Why are people so desperate for threat meters?

[ferroz]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. There already is a threat meter in this game. Tank fights boss. Boss turns and smacks DPS. It's a pretty !@#$ obvious clue that the tank lost hate.

No, that's not true at all. There are lots of reasons why that happens that have nothing to do with the tank losing hate.

 

 

A good tank always has their taunt on CD and available for use.

This is contradictory; if it's on cooldown, it's not available for use.

 

And based on a recent post, taunt is by far the tank's single biggest threat generator, especially late in the fight... so it's well worth it to use it heavily.

 

As for the rest that I didn't respond directly to: "guess" != "know"

Edited March 15, 2012 by ferroz

[ferroz]

Yes. That would make game easier. Game already is too easy. Hence threat meters would make game worse.

Actually it lets them make the game harder... making people walk a finer line on threat.

[Dayln]

Threat IS the game in grouping

 

Having a threat meter in the game takes away what the game is.

 

It is like having a computer tell you what your next chess move should be when you are playing chess, you might as well not even be there.

 

No threat meters ( or any other meters for that matter )

 

SWTOR is easy enough, and if you need meters like these to play a game as easy as this one, then maybe you should go hone your skills on Hello Kitty on-line or something till you are ready for this game.

[HellFlame]

Threat IS the game in grouping

 

Having a threat meter in the game takes away what the game is.

 

It is like having a computer tell you what your next chess move should be when you are playing chess, you might as well not even be there.

 

No threat meters ( or any other meters for that matter )

 

SWTOR is easy enough, and if you need meters like these to play a game as easy as this one, then maybe you should go hone your skills on Hello Kitty on-line or something till you are ready for this game.

 

Did you ever read the post above you guess not.

 

If you guys would think about it one minute you would realize how stupid it is to say something against threat & dps meters and combat log... but its okay you never gonna realize that.

[Dayln]

I know exactly how stupid it is to ask for threat meters ( or dps meters for that matter ) I have been involved in these games longer than there have been graphics

 

I don’t want to play a spreadsheet

 

I don’t want this game to become a clone war ( everyone has to do exactly this and this and this )

 

Threat meters are bad, they always have been, exactly the same as a computer telling you what chess move to make next.

 

If you really really need them, then campaign for a Nerf server for folks that really need them.

[HellFlame]

I know exactly how stupid it is to ask for threat meters ( or dps meters for that matter ) I have been involved in these games longer than there have been graphics

 

I don’t want to play a spreadsheet

 

I don’t want this game to become a clone war ( everyone has to do exactly this and this and this )

 

Threat meters are bad, they always have been, exactly the same as a computer telling you what chess move to make next.

 

If you really really need them, then campaign for a Nerf server for folks that really need them.

 

On paper maybe, but not inside the game. With good mechanics theres never gonna be a at 0.0232 seconds you do that ._. but its ok...

 

EDIT: Oh and if there would a such a server with BETTER & HARDER content due to better mechanics of the bosses and i would be away from ppl like u, AWESOME.

Edited March 15, 2012 by HellFlame

[Dayln]

If you want to nerf the game this much... then ask for a nerf server.

 

Dont have every server dumbed down to this level.

 

or go play an easier game

[HellFlame]

If you want to nerf the game this much... then ask for a nerf server.

 

Dont have every server dumbed down to this level.

 

or go play an easier game

 

Ok, lets explain it slowly to you. Threat & DPS meters allow the game designers to actually balance the content so it can be harder. We are all humans and not robots so we basically all make mistakes and its not do exactly that in that order.no you can not say because we got threat & dps meters this game becomes easier... it gets better, but maybe in your own world with your laws it may not be so.

 

That people dont realize by now that thread & dps meters are actually there to allow them to improve THEIR skills rather than telling ppl that they suck is because some people (maybe like you) who actually want those EASY content, because they get the best gear in a mmo once in their life or whatever other reason.

Edited March 15, 2012 by HellFlame

[Esproc]

I understand that. I'm trying to explain to you that scientifically verifiable, empirical data is always preferable to a gut-feeling approach for anyone who values accuracy of results.

 

 

 

The baseball analogy is a good one and actually supports my point. Let's take the movie "moneyball." That movie is about the use of "saber metrics," real, hard facts and statistics, to predict how effective a player will be in a team. Prior to that innovation, team managers used their gutfeelings and estimated generically. With the use of sabermetrics, the Oakland A's went from being mediocre to winning 20 consecutive games even after losing their star players.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moneyball

 

Having and using statistics is clearly and significantly better for real results than just going with gut-feelings. That's not debatable. It's simple math and how the fundamental laws of the universe work.

 

What I hear you saying is that you prefer things to be more unpredictable, even if that results in lower performance or worse results. Which is not the same thing as "i know my character and am thus more skilled, even though I can't accurately measure that skill."

 

So you watched a movie and took it all in and now know all about it?

 

Sabermetrics is concerned both with determining the value of a player or team in current or past seasons and with attempting to predict the value of a player or team in the future. Many areas of study are still in development, specifically in the area of performance measurement.

 

So it's still attempted predictions of value in the future, and still under development, specifically in the areas of performance measurement.

 

Not exactly defined as definite numbers of exactitude. Plenty of leeway for being wrong in there.

 

You want meters to show you everything with no guess work or reason to learn the utmost abilities of your characters for yourself.

[Esproc]

Ok, lets explain it slowly to you. Threat & DPS meters allow the game designers to actually balance the content so it can be harder. We are all humans and not robots so we basically all make mistakes and its not do exactly that in that order.no you can not say because we got threat & dps meters this game becomes easier... it gets better, but maybe in your own world with your laws it may not be so.

 

That people dont realize by now that thread & dps meters are actually there to allow them to improve THEIR skills rather than telling ppl that they suck is because some people (maybe like you) who actually want those EASY content, because they get the best gear in a mmo once in their life or whatever other reason.

 

So you want the same tools that the designers use to balance the content and make it harder, so that you can use them to beat it easier?

 

Then you claim it is for improving your skills, when in actuality it is to allow you to do the opposite, to rely upon something else to do what you yourself do not wish to learn?

 

I think the previous poster you were referring to had it right. Perhaps you do need another type of faceroll server that allows all of these mods/meters.

[Dayln]

Not sure I can explain it slowly enough for you

 

Threat and damage meters tell ( or indicate to ) the players what to do when, because they cannot figure out what a good course of action should be at this point.

 

People that need these things in order to be successful are already having difficulty playing a game that is not all that difficult for the rest of us, don’t even pretend you want them to make harder content but then dumb it down with these meters, you are obviously failing now, you cannot convince me you want it more difficult while at the same time asking them to dumb the game down this much.

 

They take away the entire point of the game.

 

If you want a game dumbed down that much, then go play a game more your own speed, or campaign for a Nerf server, but don’t ruin the play for the rest of us because you are having such difficulty being successful

[HellFlame]

Not sure I can explain it slowly enough for you

 

Threat and damage meters tell ( or indicate to ) the players what to do when, because they cannot figure out what a good course of action should be at this point.

 

People that need these things in order to be successful are already having difficulty playing a game that is not all that difficult for the rest of us, don’t even pretend you want them to make harder content but then dumb it down with these meters, you are obviously failing now, you cannot convince me you want it more difficult while at the same time asking them to dumb the game down this much.

 

They take away the entire point of the game.

 

If you want a game dumbed down that much, then go play a game more your own speed, or campaign for a Nerf server, but don’t ruin the play for the rest of us because you are having such difficulty being successful

 

LOL. Im more successfull that you will ever be but its okay. No it does not take away the entire point of the game, but explaining to people like you is a waste of time.

[Dayln]

I doubt it or you would not be asking for the game to be dumbed down, you could hire a more successful player to stand over your shoulder and make suggestions to assist you, but no one is going to call you a chess champion ( for example ) if you have a computer telling you which move to make next.

[dcgregorya]

Ok, lets explain it slowly to you. Threat & DPS meters allow the game designers to actually balance the content so it can be harder. We are all humans and not robots so we basically all make mistakes and its not do exactly that in that order.no you can not say because we got threat & dps meters this game becomes easier... it gets better, but maybe in your own world with your laws it may not be so.

 

That people dont realize by now that thread & dps meters are actually there to allow them to improve THEIR skills rather than telling ppl that they suck is because some people (maybe like you) who actually want those EASY content, because they get the best gear in a mmo once in their life or whatever other reason.

 

They do not improve your skill at all, they remove the need to have any skill. It's like drawing by tracing. You're not an artist just tracing the outline, nor are you skilled for popping your threat reset when a chart tells you to. There has never been a raid I've run with threat meters, heal bots and DPS meters that has been more difficult or caused more wipes than ones without - this whole "we want tthem to make the content harder" argument is pure fantasy.

Edited March 15, 2012 by dcgregorya

[Dayln]

Yes, they take away all skill, all ability, worse give the false impression of skill where there is none at all, and even worse put too much attention on a single aspect of a good group mate to the exclusion of everything else that player could be doing to help make the group successful.

 

You end up with people that don’t have the first clue how to play a class well ( or at all in some cases ) telling others how they should play theirs, and then people bragging after an unnecessary group wipe about just how high their DPS got that time when they could have been doing things that could have made the encounter successful.

 

If you need an easier game, go play an easier game, but don’t dumb this one down.

[Snoodmaster]

A well designed battle is difficult, but not impossible, and that includes being difficult for the tank. In a well balanced battle a -good- tank should, for example, barely be able to keep hate off the healer all the time, but at the expense of loosing hate occasionally to a DPS. An extremely excellent tank should be the only player capable of keeping full threat, all the time (other than threat independent attacks, threat wipes, etc., etc.), even from DPS.

 

I think part of it is that we have differing ideas of what the penalties for losing threat to a dps is. (talking about bosses here, trash is a different story) In my mind, losing threat to a dps means either that dps dies OR the entire raid wipes then and there. The skill there wouldn't be in pulling the boss back, but in managing to never fail at it. To keep your threat at optimum levels at all times, even while the dps is going all out, and to juggle it, gauging just how much threat you can put out versus how much survivability you want to have.

 

See, because the devs can't expect players to be warned when threat is likely to be pulled, they have to soften the effects of dps pulling aggro. Most bosses can pretty much be tanked by a dps for half a minute or more with proper CD usage. Worse, because the players don't have that warning zone buffer, threat is ridiculously easy to maintain right now. Just keep slapping taunt and you'll have constant threat forever. If there's a threat meter, they can set taunt to only give the tank 100% threat and expect the dps to watch their threat and stay under the tank at all times.

 

 

I can see how a threat meter can make DPS more enjoyable (it would not be my personal preference for the discussed reasons, but I can understand it), but as a tank it seems like it would make my job, my role, hell of a lot more boring. Why would I want that?

 

Personally, some of my most fun times as a tank in WoW was competing with my OT on the threat meter and swapping my pants out for dps pants to pump out the threat so the dps could burn the boss even faster. Made farming runs less boring actually.

[Dreary]

1999 to 2004, its called Everquest.

 

 

Stop being pampered teardrop children.

[Lythir]

So you've never had Bonethrasher attack someone else? Or seen Soa attack a dps? Without a threat meter, how do you tell the difference between a threat drop, an aggro pull and the boss targetting someone randomly?

 

Threat Drop - next ability to hit the boss will draw aggro. A big hint is when people who mainly use DoTs get aggro after this.

 

Random Targetting - if the healers or low DPS members get targetted often, it's random.

 

Aggro Pull - the idiot who wandered too close gets aggro, but it's easy to pull off again.

 

You really don't need a threat meter if people know how to play. Even in a fight where the off-tank needs to be 2nd on threat he can taunt (assuming taunt is ok, as it generally is now) and let the MT taunt it back - if he thinks he is dropping behind.

[Mosene]

OR his DPS is doing it right... detaunts after big dps drops....and you dont pull aggro unless the mechanic calls for it.

 

Granted if i WANTED to pull aggro it's pretty easy if im not gaurded: as a Tracerspammer i can spike like its cool and if his taunts are down... but then again that's not being a good dps.

 

Tracer build is not even the highest dps/threat in game.If marauders and sorcs don't pull aggro of tank you shouldn't also.Unless you have failtank.

[Blacksabbatical]

I can understand damage meters, it allows you to distinguish who's slacking, but personally i've never had a problem with DPS going all out on a fight from the second it starts.

 

I tank as a guardian, most DPS in our guild are full Rakata and they never pull agro off me. I just prioritise my high damage skills at the start and it's a breeze.

 

I could understand if future encounters had an agro drop which disabled the tanks, but for the current content there's no purpose in it.

 

I like to know where I stand as a tank I want to know my threat meters

[Stadulator]

I don't see any need for a threat meter. DPS logs so we can parse our dmg sure.

 

If DPS are firehosing and pulling aggro.. stop DPS'ing a sec and let the tank do his job.

If a mob switches mid fight due to mem wipe mechanic or such... stop DPS'ing a sec.

 

I get this point of view from having done years of raiding in EQ1 where there were no threat meters, the raids consisted of a huge amounts of people that had to coordinate 90% of their actions based on OBSERVATION.

 

And honestly, the raid mechanics in TOR are about as simple as it gets.

[Felioats]

I realize players get used to things that make the game easier, but that doesn't necessarily make them good features.

 

Things that remove thought from combat, in my opinion, are not good features.

 

For more than a decade, players in MMORPGs have been, through drawing on their experiences, able to gauge their threat and how far they can push it before getting agro.

 

World of Warcraft, the game that brought us threat meters, should never have allowed scripts in their UI mods. It opened the door to abuses such as this.

 

As a result, players let their brains and skills atrophy to the point that they think they need these crutches. Not only that, but because the meters might let people squeeze out a few more DPS with confidence, content designers have to balance encounters around the assumption that all players will be using them. This forces all of us to use them if we want to defeat content.

[Esproc]

Personally, some of my most fun times as a tank in WoW was competing with my OT on the threat meter and swapping my pants out for dps pants to pump out the threat so the dps could burn the boss even faster. Made farming runs less boring actually.

 

So in short you need meters to compete for ... what? And you need indicators to tell you when to do a specific move/taunt to get the best results for your contest with an OT.

 

Then the swapping out of leg armor for more dps/(threat?) to burn the boss for a farming run, snooze.

 

Play naked, then talk fun.

[Snoodmaster]

So in short you need meters to compete for ... what? And you need indicators to tell you when to do a specific move/taunt to get the best results for your contest with an OT.

 

Then the swapping out of leg armor for more dps/(threat?) to burn the boss for a farming run, snooze.

 

Play naked, then talk fun.

 

The person I responded to wondered how a threat meter can make tanking less boring in the way that a dps meter can spice things up for dps. I supplied a personal anecdote. Not sure exactly what your post is intended to convey or accomplish.

[BroadStreetBully]

The person I responded to wondered how a threat meter can make tanking less boring in the way that a dps meter can spice things up for dps. I supplied a personal anecdote. Not sure exactly what your post is intended to convey or accomplish.

 

Competing for top numbers on a threat meter isn't fun. That's sad. The point is to play the game and enjoy the content, not stare at a meter. Although, if you like reading meters, the police department or electric companies might have the perfect job for you.