buubz Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 I sympathize with you and your fustration. But the problem with your rhetoric like many others who complain about some of the things in this game is that it's subjective. You say this is a problem but like many others have said, both teams have the potential to utilize this tactic. When facing premades your gonna run into this, thats a given. Your only hope is to form a premade yourself with some Sorc/sages to take advantage of this. If your playing with a bunch of pugs of course it's gonna be fustrating. You put the best PvP'er on a pug team I promise you he won't do half as good as he would in an orgainzed team. It's you vs the rest. Now try to look at this from a different perspective. Imagine they took this ability away or nerfed it in some way. How would anyone save you from falling in the pit, or firetrap or acid pit. or a group of player mobs ready to rip you to shreds. You can hate the sorc/sage but you can't help but love him too. Be fair about your assesment. I'll say this AGAIN, I have NO problem with this ability as a single use ability, for the exact reasons you've posted. It's okay to use it to get someone out of a clutch situation, I think that's fine. But the fact that it can be used multiple times in rapid succession leaves room for exploitation. I suggested in my OP a pretty easy fix to this, but it's becoming fairly clear that not many people are reading that. I have sympathy for the sorc healers who use this to help a teammate that's in a bind, but have none for teams that use it to abuse chains of it for quick VERY easy huttball caps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buubz Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 Stealth is the real problem imo , it gives an unfair advantage to people in all warzones.No wonder imp teams have 4-6 sorcerers all the time. I laughed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceperson Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 I'll say this AGAIN, I have NO problem with this ability as a single use ability, for the exact reasons you've posted. It's okay to use it to get someone out of a clutch situation, I think that's fine. But the fact that it can be used multiple times in rapid succession leaves room for exploitation. I suggested in my OP a pretty easy fix to this, but it's becoming fairly clear that not many people are reading that. I have sympathy for the sorc healers who use this to help a teammate that's in a bind, but have none for teams that use it to abuse chains of it for quick VERY easy huttball caps. It's easier to defend against than it is to setup. l2p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buubz Posted March 7, 2012 Author Share Posted March 7, 2012 That's why it has a cooldown. Passing doesn't. If a team stacks itself with one class because it beats bads quickly, they can be that much sadder when they face decent opposition. The most OP Huttball team I ever saw was 1 overgeared tank and 6 healers. It was pretty stupid. Once they got the ball, the point was theirs. Passing also has the intrinsic risk of being intercepted, rescue does not. I'm not saying there aren't other OP team comps, but the one you mention can't happen off a 4 man premade, that's just getting queue'd into a team with a LOT of healers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mavnas Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 Passing also has the intrinsic risk of being intercepted, rescue does not. I'm not saying there aren't other OP team comps, but the one you mention can't happen off a 4 man premade, that's just getting queue'd into a team with a LOT of healers. No, that's being on voice chat with another 4man premade and making sure your queues pop at the same time and you're on the same side. I imagine the difficulty of making this happen reliably is why they didn't do that thing very often. (I also saw an imp stealth 8-man... but that sucked so badly they gave up.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArianSix Posted March 7, 2012 Share Posted March 7, 2012 This is ridiculous and really sounds like a L2P situation. As a puller (sorc), I'm squishy and often get killed when trying to get in position to pull the ball carrier. If a team knows what they're doing I can go an entire game without being able to do any good pulls. Pulls are easy to prevent. Kill the puller or displace the puller from their intended position (knockback, etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexiekaboom Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Stealth is the real problem imo , it gives an unfair advantage to people in all warzones.No wonder imp teams have 4-6 sorcerers all the time. What server do you play on? I haven't been in a match with as few as 4 sorcs in weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buubz Posted March 8, 2012 Author Share Posted March 8, 2012 Ty forum mods for removing that horrible troll nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenonParsec Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I don't even play a DPS class, so you've shown exactly how much you know about my playstyle. You also assume that a sorc has 0 escape mechanisms to prevent getting to where they need to be. Please, continue studying to be an e-psychic, you aren't there quite yet. I like how you gloss over the obvious PvP solution, which is to play actual defense. I understand it may be a challenge to your play to consider other aspects of PvP besides deathmatch, regardless of class you play, but these skills are what makes good teams good. If you're so handicapped against sorc, then it's simple team play to type the following in ops chat: "hey guys, we need defense on the bridges, their sorcs are setting up to pull" So unless you can demonstrate that the playerbase at large is unable to a) cc sorcs/sages off bridges or b) inform their op that sorcs/sages are setting up for a pull, then I maintain your issue is actually L2P and not anything the Devs need to address. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Girltank Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I'd emplore you to actually watch a 4 man rescue train, that occurs within the first minute or so of play, and tell me how you'd get a pug to defend against it. Resolve also plays a big role in the potential abuse of rescue chains. In other MMOs, not naming any, deminishing returns negate chain stunning players, but still allow different types of CC to be used when (stuns for example) go on DR. This isn't the case with resolve, as 2 stuns will render the carrier immune to grapple, stuns, knockbacks etc. I personally don't agree with the resolve system, or the obscene amount of CC in this game, but again, that's not what this thread is about. It's true coordinating some pugs will simply be impossible. I can see a lot of frustration from Huttball matches with bad team mates in these forums. However if you have good players on your team the simple truth is that coordination won't even been necessary. Your team will simply not allow the enemy team to get into position to chain pull. Resolve does not protect against snares. You can have a full resolve bar and still be moving so slow that you can't get two feat to the goal before you're ripped apart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Girltank Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 No, it definitely is not. Most pug teams see the flashing light of the ball carrier and swarm him. This makes it unbelievably easy for a sorc to run up the opposite side of the catwalk, rescue up the goal line, and receive a free point. This however isn't what I want changed, if you get one rescue that leads to a clever point, fantastic, you've used your ability well. However, if there are 4 sorcs/sages chaining rescues on the ball carrier and scoring within 5 seconds (with no chance of interception) of picking up the ball, that seems a bit broken to me. Also, there are many shortcomings of grapple, like hitting terrain when they're on the arc over to you and negating the effects of the grapple entirely, just as one example. yeah bad teams will lose badly in Huttball to extremely well coordinated teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BountyFodder Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Yep this is a learn to play for sure. I have been on a team where we had 3 sages, all ready and willing to do some pulling. But every time we even thought of crossing the first fires into the other team's territory we were ripped to pieces, or knocked off, or pulled down, etc.... True we were not a premade, so did not have the full co-ordination of teamspeak and other teammates to protect the strategy, but our opponents were not a premade either. They were all simply decent players that were wise to the strategy that we were pulling. I have also been on teams where me and one other sage, combined with a good guard have scored 6 goals in around 2.5 mins. But who's fault is it, that I got a free run of the top rafters for all 2.5 minutes? All the kids crowding around the ball carrier like 6 year olds playing soccer. One pull and they are all left behind, with nothing to do but watch. Any decent player would make an effort to get me down from there. And yes we only scored 2 of the 6 goals with chain pulls. the other 4 were simply passing between the same 3 characters, in the same pulling positions, just left to their own devices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) I'm sure this has been beat to death, but the fact that this is usable on the ball carrier completely breaks Huttball as a warzone. It's an entirely comp dependant warzone at this point, and if you have leaps/team pulls, you instantly have an advantage, not to mention the insane ranged bias that's already present. Either disable these abilities on the ball carrier, or redesign this gimmick of a map. EDIT: For those that don't read the rest of my posts, I'll just summarize what I believe to be the best way to prevent rescue chain abuse. If there was a debuff placed on the player that was just Rescued, that would not allow the use of rescue on that player for 10-15 seconds. This would allow for a full resolve bar to diminish and give the defending team the possibility of defending past the first pull, as the carrier would either have to pass the ball (and risk the ball getting intercepted or the receiver being pulled/CCed/killed) or try to run it as his resolve bar emptied. Any other ideas that would still leave the ability useful, but still give a tactical edge without being abusable would be greatly appreciated! A friendly pull is a unique niche utility for PVE - one that won't make or break any existing raids. In Huttball its *CLEARLY* overpowered. So much so that either it should be given to everyone on a cooldown (similar to how everyone has a 'pass the huttball' ability) or explicitly prevented via a debuff. The problem with sorc/sage utilities aren't that they are OP by themselves or OP in PVE, the problem is that for PVP they are game breakingly good. Even being able to do it once while then have it on cooldown isn't enough - either it should go to everyone or noone. Things like sprinting to get out of an AOE in PVE isn't game breaking but being able to sprint between capture points or sprint the ball across the goal is overpowered. I don't think handing out sprints via the legacy system is how it should be handled - just disable these abilities in warzones. Edited March 8, 2012 by dcgregorya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 It may be core to you, because you were given it from launch day, but the class that the sorc is so obviously designed around functioned without it for years, and the ability was more of an afterthought. I personally don't have a priest to miss, but thanks for taking my wellbeing into consideration. I highly doubt all the keyboard generals that are posting their 'perfect counters' to the situation I originally posted have actually even seen what I was describing, but again, I've come to expect that from people who don't read and tend to just post their ignorance. I agree that this strategy is available to both sides, and this doesn't actually concern me at all because huttball is a FACTION NEUTRAL WARZONE. It all comes down to what group comp you get thrown into, and if that comp doesn't have a few golden classes while the opposition does, you have to pray that they're garbage players or it's almost a guarenteed loss. To those that will inevitably tell me that I need to get better, that I'm not using everything in my toolset to the best of my ability, that there are many easy ways to counter the scenario I've posted, or any incarnation of the three, you have to realize you've never seen me play, you probably never will see me play, and your judgements are far from wellfounded. But thanks for posting! maybe you should read up the meaning of the word ignorance. or at least be more careful using it. specially if you say stuff like the above quote in the very same post. there are certain tools in this game given to different classes to make combat and pvp more entertaining. obviously you are looking for a zergfest game where you pick up the ball and slowly run it over to the other base without having any tools of interest. just walk, hit, heal.... sorry but thats nowhere challanging. if you are looking for this you might check out for a less advanced game. stuff like friendly pulls, hostile pulls, KBs, stuns, sprints... all that is there to make the game more complex and challanging. it requires setup, timing etc. taking all that away (and basicly you would have to either remove all of them or keep all of them.... otherwise your whining makes NO sense whatsoever) leaves us with a really really sad and boring game. funny how its the same ppl who pretend the game doesnt require much player skills and ask to remove tools at the same time....... that just doesnt seem right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phinion Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Fine remove it so you can not pull the ball carrier to you to score. Guess we should also remove the pulls that the enemy makes to keep that person from scoring also. Works both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 A friendly pull is a unique niche utility for PVE - one that won't make or break any existing raids. In Huttball its *CLEARLY* overpowered. So much so that either it should be given to everyone on a cooldown (similar to how everyone has a 'pass the huttball' ability) or explicitly prevented via a debuff. The problem with sorc/sage utilities aren't that they are OP by themselves or OP in PVE, the problem is that for PVP they are game breakingly good. Even being able to do it once while then have it on cooldown isn't enough - either it should go to everyone or noone. Things like sprinting to get out of an AOE in PVE isn't game breaking but being able to sprint between capture points or sprint the ball across the goal is overpowered. I don't think handing out sprints via the legacy system is how it should be handled - just disable these abilities in warzones. how is a friendly pull more overpowered then a hostile pull? or then a hostile leap? or a friendly leap? at the end its all the same.... still ppl only whine about the sorcerers pull... not all the rest. like said before: if you whine you have to remove all of those tools. which leaves us with a very very very boring game. in fact why not remove all classes and all skills. give everyone 1 hp and 1 attack skill that hits for 1. sounds really exciting... yey.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humankeg Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 how is a friendly pull more overpowered then a hostile pull? or then a hostile leap? or a friendly leap? at the end its all the same.... still ppl only whine about the sorcerers pull... not all the rest. like said before: if you whine you have to remove all of those tools. which leaves us with a very very very boring game. in fact why not remove all classes and all skills. give everyone 1 hp and 1 attack skill that hits for 1. sounds really exciting... yey.... The ability itself itsn't the problem. The ability to chain pull, or to be able to pull a player that is full resolve is the problem. Sorc pulls, we grapple back. Sorc pulls, we grapple back again. Sorc pulls the target at full resolve, we grap... oh wait. Have to sit and watch them score. If there was a pull cool down debuff or if it emptied the resolve bar of the target, that would help. If you can pull, we can pull back. THAT is fair. I already ahve a thread started on this topic outlining my ideas: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=323888 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veyl Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) So you're suggesting that we simultaneously kill 4 sages with 15K+ health each, without them popping 1 GCD. The entire chain lasts ~5 seconds and once the first rescue has been launched, it's almost impossible to catch the carrier. Sure, knocking the sorcs who are chaining off is potentially a solution, but it's hard to see the opposing teams composition before the match even starts, so there's no way to tell if they're setting up without leaving someone behind at the catwalk on literally every single match. This may not be a problem to do with a premade, but in pugs it's hard to convince someone that they need to stay out of the action to watch for a potentially gamebreaking play. So many peoples posts end with obvious anger that I'd even bring this up. Why, so, serious? lol, really? You're telling me within the first minute of a round, you can't tell how many sorcs a team has and which of them actually go to pull their teammates? I've -never- been in a game where more than 2 sorcs will pull their teammates together as a team. Ever. Figuring out who to sit back and slaughter is quite easy and if you cant relay that to your team and have them understand what you're saying, then take the loss. (Or stop pugging.) There is nothing gamebreaking about sorc pull. Huttball advantage? sure. If your team is filled with a bunch of idiots (Much like yourself with the amount of your qq filled posts), I can understand pull being an advantage......................... BUT THEN AGAIN. So would Juggernaut/knight leap -reset- leap again. Or Marauders/sentinels immunity through fire. Or Assassins/shadows immunity sprint. Each player using a skill/ability to the TEAMS ADVANTAGE =/= Gamebreaking. Especially when both sides of the fence have them. There's nothing serious about my posts but I do have one recommendation for you. STOP. PUGGING. BY. YOURSELF. (and the obvious: L2P) Also. After reading the majority of this thread it seems a lot of the QQ folks seem to believe the CD on pull is less than 30 seconds. Amazing. Edited March 8, 2012 by veyl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnugthreeonefive Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 Huttball is just a piece of crap warzone to begin with. The devs will realize this once we get to pick which warzones we want to do. I disagree completely. Huttball is brilliant. It has deeper gameplay that the other WZs, and is thus more interesting. The only problem is that the classes are less well balanced due to their utility, or lack thereof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiro Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 The ability itself itsn't the problem. The ability to chain pull, or to be able to pull a player that is full resolve is the problem. Sorc pulls, we grapple back. Sorc pulls, we grapple back again. Sorc pulls the target at full resolve, we grap... oh wait. Have to sit and watch them score. If there was a pull cool down debuff or if it emptied the resolve bar of the target, that would help. If you can pull, we can pull back. THAT is fair. I already ahve a thread started on this topic outlining my ideas: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=323888 thats actually the first reasonable argument "against friendly pull" i can remember in this entire thread. thanks for that. and i agree with you. emptying the resolve bar or rather stop grapple from filling the bar (didnt actually know that was the case) seems like an option to be discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roccorossi Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I'm sure this has been beat to death, but the fact that this is usable on the ball carrier completely breaks Huttball as a warzone. It's an entirely comp dependant warzone at this point, and if you have leaps/team pulls, you instantly have an advantage, not to mention the insane ranged bias that's already present. Either disable these abilities on the ball carrier, or redesign this gimmick of a map. EDIT: For those that don't read the rest of my posts, I'll just summarize what I believe to be the best way to prevent rescue chain abuse. If there was a debuff placed on the player that was just Rescued, that would not allow the use of rescue on that player for 10-15 seconds. This would allow for a full resolve bar to diminish and give the defending team the possibility of defending past the first pull, as the carrier would either have to pass the ball (and risk the ball getting intercepted or the receiver being pulled/CCed/killed) or try to run it as his resolve bar emptied. Any other ideas that would still leave the ability useful, but still give a tactical edge without being abusable would be greatly appreciated! Single tear for you... I just finshed replying to somone who said grapple is OP..... See a trend here?? Many classes have an ability that is very useful in Huttball AND its preventable.. So you guys dont want Grapple, no friendly pulls, i assume force push is out... Oh force jump is OP to then... Wait Jet charge is out to thats OP, Hey Baddie.. Make some friends get a premade and use these skills to your advantage... Dont come and whine here.. youll get no sympathy from us... And furthermore if you think BIoware is going to remove some of the most fun interactive, fresh combat mechanics in PvP then your *** Crazy... If I was a Dev I would be laughing at your post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaddynnStarr Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) The scenario you've put forward is only possible if they have healers present. The problem there doesn't lie with the abuse of one ability, it lies in your inability to interrupt/stun/cc healers. If you assume that it takes ~30s to get from the center to the goal line, and you're saying this juggernaut took 200k damage, that means he was taking over 6K DPS on average, potentially much higher with cooldown damage spiking. I find everything about that very hard to believe, but again, people don't think before they post ridiculous things. wow... you ever see 2-3 healers keepin a half decently geared tank alive? I take it no since you dont seem to get my post about he damage... it is totally feasable, and just cuz YOU havent encountered it doesnt mean it dont exist... I dont see why you cant stun/cc/knockback a puller... most classes have 1 or multiple of those abilities... its not friggin hard to look up and see the sorc in his pointy hat in the rafters and say to ones self..."hmmm maybe i should pull him down or get to him and Knockback, or range CC him.... Really??? As far as a tank taking 200k damage on a ball run, a good team targets the ball carrier and or healers when the other team has it... its not uncommon at all for that type or amount of dmg to be encountered... especially with 8 people targeting you with all they got... think about it... a sorc does 1-3k dps and i know other classes can match that... so 8 people trargeting that tank is gonna produce a MINIMUM of 8-16k DPS.... now multiply that by the 10-30 seconds it takes that tank to get to the goal line... hmmmsay... thats roughly 160k to 450k dmg isnt it? even avrging it out to account for lapses in judgment or LOS interupts and you get 200-300k... Edited March 8, 2012 by JaddynnStarr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keapoe Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 I love posters like the OP Lets nerf or get ride of something BECAUSE THEY FEEL IT BREAKS 1 WARZONE!! Realize the game is bigger then Huttball and move around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sowwy Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) Even that would be productive at this point, but the fact of the matter is leaps/pulls break that map fundamentally. They remove the need to pass, and just make it a 'give ball to tank, leap, pull, pull score!'. I doubt this was intended but Bioware has shown that they have 0 clue on what constitutes balanced gameplay at this point, so I'm not surprised this hasn't been addressed. They don't break the map, they make the map. What kind of simplistic dynamic would hutball be if we weren't able to manipulate player location. It would be the same boring kill the flag carrier crap and man, did that get boring fast. Here's some tips. Keep your cat walks clean! Be proactive about it. If some character runs ahead of the their ball carrier wielding 1 single bladed lightsaber, guess what;s about to happen? Yep, a pull so at that point, ignore the ball carrier and A) pull the sage back B) knock the sage off C) kill the sage. A ball carrier without support will not likely have enough time to make the goal line without dying, so therefore one should remove their support system. Most players fail at hutball because it actually requires forethought to play well. If you cannot predict the other team's next move, then you'll lose. And that my friend, is what is breaking the game for you. Edited March 8, 2012 by Sowwy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kajimoto Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) As I mentioned yesterday, the OP clearly needs to learn how to play. Or quit and try checkers or something more suitable to his inferior gaming talent. I also love how he says "he's not crying." Correct me if I'm confused here, but going to a forum to complain about a loss in Huttball and requesting the game be changed to suit your lack of ability is NOT crying? Sure... PS -- Hey OP, Bioware is implementing your changes right now due to your moving post. Edited March 8, 2012 by Kajimoto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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