The Problem With Legacy Logic

[CaptainBlackout]

"- Once you reach level 50 with a species, you can unlock that species to all classes"

 

We've been hearing that legacy will unlock new races for other classes. Until this point, however, we haven't heard that it requires a level 50 in the race that you want to unlock.

 

The surface problem here is that there's a great many players who, based on your notice, have been saving character slots for these races. It's easy to assume that a large portion of these players were waiting to start a *new* race, not a race they've already played to death. After all, people who like variety don't tend to like creating the same thing over and over again.

 

The real problem is that your approach to legacy levels is fundamentally illogical. It's a system designed to reward alt-play but mathematically and mechanically encourages main-play. Specifically, rewards in this game promote a certain type of play over all others. Questing to 50. You're making two assertions with this:

 

 

1) Questing is valued over grinding, dungeon-crawling, or pvp. This I can understand, as it's clear that's where the majority of the game's resources were spent. You want people to play the story, and those of us who want to play it some other way are fighting an uphill battle to make it work. It's annoying, but it makes sense. I can't say it isn't in line with the direction of a story-driven game.

 

2) A level 50 character's legacy-related time is worth more than a level 25 character's legacy-related time. This is where you've made a mistake. By creating legacy levels, you're promoting alt-play. It actually specifically caters to a group of people that don't get a lot of attention. People who create a million alts but are slow to max out any of them. Unfortunately, though, legacy gain is proportional to experience gain, and experience gain is

exponentially

proportional to level. This means that playing an alt is a next to worthless way to progress in the legacy system.

 

 

This is the logical error. What you're saying is "we want you to make lots of alts," but what the math says is "we want you to make lots of alts, but we only want to reward you for time spent on a main." This is ridiculous. Why would you put a system in that encourages alt play but discourages alt play at the same time? Stop forcing static play with systems that are specifically designed to cater to variety. Legacy progression should be totally or mostly independent of level. Game systems should not be schizophrenic.

 

 

 

note: I have a 50. Also, cybernetics are hereditary.

Edited March 7, 2012 by CaptainBlackout

[DarthSeidhr]

I think the better question is who gives a steaming pile of freshly laid crap about being able to play different race/class combos with the already available races and classes?

[terminova]

It actually isn't a logic error, it's a "what do you value more" question: Legacy levels or leveling an alt.

[CaptainBlackout]

So you don't think playing an alt is an appropriate way to progress in a system that's designed to promote playing an alt?

[Avatarless]

It actually isn't a logic error, it's a "what do you value more" question: Legacy levels or leveling an alt.

 

And it should not have to be that way. It should be fun and available to do both.

 

The Legacy Sytem is one of the worst roadblocks in the game for me personally, as I like to play alts but have felt restricted from doing so due to not having my Legacy unlocked.

 

I would prefer the Legacy level requirement were removed all together so the issue of starting an alt at any time you wish is not something you need to debate.

[CaptainBlackout]

I think the better question is who gives a steaming pile of freshly laid crap about being able to play different race/class combos with the already available races and classes?

 

I was saving Miraluka and sith marauder for each other. I was also saving dark side jedi guardian for cyborg. The jedi will eventually happen, but to do both I'd have to create a miraluka, level him to 50, then delete him to make a sith. I figured saving two slots was enough. I was wrong.

 

I don't really know why cyborg isn't there already. The two most famous force-users ever both had cybernetics.

 

I suppose, also, that this move will make it more difficult to implement race changes.

Edited March 7, 2012 by CaptainBlackout

[santino]

I think the better question is who gives a steaming pile of freshly laid crap about being able to play different race/class combos with the already available races and classes?

 

I do, for one.

 

I'm actually in the opposite boat.. my wife and I both already created a number of alts (primarily for crafting) and now find ourselves unable to benefit from some of the legacy benefits, as we are out of character slots and would have to restart characters that, while low in adventuring level, might already be 300-400 in all of their crew skills.

[CaptainBlackout]

I would prefer the Legacy level requirement were removed all together so the issue of starting an alt at any time you wish is not something you need to debate.

 

My biggest problem here is that if you wanted to start on a new server you have to level all the way to 30 just to see if your name worked the way you want it. Silly.

 

When you do get legacy, you'll progress in it much more slowly if you bounce. I guess some movement is better than no movement, though.

[MoFugga]

Way to screw over people who have played humans characters. Thanks for letting us know in ADVANCE we were waisting our time.

[Garrum]

Way to screw over people who have played humans characters. Thanks for letting us know in ADVANCE we were waisting our time.

 

That's the problem I have with it: it totally shuts out people who have a human as their main.

[Varteras]

While I loved pretty much everything I saw and heard from the Guild Summit this was the one thing that made me wince. Now this isn't something that affects me because I don't have a particular attachment to a race or have some desire to play a class/race combo of my dreams but I understand that other people do.

 

A friend of mine has a Zabrak Sorceror at level 50 but he really wanted to create a Miraluka Sorceror. So for him he would have to go play Republic, level a Miraluka to 50, and then create another Sorceror which means he may as well delete his Zabrak and wave goodbye to all the effort he put into that character. At the very least Bioware should create a function that will allow people like him to change their race once they have completed the prerequisites.

 

As far as the people who already filled up their character slots and can't make a new one on that server this doesn't solve their problem. The only two ways to solve this that I can see that don't involve forcing the player to delete a toon while still keeping Legacy restricted by server is to either rethink the way players unlock new races and how they can apply them or allow for additional character slots.

 

As far as the issue surrounding those who leveled a Human to 50 I really don't know what to say. At least you already have a leg up on the multiple Presence buffs your companions can get which should make leveling through the story a little easier.

[Wiggin]

Way to screw over people who have played humans characters. Thanks for letting us know in ADVANCE we were waisting our time.

 

Instead of unlocking the race of the character that hits 50 they could have solved this issue by letting you choose a single race to unlock for all classes when you hit 50 on a given character.

 

That obviously didn't fit with the logic underlying the legacy system, but is by far the best way to assure that players have equal access to a preferred race without forcing them to play a race/class combo they may not want to play (for example, if you want to unlock Chiss for your Republic toons you are forced to play a BH or IA, even if you would rather use your available character slot to play the Sith Warrior story).

Edited March 7, 2012 by Wiggin

[NRieh]

I don't really see how this system supports main-players. At all. I'm heavy non-althoholic. I just can't see any good for me from this system, though they promissed it should bring fun for main-players also. It does not buff or mod my existing char. From what I've heared - I'm supposed to pay creds for most features alt-users get for their alts.

 

Please tell me, if I'm wrong here. Could misread something, or miss some parts (since I did not watch any lives and only followed GS via different sites and blogs). So, how EXACTLY this system supports main-players?

[Shonuff]

I totaly agree with the OP here. Does'nt make sense that you have to grind the same character on a different faction just to play that race on the other faction. Just sounds like a ridiculously complicated Achievment system.

 

I understand that MMO's are to encourage continuous play but this just seems like more work than fun. Nobody likes grinding unless it leads to a more useful reward that can be utilized like the abilities unlock for classes. Whats worst is they are allowing you to buy these features which is probably their excuse for sticking with this method.

 

Solution would be to make it a token earned to unlock. Each time you play ANY class and reach 50, you unlock a token to that species unlock and choose the race you want to play. This will still encourage continuous play becaue.

 

1) You playing the race YOU want to play.

 

2) When you level up the race YOU want to play and level them to 50 you earn another token.

 

3) You get to pick another race YOU want to play next.

 

Same goal reached, less of a pain. People are playing different classes and different races and you dont' have a lot of people raging at you (Bioware) for making them grind needlessly.

[Varteras]

I don't really see how this system supports main-players. At all. I'm heavy non-althoholic. I just can't see any good for me from this system, though they promissed it should bring fun for main-players also. It does not buff or mod my existing char. From what I've heared - I'm supposed to pay creds for most features alt-users get for their alts.

 

Please tell me, if I'm wrong here. Could misread something, or miss some parts (since I did not watch any lives and only followed GS via different sites and blogs). So, how EXACTLY this system supports main-players?

 

Because not all of the bonuses are tied to leveling alts. Things like additions to your ship and the ability to increase companion effectiveness by completing all of the companion missions for each companion type can be acquired simply by sticking with your main and leveling the Legacy that way. The things that require you to have leveled other toons will likely be the bonuses you can purchase outright with credits if you're not an alt person. Also should keep in mind that what they showed us may not be everything we get with Legacy when 1.2 launches and they have said that this is a system that will be constantly updated.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Varteras

[amnie]

the only real problem I have with this is that I NEED MORE CHARACTER SLOTS. GRRR. I want to play a Chiss gunslinger, and I already have a chiss IA so it's not the huge problem.. but eventually there will be more races/classes and grrr... how is that supposed to work? how?

 

I already play my trooper and my bh on a different server because I only want to see the story, not further interested in the classes... but I want to play both AC for several of the others

[Valkanna]

The whole being FORCED to level to 50 just to unlock something which you can then use on a character you actually want to play is ********

 

It's a shiny way of forcing you to play as much as possible

Other games have undless grind to get gear which forces you to play loads, they just came up with a different idea for the same result

 

I'll give you an example of just how ****ed up this idea is:

 

1) I play empire, I'm part of a guild I've been with through many games for 9 years, I have many friends there, I have never played rep and have no interest in doing so

2) I have no interest in playing SI

3) (here's the problem) I love twi'leks

 

Under this oh so amazing idea I'll be forced to either play a class I have zero interest in or play a faction estranged from everyone I want to play with just to unlock a race I like

 

When I first looked at the fact you earn legacy levels I was assuming that you used those levels as some sort of currency to buy things. that's it. just a new type of vendor using legacy currency. no strings attached, no being forced to do things I have no interest in.

 

Obviously that's not good enough. they need to force as much game time out of you as possible

**** you, why the **** should I now be forced to do even more to get things when I've already earned the legacy levels

[NRieh]

Things like additions to your ship and the ability to increase companion effectiveness by completing all of the companion missions for each companion type can be acquired simply by sticking with your main and leveling the Legacy that way.

I'd say those would be avalible to both alt\main players. I see how they "encourage" altusers - the more alts you get the more perks you have. I still don't see how they support my main-gaming. I don't get anything that non-alters have, exept, mb larger amount of points to spent on goods fpr needs of single char (?? in case legacy is "consumable", not just "exp"-like).

[Valkanna]

 

Nope, stil a problem if the race you want to play is a race that's only available for a class you don't want to play (eg for me it's don't want to play SI or Rep but DO want to play Twi'lek)

 

A little edit to your idea would be perfectly acceptable:

Each time you play ANY class and reach 50, you unlock a token to ANY species unlock and choose the race you want to play.

 

Of course the easiest way of all is to have legacy levels used as a form of currency,ie each legacy ding you earn legacy commendation, which you can then spend on anything in a special vendor.

[Tiaa]

So wait...I'm supposed to level a bunch of characters to 50 just to play that race on another class...?

 

I am not sure If I am understanding this right because it just sounds stupid as usual.

 

This game is just a pile of tedious, redudant grinding in which Bioware attempts to make the game a burden on players because there isn't enough real content to keep the players.

 

What is this?

[Varteras]

I'd say those would be avalible to both alt\main players. I see how they "encourage" altusers - the more alts you get the more perks you have. I still don't see how they support my main-gaming. I don't get anything that non-alters have, exept, mb larger amount of points to spent on goods fpr needs of single char (?? in case legacy is "consumable", not just "exp"-like).

 

The Legacy system is there to encourage alt play. They want people to play through the multiple stories. As I said, you can get the things the alt players can get by leveling the Legacy through your main and spending credits to get things that would require you to invest the time into multiple alts. At least that's the impression I got. Yes, it does seem that several of the features (achieved by alts or credits or leveling the Legacy) are aimed at alt play and that main-only players will not get as much out of it. The bottomline is that Legacy does have some things for people who only roll one character but the system was built around the idea that you play multiple characters. If you thought that what they meant was that main-only players and alt-oholics were going to find equal value with this system you were likely mistaken as I don't recall them saying anything like that.

 

There's something for everyone in this game. At least that's what they're trying to do. This happens to be one of those features that you're probably not going to get as much out of as the alt players.

[Vecke]

I'd say those would be avalible to both alt\main players. I see how they "encourage" altusers - the more alts you get the more perks you have. I still don't see how they support my main-gaming. I don't get anything that non-alters have, exept, mb larger amount of points to spent on goods fpr needs of single char (?? in case legacy is "consumable", not just "exp"-like).

 

This is an alt-system. This system was designed to encourage and reward alting. It's not meant to benefit people that don't alt. They've said the legacy system is to encourage alts from the start. Here's a quote: "We wanted to have a system that encouraged players to create alts and to play the game through the different story paths. So the legacy system is meant to do that."

 

So no, it's not really for people that don't alt. Just like the new Op isn't for people that don't raid and just like the new pvp zone isn't for people that don't pvp and just like the new FP isn't for people that solo.

 

I hope I'm not coming across as snide here. That's genuinely not my intention. And if I'm misunderstanding your point, feel free to correct me. I'm not always the brightest lightsaber in the room.

 

I'm just explaining why it doesn't have much (if anything) for a main-player. Because that's not who the Legacy is designed to reward. I'm personally very happy to see an MMO actually reward alting (even if it's not perfect). It's a refreshing change for me.

 

When they said this would have perks for a main as well, I took that to mean the main would benefit from a player's alts in various ways. If they've made comments that say Legacy benefits people that never alt, I've not seen them.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Vecke

[terminova]

And it should not have to be that way. It should be fun and available to do both.

 

What I mean is you can either decide to keep gaining Legacy levels at a faster rate at level 50, or level an alt and gain Legacy levels at a slower rate. Either way it doesn't affect the fun factor unless you hate doing stuff at the level cap, in which case it does become: be bored to death gaining Legacy levels at a faster rate or have fun leveling an alt and gaining Legacy levels at a slower rate. If you abhor leveling alts, there is no decision to make since leveling an alt is decidedly not fun, and Legacy levels then no longer even matter.

 

The Legacy Sytem is one of the worst roadblocks in the game for me personally, as I like to play alts but have felt restricted from doing so due to not having my Legacy unlocked.

 

Then finish the first chapter of your character's class storyline to unlock your Legacy, and finish leveling to 50. As it is, the only person restricting you is yourself. If you want to start an alt now, you can. If you want to wait until you unlock your Legacy, you can. If you want to wait until level 50, you can. In no case is anyone actually preventing you or stopping you from starting an alt except yourself.

 

I would prefer the Legacy level requirement were removed all together so the issue of starting an alt at any time you wish is not something you need to debate.

 

They need the Legacy level requirements so they can tier the benefits of the Legacy system.

Edited March 7, 2012 by terminova

[CaptainBlackout]

What I mean is you can either decide to keep gaining Legacy levels at a faster rate at level 50, or level an alt and gain Legacy levels at a slower rate. Either way it doesn't affect the fun factor unless you hate doing stuff at the level cap, in which case it does become: be bored to death gaining Legacy levels at a faster rate or have fun leveling an alt and gaining Legacy levels at a slower rate.

 

I think there's a misunderstanding in the last few posts based on this. Nrieh had said, "I still don't see how they support my main-gaming." I think this was in reference to what I had said about the system mechanically and mathematically encouraging mains.

 

When a system is top-heavy or advancement in the system is exponentially proportional to level, then alts see less advancement than mains. It's a fundamental contradiction in what's intended with the legacy system versus how the legacy system actually plays out.

 

I suppose younger MMOers might be able to relate to the antiquated but recent analogy in which PVPers are required to PVE to be competitive in PVP. Forcing style of play on people is bad business, and thus implementation should match the design's intentions.

Edited March 7, 2012 by CaptainBlackout

[Goretzu]

So you don't think playing an alt is an appropriate way to progress in a system that's designed to promote playing an alt?

 

 

 

Hard to argue with that.

 

Unless the system is there purely for the extra grind (and shamelessly so).