Wow, highest craftable item I make can be picked up from a daily?????

[mattnaik]

The crafting one where I get to go with a group of friends and get mats, or be able to buy them off the GTN if I need to. I always thought end game raiding was about the challenge, no? Silly me, that's right it's only about the 'Hey look-it me I gots shiny shinies and you don't!'

 

It's about a sense of accomplishment AND something to reward you for those accomplishments. It's not a foreign concept really.

[ViperI]

Only realistic solution to both problems is making raids drop non tradeable craft materials and through raids one gets the recipes for such things as well. Just need a way to allow you to craft an item off of someone else's materials which shouldn't be hard. That way crafting makes the best stuff and crafters are needed. But you get the best stuff from raids through crafters. This also keeps people from selling raid crafted gear as its not tradeable and neither are the drops.

 

If it's not tradable and not sellable, why make me jump through the extra hoop of having a crafter assemble the mats that I already have and can't trade? To make a crafter feel good about himself? No thanks.

[Chewpaco]

It's about a sense of accomplishment AND something to reward you for those accomplishments. It's not a foreign concept really.

 

It's about whipping out your epeen, and measuring it with others - plain and simple.

 

If you got your rewards from raiding the most difficult encounter in the game - and those items were obviously only available from that encounter and clearly identifiable - then what do you care if the guy next to you is wearing a crafted item that may have a little bit better stats, that took him 500 hours of grinding mats, reverse engineering items to finally get the schematic?

 

Why do you care? Is his dedication and and passion to crafting, any less valuable than the time you spent raiding?

 

Don't kid yourself. This is an epeen issue. This is wanting recognition amongst strangers in an online community so you can say -"Hey look at me, I am better than you obviously, because I have this gear and you do not." The crafter could easily come back and say - yeah, but everyone clears that content. It is simple. You were carried to welfare epics!

 

How many times have you seen TERRIBLE PLAYERS in other games with excellent gear? I have seen it quite often. Carried much?

 

There is nothing wrong with having a few slots of gear that are BiS reserved for crafters.

[Brutus]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but...

 

Even if a crafter makes his/her "00ber ch3$7piece of Awesome" with 3 empty slots and the critted aug slot, I still need mods to fill it right? And if I want the columni set bonus, I still gotta raid to get the pieces right?

 

Like I said, maybe I'm missing something here (I admit I didn't read ALL the new 1.2 information - a lot, but not all), but I'm not seeing how crafting will kill raiding?

[Narien]

Out of curiousity where did you hear/see that? All I've heard so far is that augments will be "craftable", not which crew skills will make them (if not still slicing).

 

Straight from Georg, I believe it was from the Economy and Crew Skills presentation yesterday, but it might have been one of the other panels..

[Narien]

Like I said, maybe I'm missing something here (I admit I didn't read ALL the new 1.2 information - a lot, but not all), but I'm not seeing how crafting will kill raiding?

 

You're not, raiding and crafting will augment each other for the folks who have to squeeze every last stat point out. For everyone else, they'll end up being mostly on par, except crafted armorings won't have the set bonuses.

[DarthNethus]

Straight from Georg, I believe it was from the Economy and Crew Skills presentation yesterday, but it might have been one of the other panels..

 

 

You are correct.

Here's the link to the DH summary of that particular panel.

 

http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/19973-guild-summit-stream-live-blog/page-6

 

To the OP - Darth Hater is your friend.

[Brutus]

You're not, raiding and crafting will augment each other for the folks who have to squeeze every last stat point out. For everyone else, they'll end up being mostly on par, except crafted armorings won't have the set bonuses.

 

Awesome, sounds like everyone wins then really. I don't see how this is bad at all.

[mattnaik]

It's about whipping out your epeen, and measuring it with others - plain and simple.

 

If you got your rewards from raiding the most difficult encounter in the game - and those items were obviously only available from that encounter and clearly identifiable - then what do you care if the guy next to you is wearing a crafted item that may have a little bit better stats, that took him 500 hours of grinding mats, reverse engineering items to finally get the schematic?

 

Why do you care? Is his dedication and and passion to crafting, any less valuable than the time you spent raiding?

 

Don't kid yourself. This is an epeen issue. This is wanting recognition amongst strangers in an online community so you can say -"Hey look at me, I am better than you obviously, because I have this gear and you do not." The crafter could easily come back and say - yeah, but everyone clears that content. It is simple. You were carried to welfare epics!

 

How many times have you seen TERRIBLE PLAYERS in other games with excellent gear? I have seen it quite often. Carried much?

 

There is nothing wrong with having a few slots of gear that are BiS reserved for crafters.

 

I'm not seeing how crafting by grinding 500 hours of mats to create something isn't equally viewed as whipping out your epeen. "Look at me guys, I spent the last month right clicking things so I can make this totally sweet chest piece that you only see on three other people on this server"

 

I don't view any of it as comparing epeens myself. I realize I may be in the minority in this though. Have you ever bought something that really is completely frivolous only cause you just really wanted it? You don't care if anyone knows you have it. You may show it off to a couple friends but really, you own it because you want it and it makes you happy. That's the same way with high end gear for me.

 

I have no problem with rewarding people for their hard work. But I also believe rewarding people appropriately. Reward the people who complete PvE content with PvE gear to prepare them for harder content. Reward the people who play lots of PvP with PvP gear so they can be better equipped to play more competitively. Why should the crafters get to skip all these steps? It's like working at an office job for 10 years only to have some guy come in and take the position above you because he washed a million cars at his previous job as a car washer. It's counter-intuitive.

[Khadroth]

Straight from Georg, I believe it was from the Economy and Crew Skills presentation yesterday, but it might have been one of the other panels..

 

Aye thanks, went and tracked it down yesterday. I do wonder why they didn't lump in artifice with those though.

[Baelish]

I'm not seeing how crafting by grinding 500 hours of mats to create something isn't equally viewed as whipping out your epeen. "Look at me guys, I spent the last month right clicking things so I can make this totally sweet chest piece that you only see on three other people on this server"

Only the crafter here isn't "whipping" anything out. They're wearing a piece of gear that looks no different from another crewskill 60 gear that took some Grade 1 power crystals or wotnot to make. They get their satisfaction from having the item, not displaying it to others. Needing a "distinct" look for raid gear to feel that it's an appropriate reward is just e-peen waving.

 

...you own it because you want it and it makes you happy. That's the same way with high end gear for me.

So why do you want it to look different? Crit-Crafted moddable gear won't be 'better' than raid gear unless the wearer has done the raid content and snagged the raid rewards, then gutted them for the mods. You'll still have "the best"; it just won't look any different. And I see plenty of complaints about how disappointed people are in the look of their class endgame gear.

 

I have no problem with rewarding people for their hard work. But I also believe rewarding people appropriately. Reward the people who complete PvE content with PvE gear to prepare them for harder content. Reward the people who play lots of PvP with PvP gear so they can be better equipped to play more competitively. Why should the crafters get to skip all these steps? It's like working at an office job for 10 years only to have some guy come in and take the position above you because he washed a million cars at his previous job as a car washer. It's counter-intuitive.

No, you just have a problem with rewarding crafters for their work. Really, unless you're at the very bleeding edge of raid content, raiding isn't exactly any harder than crafting.

[mattnaik]

 

So why do you want it to look different? Crit-Crafted moddable gear won't be 'better' than raid gear unless the wearer has done the raid content and snagged the raid rewards, then gutted them for the mods. You'll still have "the best"; it just won't look any different. And I see plenty of complaints about how disappointed people are in the look of their class endgame gear.

[/Quote]

 

I'm sorry, I completely missed where I said I want it to look different. Maybe you can review my posts and find it. I also think the look of end game gear has nothing to do with the reward of crafting and are completely unrelated.

 

No, you just have a problem with rewarding crafters for their work. Really, unless you're at the very bleeding edge of raid content, raiding isn't exactly any harder than crafting.

 

But my point is that crafting should be rewarded with things appropriate to crafting. Maybe something that allows you to crit more often or something along those lines. If you choose your gaming experience to be centered around crafting, then let your reward be crafting related just like PvP gear is PvP related and PvE gear is PvE related. Yes there is cross-over and PvP gear is still viable in some PvE content and vice-versa. This is also currently true with crafted gear. I just think that crafters being able to create the best high-end stuff for either PvE and PvP content is rewarding people inappropriately.

 

Again, it's my opinion and I don't fault anyone for feeling differently.

[nToxiK]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but...

 

Even if a crafter makes his/her "00ber ch3$7piece of Awesome" with 3 empty slots and the critted aug slot, I still need mods to fill it right? And if I want the columni set bonus, I still gotta raid to get the pieces right?

 

Like I said, maybe I'm missing something here (I admit I didn't read ALL the new 1.2 information - a lot, but not all), but I'm not seeing how crafting will kill raiding?

 

I think so...

 

How I understand it is crafters will be able to make the best gear (potentially) in the game but you will still need to raid to get gear and then pull the mods from that raid gear to stick into your craftable gear.

Edited March 8, 2012 by nToxiK

[Murah]

Crafting is supposed to be interwoven with end game raiding and pvp. It's another source for gear. You've got

- quest rewards (dailies, whatever)

- instance/operation boss drops

- pvp gear grinds

- and crafting

as sources of gear whether you pve or pvp.

 

At each level of a gamer's progression

- noob 50

- having done some hardmodes

- hardmodes + getting dailies done

- throw in some warzone pvp reward action

- having about half battlemaster stuff or operation rewards gear

- having full battlemaster or nightmare mode gear

 

In all those progressions, some of the BIS for your progression level should be craftable gear. It's really supposed to be a mix.

 

so maybe when you're a 50 that's done hardmodes but no instances, the best gear you can get would be these great gloves that a crafter can make, and it's easier to farm the mats than it is to get in an operation group.

 

Move ahead a month, your guild is doing operations and getting lewts. You've replaced the gloves but omgoosness the boss drops a material/schematic for some kick-*** boots.

 

etc. I'm just saying it should be a blend at every level.

[Aiyana]

I'm not seeing how crafting by grinding 500 hours of mats to create something isn't equally viewed as whipping out your epeen. "Look at me guys, I spent the last month right clicking things so I can make this totally sweet chest piece that you only see on three other people on this server"

 

I don't view any of it as comparing epeens myself. I realize I may be in the minority in this though. Have you ever bought something that really is completely frivolous only cause you just really wanted it? You don't care if anyone knows you have it. You may show it off to a couple friends but really, you own it because you want it and it makes you happy. That's the same way with high end gear for me.

 

I have no problem with rewarding people for their hard work. But I also believe rewarding people appropriately. Reward the people who complete PvE content with PvE gear to prepare them for harder content. Reward the people who play lots of PvP with PvP gear so they can be better equipped to play more competitively. Why should the crafters get to skip all these steps? It's like working at an office job for 10 years only to have some guy come in and take the position above you because he washed a million cars at his previous job as a car washer. It's counter-intuitive.

 

Then your the exception , not the rule , go check the forums for this and other games. When ever this argument or any other discussion about making raid/pvp gear not the best you will have people crawling out of the woodwork about it.

 

The majority of PvP / Raiders is all about the epeen sadly and I doubt there is anything that can be done about it as its becoming a ingrained part of gaming in general.

 

My biggest gripe and why I try to avoid these fights is that the PvP / Raider crowd in any game will claim to be the majority and no matter how much you prove otherwise they refuse to believe. Sadly they are not only the most vocal bunch but they are also the bunch that runs out and buys any new game that comes out then moves on meaning those that stay often have to deal with the "Fixes" mad to make them happy even tho they have already moved on

Edited March 8, 2012 by Aiyana

[sensiblepoast]

From your point of view raiding may not be playing the game, but it's one of the most difficult tasks in the game.

 

Lol, pve difficult...

[Zbus]

This is the legacy that games like WOW have left to us. Shame really cause a good crafting game as well as a good raiding game fosters great community interaction and a strong in game economy. But what we are stuck with now and in the future is this you got to raid to get purple gearz noob.

 

Funny thing is SWG had the answer for this a long time ago by makeing crafters just that crafters they did not have the skill set to do hard modes so the gear they made was of no use to them other than to sell to guys who did have the correct skills and could make better use of the items. Problem solved raiders still get the gear and can raid non-stop and the crafters got to do what they enjoy craft.

[Chewpaco]

Then your the exception , not the rule , go check the forums for this and other games. When ever this argument or any other discussion about making raid/pvp gear not the best you will have people crawling out of the woodwork about it.

 

The majority of PvP / Raiders is all about the epeen sadly and I doubt there is anything that can be done about it as its becoming a ingrained part of gaming in general.

 

My biggest gripe and why I try to avoid these fights is that the PvP / Raider crowd in any game will claim to be the majority and no matter how much you prove otherwise they refuse to believe. Sadly they are not only the most vocal bunch but they are also the bunch that runs out and buys any new game that comes out then moves on meaning those that stay often have to deal with the "Fixes" mad to make them happy even tho they have already moved on

 

QFT. This is exactly right. I myself enjoy PvPing and Raiding as well. Do I begrudge crafters? Not a chance. I craft as well. 400 BioChem baby! But I digress.

 

What really infuriates me the most about this gear issue, is the stance some people take and like to identify themselves as.

 

I did not buy SWTOR: The PvP Edition

I did not buy SWTOR: The PvE Edition

I did not buy SWTOR: The Crafters Edition.

 

I purchased SWTOR: The Collectors Edition.

 

In that edition, I can gain epic gear from raiding. I can gain epic gear from PvPing. I can gain Epic gear from crafting. One aspect no more important than the other. The BEST players will participate and accumulate gear on ALL AVENUES.

 

Too bad if you don't like that. Comes right back to e-peen.

[Remulan]

Too bad if you don't like that. Comes right back to e-peen.

 

It actually comes to effort vs. reward. You need 7-15 other people to kill a raid boss. You need yourself to craft something.

 

Which should logically be more rewarding?

[afootdoc]

Yep OP. When I realized this I expected it to be taken out of the game as soon as BW realized their mistake. Several months later the vendors still sell them.

[Dotless]

Well no one is forcing you to pay for the game. If your sick of it then leave mate.

[Spero-Mcgee]

It actually comes to effort vs. reward. You need 7-15 other people to kill a raid boss. You need yourself to craft something.

 

Which should logically be more rewarding?

 

Considering the mats requirement the RNG probably still on it getting the shemantics even with patch 1.2, getting the shemantics you dont want/need.

Its not hard in any stretch of the imagination but the sheer amount of time spent sending your companions to get the mats you need to make all that gear?

And thats just making the regular purple or orange gear, getting a fully augmented set is going to take a while. Whereas if loot goes your way during raiding you can get kited out in less than a month. And this is assuming your just crafting for your own personal use, which might mean not just your main and its companions but alts as well.

That is if your friends and guildies dont require your services as well.

The time investment on crafting especially going for the specific augmented gear will take a significantly longer time. Especially for those that don't have alot of time to play the game to begin with. Granted you could use all your unspent creds to buy said gear, assuming you got millions to spent and that the gear that can be made isnt BOP.

[Remulan]

Considering the mats requirement the RNG probably still on it getting the shemantics even with patch 1.2, getting the shemantics you dont want/need.

Its not hard in any stretch of the imagination but the sheer amount of time spent sending your companions to get the mats you need to make all that gear?

And thats just making the regular purple or orange gear, getting a fully augmented set is going to take a while. Whereas if loot goes your way during raiding you can get kited out in less than a month. And this is assuming your just crafting for your own personal use, which might mean not just your main and its companions but alts as well.

That is if your friends and guildies dont require your services as well.

The time investment on crafting especially going for the specific augmented gear will take a significantly longer time. Especially for those that don't have alot of time to play the game to begin with. Granted you could use all your unspent creds to buy said gear, assuming you got millions to spent and that the gear that can be made isnt BOP.

 

None of what you wrote changes the fact that it takes 7-15 OTHER people spending their time helping you to obtain raid loot where as you can craft without ever even looking at another person's character in game.

 

And you really think crafting should be rewarded as well? You don't even have to be online for your companions to be gathering mats or making things for you. At least other games made you actually be logged in to the game to make things and gather materials.

[Aiyana]

None of what you wrote changes the fact that it takes 7-15 OTHER people spending their time helping you to obtain raid loot where as you can craft without ever even looking at another person's character in game.

 

And you really think crafting should be rewarded as well? You don't even have to be online for your companions to be gathering mats or making things for you. At least other games made you actually be logged in to the game to make things and gather materials.

 

7-15 other people means you had help and your reward should be divided among the people in said group no matter if the leeched or not. So yes by your own definition crafting a solo aspect of the game should reward more then raiding.

[Ka-tel]

It's about whipping out your epeen, and measuring it with others - plain and simple.

 

If you got your rewards from raiding the most difficult encounter in the game - and those items were obviously only available from that encounter and clearly identifiable - then what do you care if the guy next to you is wearing a crafted item that may have a little bit better stats, that took him 500 hours of grinding mats, reverse engineering items to finally get the schematic?

 

Why do you care? Is his dedication and and passion to crafting, any less valuable than the time you spent raiding?

 

Don't kid yourself. This is an epeen issue. This is wanting recognition amongst strangers in an online community so you can say -"Hey look at me, I am better than you obviously, because I have this gear and you do not." The crafter could easily come back and say - yeah, but everyone clears that content. It is simple. You were carried to welfare epics!

 

How many times have you seen TERRIBLE PLAYERS in other games with excellent gear? I have seen it quite often. Carried much?

 

There is nothing wrong with having a few slots of gear that are BiS reserved for crafters.

 

LOL, oh please... NOTHING will ever take 500 hours of gathering to create--ever. If such an item ever existed, people like you who don't want to work for things (i.e. raid etc.) will whine and complain to no end until it gets nerfed for you.

 

Raiding is the hardest thing to do in this game. Raiding should offer the best gear and rewards, period.

 

What in the world do you want to be rewarded for? Running around gathering mats from nodes? Sending your companions out and never having to leave fleet? LOL, that's a joke and a half and you know it.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Ka-tel