1.2 = best pvp gear for free, and no reason to play rated. people are quitting

[Ainew]

So BW can't make cool titles, mounts, or dyes for the customer armors even. There is a **** ton of crap you can get that has nothing to do with the crit customs and still says you get ultimate pwnage. Which I'll grant you was a stupid mistake how they've done the itemization in that regard.

 

As for having the skill to get the gear, that's half the moronic issue. It takes no skill at all to get the gear, its simply time played. Depending on how they work rated WZ's that -MIGHT- change, but I doubt it.

 

Maybe you are too short sighted or dim witted to realize, but as it is even having your precious stat progression its meaningless for that very fact. Anyone with no life -AND- no skill can have the exact same gear you have, so its 100% completely pointless to tout that gear as some sort of passage because it's meaningless. All it does for you is give you a stat advantage. No one with an ounce of sense looks at a BM player and thinks, 'wow they are good' or 'they put lots of hard work into that', well other then you're own deluded mind perhaps.

 

 

So you are saying the stats don't matter. So why can't we keep them exactly ? Oh because you don't have the same amount of time so everyone should only be able to play at your level

 

Because people who work harder should be rewarded if you are so hardon for skill>gear than that must mean you have the skill to get the gear. You seem to think that its gear holding people back what most of you will not accept or god forbid consider that you are the problem and that's why you can't win.

 

 

 

I'll edit this into my later post and tell you what seem to think anyone who wants gear (with stat progression) must be thinking. I want the 5% advantage so I can absolutely and I mean utterly 100% dominate and crush anyone who doesn't have the 5% advantage into the ground I just want them to throw their computer out the window because they lost and I want them to know it was because they have 5% less stats than me and I'm superior at a video game solely based on the 5% stat advantage.

 

I want better stats for being a better player I'm an elitist who wants to crush everyone not to show a difference between bad/good players

[Zarthran]

I think both sides are misunderstanding each other a bit. In fact, I think both sides are making straw-man arguments, in the end leading nowhere. So let's clear a few things up, assuming I've understood them correctly:

 

• The ones who want gear progression are not neccessarily bad players who need the gear advantage in order to win. They are players who have spent much time grinding to get the best gear, and don't want their effort to be for nothing, or they feel that they want a goal to work towards that will actually give them some benefit that isn't purely cosmetic.
  
• The ones who don't want gear progression aren't neccessarily bad players either. They are players who enjoy the PvP itself, and prefer to have fair fights on even grounds, rather than playing for the rewards. These people feel that it's annoying that they have to put lots of time into grinding gear before they get on even grounds and can start actually enjoying PvP.
  
• The former kind of players are the ones who PvP so they can get gear. The latter kind are the ones who get gear so they can PvP. It's simply two different mindsets, both being valid points of view. Personally, I'm of the latter kind, but I acknowledge that there are people of the former kind as well.
  
• Battlemaster gear only depends on time invested. It's true that a skilled player might gain slightly more benefit through winning often, but that benefit still pales in comparison to how much time needs to be spent. It's very true that those who put much effort into it will get the best gear, but in this case, that effort is in the form of playing a lot, and not very much about how well you play.
  
• Skill does increase over time, but how much depends on the individual player. Two players who have played for an equally long time by no means need to be equally skilled. Some players are simply fast learners, or have skills from other games they have played which translate into this game as well. I should know, I am both. You can't assume that somebody with a higer valor rank who has spent a lot more time playing than someone else is automatically a more skilled player.
  

 

I consider myself a good player. Certainly not the best, but definitely not the worst either. As things happen to be, my life doesn't really allow me to play more than a few hours on weekdays. Because of this, I struggled to get my dailies done in time to get enough sleep, my valor was far lower than everybody else's, and my gear was worse. The grind was frustrating, annoying and boring; I couldn't enjoy PvP because I had to always make sure to get the maximum benefit out of everything I did. Sure, I could kill players with better gear than me; I often did. But it annoyed me that I had to work much harder and play much better to win a fight against players who were worse than me, simply because I didn't have as much time to farm gear.

 

I eventually got my gear and became a battlemaster too. But it took much of the enjoyment out of PvP for me. I feel that if there's going to be gear progression in PvP, it should be based on how well you play, not how much or how often. And even then, I'd prefer the top tier gear to be purely cosmetic. I'm in it for the challenge anyway, so why would I want an unfair advantage against those who have played less than me?

[Ainew]

I think both sides are misunderstanding each other a bit. In fact, I think both sides are making straw-man arguments, in the end leading nowhere. So let's clear a few things up, assuming I've understood them correctly:

 

• The ones who want gear progression are not neccessarily bad players who need the gear advantage in order to win. They are players who have spent much time grinding to get the best gear, and don't want their effort to be for nothing, or they feel that they want a goal to work towards that will actually give them some benefit that isn't purely cosmetic.
  
• The ones who don't want gear progression aren't neccessarily bad players either. They are players who enjoy the PvP itself, and prefer to have fair fights on even grounds, rather than playing for the rewards. These people feel that it's annoying that they have to put lots of time into grinding gear before they get on even grounds and can start actually enjoying PvP.
  
• The former kind of players are the ones who PvP so they can get gear. The latter kind are the ones who get gear so they can PvP. It's simply two different mindsets, both being valid points of view. Personally, I'm of the latter kind, but I acknowledge that there are people of the former kind as well.
  
• Battlemaster gear only depends on time invested. It's true that a skilled player might gain slightly more benefit through winning often, but that benefit still pales in comparison to how much time needs to be spent. It's very true that those who put much effort into it will get the best gear, but in this case, that effort is in the form of playing a lot, and not very much about how well you play.
  
• Skill does increase over time, but how much depends on the individual player. Two players who have played for an equally long time by no means need to be equally skilled. Some players are simply fast learners, or have skills from other games they have played which translate into this game as well. I should know, I am both. You can't assume that somebody with a higer valor rank who has spent a lot more time playing than someone else is automatically a more skilled player.
  

 

I consider myself a good player. Certainly not the best, but definitely not the worst either. As things happen to be, my life doesn't really allow me to play more than a few hours on weekdays. Because of this, I struggled to get my dailies done in time to get enough sleep, my valor was far lower than everybody else's, and my gear was worse. The grind was frustrating, annoying and boring; I couldn't enjoy PvP because I had to always make sure to get the maximum benefit out of everything I did. Sure, I could kill players with better gear than me; I often did. But it annoyed me that I had to work much harder and play much better to win a fight against players who were worse than me, simply because I didn't have as much time to farm gear.

 

I eventually got my gear and became a battlemaster too. But it took much of the enjoyment out of PvP for me. I feel that if there's going to be gear progression in PvP, it should be based on how well you play, not how much or how often. And even then, I'd prefer the top tier gear to be purely cosmetic. I'm in it for the challenge anyway, so why would I want an unfair advantage against those who have played less than me?

 

I don't want the current system changes. I'm saying with the new ranked warzones we should have slightly better gear for much better players.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Ainew

[Zarthran]

I don't want the current system changes. I'm saying with the new ranked warzones we should have slightly better gear for much better players.

 

What's your definition of "better"? More players killed? More fights won? Higher win/loss ratio?

[MartyrLXXVII]

So you are saying the stats don't matter. So why can't we keep them exactly ? Oh because you don't have the same amount of time so everyone should only be able to play at your level

 

I told you your -STAT PROGRESSION- is meaningless because anyone that plays too much get is. So who cares about the progression when it doesn't do anything for you except give you a stat advantage.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Ellvaan
Insulting other members

[MartyrLXXVII]

What's your definition of "better"? More players killed? More fights won? Higher win/loss ratio?

 

This question is why I don't expect to rated WZs to have any more baring on skilled players vs players that just have far too much time on their hands actually. But slightly off topic.

[Vaipyr]

 

Because people who work harder should be rewarded

 

You're right. And since grinding gear involves no work, or effort for that matter, only free time. Lack of free time indicates someone working hard in RL areas (you know, that are actually work) such as family, job, etc. Therefore the people with the least amount of time to grind should be rewarded with better gear. After all the people with a ton of free time obviously aren't doing anything productive with their life or working hard at all.

[iceperson]

What's your definition of "better"? More players killed? More fights won? Higher win/loss ratio?

 

the players with the most /played time in a warzone (AKA valor) silly...

[Sagaboy]

So you don't want to work hard for your gear? I believe you. You want to face roll pugs, newbs and people with worse gear to make your self feel good. Well I got news for you. Those pug newbs with worse gear have been working harder for their gear so far and now that you got news that you may actually have to face a more equal challenge you can't handle it?

 

Everyone keeps saying this. It's like people believe that gear is the only factor that determined success or not. I keep reading on and on and apparently if the majority of people who have gear (thus have PvP'ed a long time and gotten experience whether they want to or not) suddenly were stripped of gear their ability to kill people would magically go away?

 

I started a sniper after BM'ing a commando. I played PVP and and class quests exclusively while leveling. That means that for much of my time leveling I was heavily under geared in PvP. I still had no trouble getting kills or contributing to the success/failure of a WZ.

 

It is not the news of people getting equal or better gear that has me unsubbing. It is the news that a previously established set of grind guidelines has been stamped "null and void." Like it or not I put in the time and got BM status. It was fun sometimes, other times it was less than fun. Having reached a high valor rank Bioware now comes and says..."well that grind is meaningless but hey at least you can be the leader of WZ ops." OH JOY!!!!

 

Let me ask you all. Do you believe this change is fair for a skilled and heavily geared player? I am not even referring to myself. Just in general, is this fair to a person of adequate skill, who has run the hampster wheel to acquire gear and V rank 60+ mount - to now be told V rank means jack now. Start at the beginning, find dedicated WZ groups, and get all new gear. Said person is just supposed to be okay with that? Seriously?

 

It's okay though. The same PvP'ers that actually challenge/destroy you in WZs (thus giving you good competition) won't be around and you all can wallow in the mediocrity of less challenging PvP. That's all you really want anyway. Me I like having a difficult opponent with some degree of leverage over me. It makes his/her defeat that much more satisfying.

[Zarthran]

I'd be okay with higher rating giving better gear, even though I feel it would be kind of pointless. As long as it isn't quantity over quality like it is now, I can live with it.

[MartyrLXXVII]

You're right. And since grinding gear involves no work, or effort for that matter, only free time. Lack of free time indicates someone working hard in RL areas (you know, that are actually work) such as family, job, etc. Therefore the people with the least amount of time to grind should be rewarded with better gear. After all the people with a ton of free time obviously aren't doing anything productive with their life or working hard at all.

 

lol.. nice

[Zyillo]

20.) All pvp guilds are quitting because one cry baby on the forums says so.

 

More made up **** masqurading as facts at 11.

 

My guild is quitting for the same reason. We are <Pompous> on the Helm of Graush server. Anyone Empire or Republic on our server can attest to playing with us gets you wins. We're amazing and we win games.

 

None of us have logged in for the last 2 weeks, because we're aware of how poor the future of the PvP community looks.

[Ainew]

I told you your -STAT PROGRESSION- is meaningless because anyone that plays too much get is. So who cares about the progression when it doesn't do anything for you except give you a stat advantage.

 

 

I would and did beat battlemaster players in champion gear or kited them easily as a healer. Most of the players who spend that much time are better than people who talk about "skill>gear" on the forums and play less. People want to say there should be no advantage because those people think the miniscule advantage that currently exist is causing them to lose. You will never admit that it might perhaps be your skill that is lower than the BM's. I seriously doubt many 1 on 1 battles are decided simply because of a slight expertise advantage.

 

I would define "better" as whoever wins more with the next system. How else would you even decide it you can't compare every fight/kill lol

Edited March 11, 2012 by Ellvaan
Quoted removed content

[MartyrLXXVII]

It's okay though. The same PvP'ers that actually challenge/destroy you in WZs (thus giving you good competition) won't be around and you all can wallow in the mediocrity of less challenging PvP. That's all you really want anyway. Me I like having a difficult opponent with some degree of leverage over me. It makes his/her defeat that much more satisfying.

 

Oh really? So we can assume then that you only play in Cent or Champ gear correct? I mean if you like facing people that have an advantage over you then you would never wear BM because no one would ever have an advantage over you.

 

So just how believable is this statement?

[Zyillo]

You can't compare PvE and PvP..

 

Wrong answer.

 

 

-WHY- isn't cosmetic gear good enough, why must it have stats to be worth anything to you?

 

Wrong question.

[AKfourtyseven]

 

I eventually got my gear and became a battlemaster too. But it took much of the enjoyment out of PvP for me. I feel that if there's going to be gear progression in PvP, it should be based on how well you play, not how much or how often. And even then, I'd prefer the top tier gear to be purely cosmetic. I'm in it for the challenge anyway, so why would I want an unfair advantage against those who have played less than me?

 

 

The issue is what criterion do you use to judge who is a "better player" than the other. The game attempted to use medals and all that happened is people played worse, because they focused on medals rather than actually helping the team to win.

 

I would argue there is almost no feasible way the game can actually reward players based on how well they played because its not something scientifically measurable in PvP which is why PvP is superior to PvE where you have static encounters.

 

Its also possible that the reason there is no higher tier is because this is preseason and they want to have everyone start the real rated on the same level, with the t1 rated gear and then we may see extra rewards at that time.

 

We simply dont know.

[Ainew]

Oh really? So we can assume then that you only play in Cent or Champ gear correct? I mean if you like facing people that have an advantage over you then you would never wear BM because no one would ever have an advantage over you.

 

So just how believable is this statement?

 

Actually when I play solo I use my slave girl outfit with old champion mods and still win survive most BM with 200 less expertise

[iceperson]

my guild is quitting for the same reason. We are <pompous> on the helm of graush server. Anyone empire or republic on our server can attest to playing with us gets you wins. We're amazing and we win games.

 

None of us have logged in for the last 2 weeks, because we're aware of how poor the future of the pvp community looks.

 

noc..

[Zarthran]

I would and did beat battlemaster players in champion gear or kited them easily as a healer. Most of the players who spend that much time are better than people who talk about "skill>gear" on the forums and play less. People want to say there should be no advantage because those people think the miniscule advantage that currently exist is causing them to lose. You will never admit that it might perhaps be your skill that is lower than the BM's. I seriously doubt many 1 on 1 battles are decided simply because of a slight expertise advantage.

 

I would define "better" as whoever wins more with the next system. How else would you even decide it you can't compare every fight/kill lol

 

Well, with the current system, the "better" player is the one who has played more, which, like stated in my earlier post, simply can't be assumed to be the case. Sure, the skilled player can still win, but why should the skilled player have worse gear than the players who is less skilled, just because the less skilled player spends more time playing? (Granted, under the new system, this wouldn't be the case.)

[Ainew]

Well, with the current system, the "better" player is the one who has played more, which, like stated in my earlier post, simply can't be assumed to be the case. Sure, the skilled player can still win, but why should the skilled player have worse gear than the players who is less skilled, just because the less skilled player spends more time playing? (Granted, under the new system, this wouldn't be the case.)

 

The same reason people in pve have to get more gear to clear a boss. Because this is an mmorpg. There are some enrage timers you won't meet simply because you don't have enough gear. Do you see pve players complaining that pve should be purely based on skill?

Edited March 11, 2012 by Ainew

[MartyrLXXVII]

I would and did beat battlemaster players in champion gear or kited them easily as a healer. Most of the players who spend that much time are better than people who talk about "skill>gear" on the forums and play less. People want to say there should be no advantage because those people think the miniscule advantage that currently exist is causing them to lose. You will never admit that it might perhaps be your skill that is lower than the BM's. I seriously doubt many 1 on 1 battles are decided simply because of a slight expertise advantage.

 

I would define "better" as whoever wins more with the next system. How else would you even decide it you can't compare every fight/kill lol

 

First, as for whats better... the best way to do it would be to have a weighted scoring system based on the scoreboard stats, with the most important being objective points. But thats too complicated so BW will likely just go off of W/L which is lame and boring. But oh well.

 

Anyway... ooh you beat a baddie that earned his BM through time played. That's a shocker, I'm sure that happens ALL the time. That just reinforces what I'm saying about the the reasoning you value the progression system as stupid since it does nothing to show others -YOU- are a good player because you have it.

 

As for your doubts about stats altering a fight. People of equal skill yes it will obviously matter. Especially when the higher tier gear gives both damage increases with expertise and main stat AND damage reduction. So it's not really hard to have considerably different levels of damage going around these 'miniscule' stat differences.

 

Honestly its just baffling to me why people have to cling to these advantages so badly. Especially when by their own words they think its so small it makes no difference. Well if its so damn minor and pointless then why do you even want them?!

[Zarthran]

The same reason people in pve have to get more gear to clear a boss. Because this is an mmorpg. There are some enrage timers you won't meet simply because you don't have enough gear. Do you see pve players complaining that pve should be purely based on skill?

 

I'm not sure that comparison holds up. Your team's skill also plays a role in how easily you defeat bosses, and as such, how quickly you can farm gear as well. So sure, there might be obstacles that can't be overcome without gear, but those obstacles can still be overcome more quickly by skilled players.

[Ainew]

First, as for whats better... the best way to do it would be to have a weighted scoring system based on the scoreboard stats, with the most important being objective points. But thats too complicated so BW will likely just go off of W/L which is lame and boring. But oh well.

 

Anyway... ooh you beat a baddie that earned his BM through time played. That's a shocker, I'm sure that happens ALL the time. That just reinforces what I'm saying about the the reasoning you value the progression system as stupid since it does nothing to show others -YOU- are a good player because you have it.

 

As for your doubts about stats altering a fight. People of equal skill yes it will obviously matter. Especially when the higher tier gear gives both damage increases with expertise and main stat AND damage reduction. So it's not really hard to have considerably different levels of damage going around these 'miniscule' stat differences.

 

Honestly its just baffling to me why people have to cling to these advantages so badly. Especially when by their own words they think its so small it makes no difference. Well if its so damn minor and pointless then why do you even want them?!

 

Because as it stands in 1.2 even the worst of players will have the same gear. Even if you don't believe it that is a turn off for a lot of top tier pvp players.

 

 

"Anyway... ooh you beat a baddie that earned his BM through time played."

 

How does time played factor into me beating battlemasters in a skimpy orange outfit with 200 less expertise and champ mods. If I can do that you can do it wearing 50 less expertise. You seem to think a majority of battlemaster or higher players are bad and only have time played as the advantage.

 

My entire point is even now gear barely makes a difference so at least let us have a slight advantage for being slightly better.

Edited March 11, 2012 by Ainew

[Dego_Locc]

I don't PVE often, I don't have the time to put into it, and it's boring to me, but I would like PVE gear too pls, the newest and leetest of course.

 

Where is my PVE vendor who I can by the new gear off of without working for it in nightmare mods. As a PVP player, where is MY PVE gear crutch? Since the casual PVE'ers get a PVP gear crutch that they can use as fresh 50's, I would like the PVE equivalent.

 

 

 

Oh wait.....

Edited March 11, 2012 by Dego_Locc

[MartyrLXXVII]

The same reason people in pve have to get more gear to clear a boss. Because this is an mmorpg. There are some enrage timers you won't meet simply because you don't have enough gear. Do you see pve players complaining that pve should be purely based on skill?

 

Exactly why you can't compare PVE and PVP... the only way to make PVE challenging is to set the bosses so they will totally roll a group unless they have X classes and Y stats. Even then, knowing to beat them is just knowing the hardcoding of what they do and exactly when they do it in the fight. Thats just trial and error. The stat progression is just there because they have to make newer bosses harder so you have to keep gearing up to beat harder bosses.

 

In PVP you aren't facing a pre-scripted enemy, you don't know what they will do, you can have a pretty good idea with knowledge of the enemy class, but fighting another player is full of variables, and that is where the challenge comes from. Not from a new boss with more HP and damage then the last boss.