Sorc/Sage Friendly Pull

[dcgregorya]

Massive wall of sorc defense text.

 

Bottom line is if they wanted you to have a targetable ball carrier pull they'd just make pass targetable instead of having it be able to be intercepted and require AOE targeting.

 

IE, if rescue/extricate are working as intended for huttball, there'd be no "pass" ability.

 

You're right, having a sorc on your ramparts pull someone is similar to passing. Except to block passing I don't have to kill you before you ever get to that point, I just need to jump in front of you or knock you back and catch it.

Edited March 9, 2012 by dcgregorya

[KittyPrawn]

I have played ENTIRE matches standing as a sorc on the enemy ramps and pulling the ball carrier. And by that statement, I mean totally unmolested. In the same vein, I have lost matches because my team has allowed this to occur.

 

It isn't broken just because the opposite team allows it to happen. Blame the players, not the class.

[Soshla]

And by that statement, I mean totally unmolested.

Hehe.

 

I've had/done similar things. I won a Huttball match within 5 minutes once because we had two Sages (including myself) pulling people to the goal line. I always tell people to kill/knocback Sorcs/Sages on our side if they see them.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Soshla

[Magnesium]

I don't feel the problem is the ability to pull a friendly or enemy, it is the fact that if one side has too many of that particular class then you give them a + bonus from the start, the class balance in WZs sometimes amazes me and very little you can do against that.

[Magdain]

This is part of huttball strategy. If you allow the opposing team to set up a multiple person chain of rescues then:

 

a) They're very good, coordinated players.

b) You're not very good or coordinated players.

 

The entire reason there are multiple levels and ball passing is to force players to cover more than one path to the goal. Removing any form of mobility that allows you to bypass terrain moves the warzone one step closer to a single strategy: Give the ball to a guarded tank and 7 person waddle to the goal line.

 

Nerfing rescue also sets a dangerous precedent. At what point do we prevent people with the ball from leaping and sprinting? You can set up a chain of leaps/sprints and get to the goal just as quickly as with a rescue chain.

[Caeelar]

It's amazing how ignorant this post is, you're insinuating that the entire teams efforts should go to protecting every single prong that the attackers can take. It's also astounding that you think that everything in this game is balanced. Specs that rely on ~2 buttons vs. Marauders/Sentinels that have to juggle energy management with an active ability list of 8+. Also, insinuating that I'm just some crybaby by saying I'd want a nerf on the pass ability is very telling of how protective this community is over things that are clearly not fair. Stay classy bud.

 

LOL this post is completely ignorant. You truly think sorcs don't have energy (we use force) to manage? You truly thing any sorc can do anything with just two buttons? You have 8+ abilities keyed eh? I freaking have 27, 23 of which I use every match. If you think sorc is so easy, try it sometime....

[Humankeg]

Players can just pass the ball. Having the ability to pull the carrier doesn't really advance the ball any more than they would normally be able to. Being able to pull the enemy is much better. The problem is people are dumb and don't pass.

 

Players can't pass the ball while stunned. They can be pulled while stunned though. HUGE, HUGE, HUGE difference.

 

This^

 

Letting a team get into position is not playing defense. I've seen a team pick up the ball mid, pass to the top, pass to the top side, run down and pass to someone waiting below for a quick score because the other team was more worried about scoring kills around mid than keeping their backfield clear.

 

Had a 5 v 6 game the other night where both teams had quick pass lanes set up and it was over under 10 mins.. I may have seen 1 pull by the other team but it didn't matter as much as who picked up the ball first and ditched it to their 2nd passer.

 

Passing & Position > rescue... but it does come in handy for when the ball handlers try and walk over firepits & get chain stunned...

 

The object of the game is not to not allow sorcs to get into position. The object of the game is to keep the other team from scoring. Having to focus all your attention on "sorcs" during a huttball is the issue here, and with the way pull is set up, they become something that is a top priority by a wide margin. Tweaking pull would fix this.

 

I have played ENTIRE matches standing as a sorc on the enemy ramps and pulling the ball carrier. And by that statement, I mean totally unmolested. In the same vein, I have lost matches because my team has allowed this to occur.

 

It isn't broken just because the opposite team allows it to happen. Blame the players, not the class.

 

Being the sole sorc on a team and doing this 100% unmolested is the fault of the players, not the game.

 

Having 4 sorcs doing this and not being able to kill them or CC them because of knock downs ect, is the fault of the game. you might be able to take out 1, maybe 2, POSSIBLY 3 sorcs. But 4... no. Not unless you send your entire team against them, and that just leaves their ball carrier free to score.

 

LOL this post is completely ignorant. You truly think sorcs don't have energy (we use force) to manage? You truly thing any sorc can do anything with just two buttons? You have 8+ abilities keyed eh? I freaking have 27, 23 of which I use every match. If you think sorc is so easy, try it sometime....

 

Sorcs don't manage energy. If spec'd properly they never run "oom". But this thread isn't about that. Stay on topic.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Humankeg

[Humankeg]

This is part of huttball strategy. If you allow the opposing team to set up a multiple person chain of rescues then:

 

a) They're very good, coordinated players.

b) You're not very good or coordinated players.

 

The entire reason there are multiple levels and ball passing is to force players to cover more than one path to the goal. Removing any form of mobility that allows you to bypass terrain moves the warzone one step closer to a single strategy: Give the ball to a guarded tank and 7 person waddle to the goal line.

 

Nerfing rescue also sets a dangerous precedent. At what point do we prevent people with the ball from leaping and sprinting? You can set up a chain of leaps/sprints and get to the goal just as quickly as with a rescue chain.

 

Can you dispute that "pull" is an excellent tool to use in Huttball? If you agree it is, why wouldn't you want 3-4 people on your team to have that excellent tool?

 

If it is not such a great ability that will force teams to stack sorcs, why not just make it impossible for teams to chain pull or have it empty the resolve bar when used? If its not used that much or isn't so game breaking, no one would mind if it isn't used as often.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Humankeg

[BountyFodder]

I think that most people also underestimate how much co-ordination is actually required to even get 2 Sages to co-ordinate a chain pull without being a premade on TS. In many ways, it is more of "game breaking" for a guardian/jugg to be able to leapt to friendly, leap to enemy. push to reset, and leap. Usually this can put him on or a few meters from the line. With that cooldown that prevents knockbacks and immobilize. They are a one man capping machine. Whereas the sage problem only occurs when 2 or more sages can be co-ordinated together.

The leaping problem is compounded when you have a ball carrier and a few enemies in your pit, you have a few friendlies getting attacked. You respawn and run towards the pit to help them out. As a ranged class you are tempted to stand on the top and nuke down. But the Jugg will simply leap to you. So you have to jump down. But even that is not safe, because a good jugg will be watching the respawn barrier. and target someone and get the jumping leap off before you get down into the pit. Thus that one ability locks you from approaching the edge at all. So the only viable tactic is to stand back and not give him a target to leap to. Eventually everyone is outnumbered and everyone has respawned. all holding back gives the enemies time to get people onto the top rafters and provide leap targets, without you being able to head forwards because you give a more juicy leap target anyway.

 

To me that is far more "broken" than chain sage pulls. And I get on with it.

 

In principal I would support a debuff that would stop the sages from chain pulling more than twice or something. But then you need to stop the jugg from being able to chain leap, which breaks much of their utility and mobility in WZ's.

 

WHen looking at the bigger picture, people just need to get on with it and L2P. If you let more than 1 sage get into a good pulling position, then you are playing badly as a team.

[Humankeg]

I think that most people also underestimate how much co-ordination is actually required to even get 2 Sages to co-ordinate a chain pull without being a premade on TS. In many ways, it is more of "game breaking" for a guardian/jugg to be able to leapt to friendly, leap to enemy. push to reset, and leap. Usually this can put him on or a few meters from the line. With that cooldown that prevents knockbacks and immobilize. They are a one man capping machine. Whereas the sage problem only occurs when 2 or more sages can be co-ordinated together.

The leaping problem is compounded when you have a ball carrier and a few enemies in your pit, you have a few friendlies getting attacked. You respawn and run towards the pit to help them out. As a ranged class you are tempted to stand on the top and nuke down. But the Jugg will simply leap to you. So you have to jump down. But even that is not safe, because a good jugg will be watching the respawn barrier. and target someone and get the jumping leap off before you get down into the pit. Thus that one ability locks you from approaching the edge at all. So the only viable tactic is to stand back and not give him a target to leap to. Eventually everyone is outnumbered and everyone has respawned. all holding back gives the enemies time to get people onto the top rafters and provide leap targets, without you being able to head forwards because you give a more juicy leap target anyway.

 

To me that is far more "broken" than chain sage pulls. And I get on with it.

 

In principal I would support a debuff that would stop the sages from chain pulling more than twice or something. But then you need to stop the jugg from being able to chain leap, which breaks much of their utility and mobility in WZ's.

 

WHen looking at the bigger picture, people just need to get on with it and L2P. If you let more than 1 sage get into a good pulling position, then you are playing badly as a team.

 

My concern isn't with sages/sorcs so much in random pugs, it will be in ranked huttball matches where they will be coordinated and such. Chain pulls happen pretty often already and it moves the ball carrier so far in such a short period of time and each pull acts like an extra "trinket" that the ball carrier has to get out of situations.

[Alakine]

Okay take that ability away from sorcs and.. then we drop from being sub-optimal in pvp to god-aweful. Melee eat us for breakfast if they get close - skillmissle mercs have more burst. Whats really left to us but our one goddam gimmik button that you want to take away?

[Magdain]

Can you dispute that "pull" is an excellent tool to use in Huttball? If you agree it is, why wouldn't you want 3-4 people on your team to have that excellent tool?

 

If it is not such a great ability that will force teams to stack sorcs, why not just make it impossible for teams to chain pull or have it empty the resolve bar when used? If its not used that much or isn't so game breaking, no one would mind if it isn't used as often.

 

You seem to have ignored an important part of my response. Of course rescue is a great ability in huttball, but in most cases it's no better than pass the ball, which every single class already gets. It's no better than intercede. Why not stack juggernauts?

 

A tank+tank guarding each other are almost unkillable, why not use that in every game?

 

A sniper camping past the fire completely controls that entire catwalk, why not have 2 of those for each walk in every game?

 

Marauders have predation which allows their party to carry the ball at faster than base run speed. They have a 30m leap that ignores z-axis to let them get back to a catwalk when there's nobody to pass it to. They have 3 cooldowns that make them virtually unkillable for the duration of chaining them. Why not bring 8 of them and cap with impunity?

 

Powertechs and tank assassins can kill a ball carrier in 3 seconds flat and it's almost impossible to counter. Why not have 6 of them so that the opposing team could never cap?

 

The game is new. It has imbalances. There are plenty of gimmick strategies and comps that give you an advantage in huttball. If you can't see each of them for how they are and instead point out a rather average ability like rescue, you have a severe bias.

[zizzefex]

Im sorry but i think its you that has no clue, it just seems you have come up against a team knowing what they are doing in Hutt Ball it seems that you just a little upset.

 

If BW took out all the abilities that people are complaining about then what type of game would we have?

 

You should be able to stealth all the way to the goal-line and score WITH THE BALL. It's fine.... both teams can do it. Yup perfectly balanced. Let's do it... stealth carriers able to carry the ball.

[deltaminus]

Do you really think Huttball is anything but a gimmick? Do you even PvP?

It's not a gimmick, it's the funnest WZ of them all.

[indelible]

You seem to have ignored an important part of my response. Of course rescue is a great ability in huttball, but in most cases it's no better than pass the ball, which every single class already gets. It's no better than intercede. Why not stack juggernauts?

 

A tank+tank guarding each other are almost unkillable, why not use that in every game?

 

A sniper camping past the fire completely controls that entire catwalk, why not have 2 of those for each walk in every game?

 

Marauders have predation which allows their party to carry the ball at faster than base run speed. They have a 30m leap that ignores z-axis to let them get back to a catwalk when there's nobody to pass it to. They have 3 cooldowns that make them virtually unkillable for the duration of chaining them. Why not bring 8 of them and cap with impunity?

 

Powertechs and tank assassins can kill a ball carrier in 3 seconds flat and it's almost impossible to counter. Why not have 6 of them so that the opposing team could never cap?

 

The game is new. It has imbalances. There are plenty of gimmick strategies and comps that give you an advantage in huttball. If you can't see each of them for how they are and instead point out a rather average ability like rescue, you have a severe bias.

 

This.

 

People really need to wake up.

 

Or at least stop posting.

 

Posts like the above make you all look so very, very silly.

[Humankeg]

You seem to have ignored an important part of my response. Of course rescue is a great ability in huttball, but in most cases it's no better than pass the ball, which every single class already gets. It's no better than intercede. Why not stack juggernauts?

 

A tank+tank guarding each other are almost unkillable, why not use that in every game?

 

A sniper camping past the fire completely controls that entire catwalk, why not have 2 of those for each walk in every game?

 

Marauders have predation which allows their party to carry the ball at faster than base run speed. They have a 30m leap that ignores z-axis to let them get back to a catwalk when there's nobody to pass it to. They have 3 cooldowns that make them virtually unkillable for the duration of chaining them. Why not bring 8 of them and cap with impunity?

 

Powertechs and tank assassins can kill a ball carrier in 3 seconds flat and it's almost impossible to counter. Why not have 6 of them so that the opposing team could never cap?

 

The game is new. It has imbalances. There are plenty of gimmick strategies and comps that give you an advantage in huttball. If you can't see each of them for how they are and instead point out a rather average ability like rescue, you have a severe bias.

 

How is it possible that passing the ball is better than pull? Please explain this. I would 100% of the time, EVERY TIME, pull someone as opposed to passing the ball to someone. Its easier to do, no chance for an intercpet, ect. PLease explain how passing is better.

 

And why not stack jugs? Because in order to use their intercede in "chain sequence", they would need to pass the ball. I am fine with passing the ball. I am not fine with chain pulling someone that is CC"d or on full resolve.

 

PT's and Assassins do have grapple, but in case you didn't realize this because you are too stupid to understand, grapple is affected by resolve. Pull is not. This has been what I have been arguing about this entire time. I do not want grapple to not be affected by resolve; I like it the way it is. But I do want pull nerfed so that it is affected by resolve: pulling a target removes some resolve allowing the target to be cc'd again, and also can not be used on targets with full resolve.

 

If you can't see this glaring difference between the effectiveness of these abilities, then I am done with you.

 

Grapple: affected by resolve; once target is at full resolve, one can not grapple the target. Grapple almost fully fills a resolve bar, hence making stacking classes that can grapple useless.

 

Pull: not affected by resolve. Even at a full resolve bar, the target can still be pulled, including when a PT/Assassin grapple the target into a fire pit. Pull is not affected by resolve, so stacking Sorcs to chain pull is the way to go.

 

Make both be affected by resolve the same way, and all is fine.

 

And some questions answered in your post:

 

*tanks cannot gaurd each other. One can guard the other, but both can not guard each other. And they are still squishy, and not impossible to kill.

*Mauraders ability doesn't stack, so no need to stack them.

*Snipers are not very good in pvp and hardly can control anything.

*Pull is stackable (chain pulling) so that is why sorcs will be stacked. Make pull affected by resolve, and presto, no need to stack sorcs anymore (one or two will be fine).

Edited March 10, 2012 by Humankeg

[Adzzy]

As great as protips are, groups with 2-3 sorcs/sages will completely negate the effects of a knockback just by spreading out.

 

the ability needs a debuff to prevent chain ping pong sure, but disabling it on ball carriers isn't the answer.

[Adzzy]

Grapple: affected by resolve; once target is at full resolve, one can not grapple the target. Grapple almost fully fills a resolve bar, hence making stacking classes that can grapple useless.

 

You can be grappled 3 times before resolve fills, i'm trying to remember it off the top off my head, i think it's 40 resolve (and it's absolutely below 50)

 

 

A sniper camping past the fire completely controls that entire catwalk, why not have 2 of those for each walk in every game?

 

to be fair, ive scored many a goal by stun darting a sniper to pull him out of his cover then charging for the goal, lol

Edited March 10, 2012 by Adzzy

[Paulman]

How is it possible that passing the ball is better than pull? Please explain this. I would 100% of the time, EVERY TIME, pull someone as opposed to passing the ball to someone. Its easier to do, no chance for an intercpet, ect. PLease explain how passing is better.

 

And why not stack jugs? Because in order to use their intercede in "chain sequence", they would need to pass the ball. I am fine with passing the ball. I am not fine with chain pulling someone that is CC"d or on full resolve.

 

PT's and Assassins do have grapple, but in case you didn't realize this because you are too stupid to understand, grapple is affected by resolve. Pull is not. This has been what I have been arguing about this entire time. I do not want grapple to not be affected by resolve; I like it the way it is. But I do want pull nerfed so that it is affected by resolve: pulling a target removes some resolve allowing the target to be cc'd again, and also can not be used on targets with full resolve.

 

If you can't see this glaring difference between the effectiveness of these abilities, then I am done with you.

 

Grapple: affected by resolve; once target is at full resolve, one can not grapple the target. Grapple almost fully fills a resolve bar, hence making stacking classes that can grapple useless.

 

Pull: not affected by resolve. Even at a full resolve bar, the target can still be pulled, including when a PT/Assassin grapple the target into a fire pit. Pull is not affected by resolve, so stacking Sorcs to chain pull is the way to go.

 

Make both be affected by resolve the same way, and all is fine.

 

And some questions answered in your post:

 

*tanks cannot gaurd each other. One can guard the other, but both can not guard each other. And they are still squishy, and not impossible to kill.

*Mauraders ability doesn't stack, so no need to stack them.

*Snipers are not very good in pvp and hardly can control anything.

*Pull is stackable (chain pulling) so that is why sorcs will be stacked. Make pull affected by resolve, and presto, no need to stack sorcs anymore (one or two will be fine).

 

Passing changes who is carrying the ball, making it hard to focus the carrier. Passing also has no cooldown. Pull has a full minute cooldown, meaning even if they did setup chain pulls the opposition still have a fulll minute before they could do it again. Don't get me wrong the friendly pull is good but, I don't see it any more game breaking than pulling someone into the fire and basically getting a free kill.

[Luciferhawke]

cheating is encouraged.

[Monoth]

Easy solution is to kill anyone who is standing around on your side for a pass or in a sorc/sage case is going to pull someone to them....

 

As a gunslinger I usually play defense since i can throw up my barrier and they can't jump to me or cc me, then if any of them try to setup for a easy score I either kill em or boot em off....

 

It's called strategy, instead of complaining about a skill that messes up your "" Idea "" of how things should play out, why not figure the counter to it...

[Humankeg]

Passing changes who is carrying the ball, making it hard to focus the carrier. Passing also has no cooldown. Pull has a full minute cooldown, meaning even if they did setup chain pulls the opposition still have a fulll minute before they could do it again. Don't get me wrong the friendly pull is good but, I don't see it any more game breaking than pulling someone into the fire and basically getting a free kill.

 

Pull give the ball carrier an extra "trinket" or ability to break out of CC's. The jug's ability to move the ball and the sorc's ability to help move the ball is far better than being able to pass the ball. Good players don't have problems focusing carriers btw.

 

And its not game breaking. You can still play with this abiltiy the way it is. Its just that when 8 man ranked wz's come out, every legitimate comp (competitive comp) will have:

 

* Jugg as ball carrier

* 3 but possibly 4 sorcs for their teams.

 

I do not want to see this. Having 3 or 4 sorcs on a team just because you know good players that play that class is fine. Having 3 or 4 sorcs on your team because that is the only way to be competitive is bad game design.

 

A simple change so that pull is affected by resolve (like EVERY SINGLE CC IN GAME) balances this and still makes it so that pull is a very powerful ability.

 

You can be grappled 3 times before resolve fills, i'm trying to remember it off the top off my head, i think it's 40 resolve (and it's absolutely below 50)

 

to be fair, ive scored many a goal by stun darting a sniper to pull him out of his cover then charging for the goal, lol

 

You can be grappled at most twice before becomign immune. On top of that, once the 2nd grapple hits, you can not cc the target anymore. You can though: pull, pull, pull, pull and still be immune to CC's. This is an issue.

[Humankeg]

Easy solution is to kill anyone who is standing around on your side for a pass or in a sorc/sage case is going to pull someone to them....

 

As a gunslinger I usually play defense since i can throw up my barrier and they can't jump to me or cc me, then if any of them try to setup for a easy score I either kill em or boot em off....

 

It's called strategy, instead of complaining about a skill that messes up your "" Idea "" of how things should play out, why not figure the counter to it...

 

A good sorc/sage will not be killed 1vs1 in Huttball up on the cat walks. The classes that can beat them 1vs1 will be line of sighted, or knocked down. I normally roll of sorcs in VS and CW, or in the bottom areas of Huttball. But against a good sorc in the cat walks, I simply get blown to the bottom level.

 

And the counter to pull is ignore the ball carrier and make sure no sorcs are up top or at the goal line. That is bad game design. No class should merit that kind of attention, and there is currently one class that does in this WZ. The game is not called Sorc ball.

 

A simple change so that pull is affected and does affect resolve balances it out. EVERY SINGLE CC IN GAME is affected by resolve, why can't pull be?

[CaptainInsano]

Yeah I think Huttball would be more legitimate if all movement abilities were disabled on the ball carrier. I don't think it's right that some classes can totally bypass the hazards but others can't. It feels like cheese every time when my team does it and when the opponent does it. I want the players to be forced to pass the ball and not just magically pull the ball carrier to victory. Those movement abilities (leap, pull, speed boost, ally pull) would still be extremely useful because you could use them to get into position, they just wouldn't be I-win buttons like they are now.

[Anthiel]

the ability is fine it just needs a 20 sec personal cd like the bubble has so you cant chain pull. but its just to unique and fun of an ability to cut out of pvp we cut out all the flavor and were all just going to be standing around in pissing contests seeing who can hose who down with the most damage first either way im ready i drank a whole lot before i came into this post.