PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Andryah]

People should be able to see a combat log that shows what is happening in the entire raid/party, not just themselves.

 

Negative Ghostrider.

[DamenX]

i clicked on the poll to vote yes and it said i already voted lol ... i'm not sure u wanna use this to judge this poll.

[Caladax]

- combat logs: I vote NO.

- DPS meters: HUGE NO

- threat meters and the like: HUGE NO NO and NO

 

 

 

This sentence you added solely for the purpose of being able to tell anyone who disagrees with you how wrong they are for their opinion.

 

My reasons: this bit about combat logs only being usable by that player is an ideal but unrealistic dream. Someone WILL figure out how to get someone else's information or simply demand they display it in chat so they can pass their oh-so-holy judgement on it.

 

DPS meters because too many do not use interrupts and cc powers as they are more concerned with getting to the top of a pointless list instead of using the abilities they should.

 

Threat meters because they dumb down the game. Threat information, displayed on screen in real time is really the epitome of making the game for dummies. If you need a threat meter, L2P.

 

The curious case of an elitist stance against meters..

 

Here's what I'm wondering about the L2P comment: you say that people who need threat meters should L2P, but it's only high dps players that would need a threat meter, right? I mean, if you're low damage, then you probably won't pull threat (unless the tank is really bad). Now, you might say "wait longer" which is fine for ops with a tank you're used to, but in pugs, or when you're really trying to ride the edge of dps, that's not really feasible.

 

I don't really understand what you mean by L2P for people who want threat meters. Do you mean L2DoLessDPS? or L2WaitLongerPointlesslyInFearOfPullingThreat?

 

What does L2P have to do with threat meters?

[DamenX]

As for my opinion ya we need real combat logs and recount. It adds flavor and competition to raiding that is just friendly fun just like every other game. Honeslty raiding is completely dull without recount imo. Maybe the first 2 times u run them they are fun but after that it just becomes reptitive.

[Nippon]

I vote NO on combat logs.

 

This....Im hopefully playing a grownup ish MMO...

 

Not hello kitty online...

 

I have a calculator and Maths to work my stats and damage out...

Edited March 7, 2012 by Nippon

[Etapi]

As for my opinion ya we need real combat logs and recount. It adds flavor and competition to raiding that is just friendly fun just like every other game. Honeslty raiding is completely dull without recount imo. Maybe the first 2 times u run them they are fun but after that it just becomes reptitive.

 

And combat logs will change that how? Seriously, you want to stroke an epeen, go play WoW. Nothing I loved more than seeing people constantly post meaningless combat logs in general chat /sarcasm.

 

Knowing your performance is more than enough to help defeat content. There is no reason to add more.

[Kaphik]

You don't need a dps meter or threat meter, all you need is a flowchart: http://homepage.mac.com/helion/blog/fcf_082809.jpg

[TheSwamper]

The curious case of an elitist stance against meters..

 

Here's what I'm wondering about the L2P comment: you say that people who need threat meters should L2P, but it's only high dps players that would need a threat meter, right? I mean, if you're low damage, then you probably won't pull threat (unless the tank is really bad). Now, you might say "wait longer" which is fine for ops with a tank you're used to, but in pugs, or when you're really trying to ride the edge of dps, that's not really feasible.

 

I don't really understand what you mean by L2P for people who want threat meters. Do you mean L2DoLessDPS? or L2WaitLongerPointlesslyInFearOfPullingThreat?

 

What does L2P have to do with threat meters?

 

If I'm DPS'ing, and I'm watching a meter on every attack and trying to stay juuuust below what the meter tells me, that's MUCH easier (and teaches nothing) than having to judge how often I can spam my high damage strikes, and need to offset them with lower ones intentionally.

 

All I have to do with a threat meter is make sure I stay below the tank number displayed on my list, requiring no thinking at all. Without that threat meter, I have to watch more carefully, make judgement calls, etc. MUCH more interesting (and more difficult) IMO.

[Wolfeisberg]

As for my opinion ya we need real combat logs and recount. It adds flavor and competition to raiding that is just friendly fun just like every other game. Honeslty raiding is completely dull without recount imo. Maybe the first 2 times u run them they are fun but after that it just becomes reptitive.

 

Don't worry, you'll be able to do that when someone creates a program that will parse the information in real time and you'll be able to share that with your guild mates, heck I wouldn't doubt someone will figure out how to make it so you can transfer the information from the parser to the guild/op chat.

[fungihoujo]

Still no- dps meters are not unlike medals in pvp- there's a reason most of the people bragging about hitting 1 million damage in a WZ also have a big 'DEFEAT' at the top of the screen. If pushing out big numbers is all that matters to you, chances are you aren't part of a top end raid guild, and are instead one of the thousands who played WoW and kicked the player who was doing 10k while the others were doing 12k dps in your group, then wondered why suddenly nothing is being CCed, nobody is spot healing, and that new person doing 16k isn't enough to make up for the fact that the sheeped enemy keeps getting broken by aoe.

 

 

Switching targets, bursting an enemy that needs to die fast over AoEing, CCing, not breaking CC, not standing in fire- THESE are what matter, and DPS meters do not show you that, and they tend to encourage people to play far from that mindset because 'lolnumbers' means you're 'good'.

[NoxiousAlby]

What does it matter the squeky wheel has already received indication that they will be receiving

- greater level of difficulty

- gear upgardes for nightmare mode

- pvp upgrades only available through ranked WZ

- greater group content

As time goes on this game is becoming more like wow every month with each new announcement. With greater difficulty BW will be forced into allowing addons and real combat logs, then to follow will be the complete set of macros.

 

If players want a Wow style of game then why not just play wow? The potential was there to create an alternative game to attract different types of players. But this is becoming even more remote with every decision being made, again you have failed to adhere to Lesson#4.

 

So might as well allow addons and real combat logs right now, because otherwise you will be rescinding your decision a few months down the track when all the QQ starts about how difficult nightmare modes are and that players cant do them without addons & combat logs. You have dug your grave, already you caved far to much and are now heading for the slippery slope.

[Caladax]

If I'm DPS'ing, and I'm watching a meter on every attack and trying to stay juuuust below what the meter tells me, that's MUCH easier (and teaches nothing) than having to judge how often I can spam my high damage strikes, and need to offset them with lower ones intentionally.

 

All I have to do with a threat meter is make sure I stay below the tank number displayed on my list, requiring no thinking at all. Without that threat meter, I have to watch more carefully, make judgement calls, etc. MUCH more interesting (and more difficult) IMO.

 

Except since you have no idea what the tank is doing, or how much threat he is generating, you have no way to accurately judge anything. All you can do is some even more mindless thing like "wait ten seconds, then dps" or "wait for three sunders" or something like that. Judgement calls with zero information are meaningless. If you say, "I have information, I know that if I do x dps, I pull off the tank", there are two problems. 1, you're against meters, so you don't know how much dps you're doing, and how any gear changes, or buffs present/missing effect your dps, and 2, since the tank's gear also changes, and he may have an off night, or is really better tonight, or is a different tank, or any number of things, you have, actually, no solid information to make your judgement call on.

 

You're basically saying that going by your gut is better than going by your head (or, being a superstitious pigeon is better than using real information and thinking about what to do based off of it).

[terminova]

People should be able to see a combat log that shows what is happening in the entire raid/party, not just themselves.

 

Look at my analogy. Its like asking a captain of a team to help other people when he can only see himself play. In anything competitive, a leader is able to view his team and help critique/improve.

 

The only time combat logs can actually be helpful for improvement is AFTER a run, not during. After a run they can be analyzed thoroughly. Very few times will they be of any use during a run, and the "captain" can ask for the rest of the Guild member's logs that were on the run after the run is complete. See how that works?

 

Also, there is no need for people pugging to actually worry about what someone else is doing combat wise because the content doesn't require optimal anything until high end content is reached.

Edited March 7, 2012 by terminova

[TheSwamper]

 

You're basically saying that going by your gut is better than going by your head (or, being a superstitious pigeon is better than using real information and thinking about what to do based off of it).

 

Not at all. I'm saying that the information you want makes it too easy. You should have to think and figure it out for yourself, and not have a display meter figure it out for you.

[DamenX]

I vote no.

 

If future "difficult content" requires log parsing and threat meters then I'm afraid that it is poor content, badly designed, in my view.

 

Theres 3 different difficulty's for a reason. If that "your view" then fine Play normal. But its not bad design to make the harder content need stuff like this and offer players who want challenge a challenge and allow us the ability to lead are raids with proper tools.

See how quick the fights get boring when every fight is tank n spank with a move outta this circle on the ground. That is poor desin in my view.

Edited March 7, 2012 by DamenX

[CeruleanNite]

I vote no.

 

They are not needed.

[Peacenote]

Yes to combat logs!!! FULL combat logs where you can see what has happened to everyone.

 

If I am understanding this correctly, a log that only shows what happens to me helps me not at all as a healer. I don't really CARE what happens to me most of the time. What I want to know is what happened to other members in my group if I failed to keep them healed. What did they take damage from? Were they receiving other heals? What debuffs are hitting them? Etc., etc. As a healer, only caring about what happened to myself is rather selfish because my job is to keep the team alive!

 

Not to mention those comedic moments when Monster X hits you for 123456789. I've always loved those screenshots!

 

Personally I care not if people are evaluating my numbers and if you are a pain about it, I won't group with you again. No big deal for me. Jerks will find something to complain about whether there are combat logs or not. But I like suggesting useful compromises so here is my idea:

 

What if folks had the ability to shield exact numbers from group combat logs? You know, so you could see how much the mobs are hitting you for, and you could see if your heals landed and the order in which things happened, but the entry for HOW much dmg you did or HOW much you healed was X or 0 to the group if you choose to hide your numbers. Or perhaps it isn't a preference and by default you can only see numbers related to yourself. Either way. Your log would look like:

• Smokey's Smokin' Attack hit EVILMONSTER1 for X.
  
• EVILMONSTER1's Evil Attack hit CoolCat for 3000.
  
• MagicJedi's Magic Heal healed CoolCat for X.
  

Generally, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know who isn't doing a good job. In most cases you don't need exact numbers to figure out who is lagging behind and needs to learn. Getting an idea of rotation and gear should tell you enough to make suggestions to struggling teammates. Plus numbers don't tell the whole story anyway. But knowing what happened when can help a lot with strategies and self improvement, and you are definitely not getting the whole story if you are playing in a group and only seeing what happened to yourself. Especially if you are healing!

 

PS. Personal opinion here: I do hate threat meters. I've always found them inaccurate, and staring at one is not how I want to play. I think having a combat log showing if someone is using taunt abilities when they shouldn't be is enough. If you don't see exact DPS numbers, people won't be focused on topping charts, and needing a threat meter to push the envelope as much as possible without going over should be less necessary. I will not debate you for hours if you love them, but that IS one thing I think the game is better off without.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Peacenote

[Wolfeisberg]

Yes to combat logs!!! FULL combat logs where you can see what has happened to everyone.

 

If I am understanding this correctly, a log that only shows what happens to me helps me not at all as a healer. I don't really CARE what happens to me most of the time. What I want to know is what happened to other members in my group if I failed to keep them healed. What did they take damage from? Were they receiving other heals? What debuffs are hitting them? Etc., etc. As a healer, only caring about what happened to myself is rather selfish because my job is to keep the team alive!

 

Not to mention those comedic moments when Monster X hits you for 123456789. I've always loved those screenshots!

 

Personally I care not if people are evaluating my numbers and if you are a pain about it, I won't group with you again. No big deal for me. Jerks will find something to complain about whether there are combat logs or not. But I like suggesting useful compromises so here is my idea:

 

What if folks had the ability to shield exact numbers from group combat logs? You know, so you could see how much the mobs are hitting you for, and you could see if your heals landed and the order in which things happened, but the entry for HOW much dmg you did or HOW much you healed was X or 0 to the group if you choose to hide your numbers. Or perhaps it isn't a preference and by default you can only see numbers related to yourself. Either way. Your log would look like:

• Smokey's Smokin' Attack hit EVILMONSTER1 for X.
  
• EVILMONSTER1's Evil Attack hit CoolCat for 3000.
  
• MagicJedi's Magic Heal healed CoolCat for X.
  

Generally, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know who isn't doing a good job. In most cases you don't need exact numbers to figure out who is lagging behind and needs to learn. Getting an idea of rotation and gear should tell you enough to make suggestions to struggling teammates. Plus numbers don't tell the whole story anyway. But knowing what happened when can help a lot with strategies and self improvement, and you are definitely not getting the whole story if you are playing in a group and only seeing what happened to yourself. Especially if you are healing!

 

PS. Personal opinion here: I do hate threat meters. I've always found them inaccurate, and staring at one is not how I want to play. I think having a combat log showing if someone is using taunt abilities when they shouldn't be is enough. If you don't see exact DPS numbers, people won't be focused on topping charts, and needing a threat meter to push the envelope as much as possible without going over should be less necessary. I will not debate you for hours if you love them, but that IS one thing I think the game is better off without.

 

The combat log can be parsed outside of the game and then you can send that parse file to anyone you want. There is already people on this very thread stated they will create a program to make everything easier. So you'll still be able to get all your information you want when your guild uses a program to parse everyone's information.

[Hanscholo]

No interested.

 

I want to play an RPG, i dont want to have to pour thru combat logs.

[JediElf]

The only time combat logs can actually be helpful for improvement is AFTER a run, not during. After a run they can be analyzed thoroughly. Very few times will they be of any use during a run, and the "captain" can ask for the rest of the Guild member's logs that were on the run after the run is complete. See how that works?

 

Also, there is no need for people pugging to actually worry about what someone else is doing combat wise because the content doesn't require optimal anything until high end content is reached.

 

Exactly.

[Peacenote]

The combat log can be parsed outside of the game and then you can send that parse file to anyone you want. There is already people on this very thread stated they will create a program to make everything easier. So you'll still be able to get all your information you want when your guild uses a program to parse everyone's information.

 

I should maybe state that I am a pretty casual player in this particular game, although I have raided in others. Usually I am playing with a friend with our two companions out, trying to beat content above our level for a challenge. And I'm having a blast with this game but definitely miss scrolling through the logs to see what happened in certain cases. I don't want to parse data outside of the game. I'm not taking the game THAT seriously!! After a wipe, I want to scroll quickly through the log to see if my last heal landed, what killed my friend, or how my companion died. I'm not a hard-core raider here...I just want to know what happened while or right after it happened, so I can try my second attempt a little differently!

 

I just noticed that it seemed like a lot of people against the logs are concerned about their specific numbers being analyzed, so I was curious if the idea of no real numbers being recorded for players might be a good compromise. That would give us real combat logs for events and the order of them, but keep us out of dmg and threat meter territory.

[uniz]

i vote NO. what they are intending to put in will satisfy myself and my guildies needs for raiding. our raid core didnt come from wow and are all ex high end raiders from eq2 who now play casually.

 

a threat meater would be nice since

 

1) the mechanic we use target of target doesnt exist in this game as of now.

 

2) it is easier for new mmo players to help manage thier agro

 

3) too many players havnt learned to play without one and are addon addicted.

 

i can play with or with out a dps meter. for myself it isnt needed but that doesnt mean they dont have thier uses.

 

however, they tend to be highly abused by those who think they are better players than they really are. too many players are unwilling to help those with lower dps out and lack the social skills to go about it in a diplomatic manner. in other words too many elitist jeks abuse it. there is no way to stop this. a jerk without a meter is still a jerk.

 

sooner or later this game will have both threat and dps meters. it is only a matter of time.

[Fugara]

Bioware programmers aren't capable of writing such code so forget it?

[Jackobite]

I vote No

[Loendar]

If we are voting (I'm actually stunned this thread hasn't been closed - I thought they had a rule about player-made polls) then I vote NO to 'real' combat logs.

 

What they are presenting is sufficient and gives the power to the individual player and not the random PUG leader.