from them for dozens of meters in all directions, detonating with the force of a conventional explosive.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Dyvim