PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Starglide]

POLL

 

I want to create this poll to try and get a sensus on combat logs and the importance of real logs along with DPS meters, threat meters and the like. Please keep this discussion civil. Below is what I wrote in the UI thread from the guild summit.

 

Understand, currently the new logs are only accessable outside of the game and only display information that has happened to you. (ie the "what happened to me" button in WoW's combat log). DO NOT VOTE if you do not understand combat logs, what kind of combat logs they are implementing (only self, a lot of people do not understand this as I have read from answers to other threads), or if you intend to troll.

 

NOTE:

 

Combat logs serve important for the future of DPS meters, threat meters and all around important additions that will help improve the overall performance of players, knowledge of players and most importantly CONTROL of your character.

 

Also understand that it will be MORE DIFFICULT for BioWare to implement TRULY difficult content with more engaging mechanics without the use of combat logs and logging for improvement.

 

PLEASE KEEP IN MIND. Combat logs are used for a plethora of other things besides seeing what someone did wrong. People may misuse combat logs just like they may misuse any other feature a game may provide. This is not a valid argument against the use of combat logs as the benefits severely outweigh the disadvantages. BioWare has created a difficulty setting separate from progression, gearing up and the 'hard core'. It is called STORY MODE. With combat log implemented, no one in this mode will be using it to critique or criticize other playersdue to the demographic within. There is NO NEED for someone who takes the game seriously to do STORY MODE. Therefore, there is no need to take something away from the players of HARD MODE and NIGHTMARE MODE. You are asking BioWare to penalize a certain playstyle to support your own when there is an entirely separate model created just for you that will avoid everything you are afraid of.

BioWare, the changes to 1.2 have me very excited, but your stance on combat logs, threat meters and DPS meters are incredible skewed. A lot of people at the event seem to be in awe about the presence of developers and are not shooting it straight with you.

 

Meters and logs are INCREDIBLE important for leading. You state you do not want people to be judged by this statement, but it directly contradicts your whole philosophy on having separate difficulty levels. You created story mode for those who should not be judged by skills or numbers, but the other difficulties as you stated ARE FOR PROGRESSION. These tools are absolutely DETRIMENTAL to progressing at an incredibly competitive level. Not to mention, not only does logs help others judge another player, but it also allows us to deduce what went wrong. How do you expect a raid leader to try to advance his guild synergy and execution without being able to see what everyone is doing.

 

It is like asking a baseball captain to direct a team to the championship but only allowing him to see himself play ball. Other MMOs have been incredible successful and have these tools. There is absolutely not reason for you to exclude this. Unless you are aiming for casuals to be competing at end game (which is ridiculous), this game will be laughable at any serious competitive level. Any person I have spoken to (verbally) who is again traditional combat logs and meters is extremely arrogant, inexperienced and exaggerates his performance displaying lack of assumption about the genre and classes as a whole (ie thinking his class does most damage).

 

Please reevaluate your stance on combat logs, meters and addons for that matter.

 

 

HONORABLE MENTIONS:

 

FOR COMBAT LOGS:

 

This is so obvious, it's painful at this point. I'm just going to have to lay it down for that vocal majority who are against combat logs because you guys are too much.

 

First off, it's very disappointing to see that in this age of information and analysis, a majority of people are against combat logs which scientifically quantify every action you perform in the game. This is invaluable on so many levels, I shouldn't even have to explain the benefits gained from such knowledge.

 

But that resistance to change, that negativity, that fear of numbers has to come from somewhere. The vocal majority who are advocating against the implementation of a public combat log are keeping this stance because of the likelihood of a negative personal (or anecdotal) experience directly related to the combat log. Whether it'd be being called out for performing poorly during an encounter or being called out due to dishing out low DPS or crappy heals across the board, that seems to be the only logical conclusion. For that vocal majority, the combat log is an impediment to their progress within the game; since they see a game as a medium simply to be used for entertainment, more complex analyses simply have no place in this game. Okay, valid argument: you want to keep the game simple and do not care about the historical, quantifiable data behind every single one of your encounters. But that, my friends, is called ignorance.

 

Now, let's investigate the opposite end of the spectrum.

 

Currently, http://www.sithwarrior.com -- all you combat log haters should head there, you might learn a thing or two about your class -- is the only website with any kind of theorycrafting and given the abysmal amount of data available to players, the folks over at SithWarrior have done an incredible job in figuring out all of the mathematical formulas behind each ability; how threat is generated beyond the vague words of Stephen Reid that "taunting automatically puts you on top of the threat table;" and created a complex and complete Excel sheet which lets you theorycraft potential builds given different sets of gear. This is amazing. You see, some people like to discover thing; they like to analyze and understand the consequences behind their actions whether it'd be in a virtual world or the real world. By vocally rallying against the implementation of a standard, public combat log, you are essentially giving the middle finger to statistical and mathematical concepts which developers use every-fricking-day to keep this game running. The irony doesn't get better than that.

 

A good example of what the community over at SithWarrior has done was to debunk the general understanding behind the Taunt mechanic. The process was excruciatingly manual and simply laughable given all of the automation available to us: a few good members of this community actively spent hours hitting Champion mobs in Tatooine and manually recorded every single ability and its related damage; every single parry/dodge/resist; and every attack and damage done by the mob. This was not done in an hour. It took days. And they still discovered the mathematical equation behind Taunting. Now imagine if those folks had a combat log, they could provide us with 100% accurate data that is not reliant on manual human entry that is prone to error. So even though they were able to come up with an equation regarding threat, it is still hypothetical, or in essence theoretical, and cannot be proven with 100% certainty. It's speculation but solid speculation.

 

Anyways, the folks advocating against a combat log fall in the same category of folks who wanted Galileo to be burned alive at the stake for claiming that the earth was round and that it revolved around the sun and not the other way around.

 

AGAINST COMBAT LOGS:

 

I read it and my point stands.

 

They don't have logs and they have found other ways to analyze the data and by their own admission 'figure stuff out'. That's how all of these games used to be before people started requiring the Devs to tell them exactly what is happening in painful detail.

 

Back in the early days of these games (I remember EQ1 specifically) they didn't give you jack for numbers AND the Devs stood firm telling the player community that supplying that information would just turn it into a math game. They eventually broke down and provided that information.. and guess what? They were 100 percent correct on what would happen.

 

You don't NEED to know everything that is happening to effectively play the game. You aren't a better player because you know it than anyone else that doesn't know it - you are better informed but you aren't really 'playing' the game anymore anyway... you are playing the numbers.

 

DEVELOPER RESPONSES:

 

None

Edited March 8, 2012 by Starglide

[coldmiser]

No. Don't turn this into WoW!

[Wyomorph]

I am in favor of combat logs for MY character, and DPS/Threat meters for use by the Ops leader...only if they are in-game features, not add-ons.

 

We do not need another game where people are told you must have add-ons X and Y in order to be in this Ops group, etc.

[Morvishin]

No. Don't turn this into WoW!

 

/agree

[Starglide]

No. Don't turn this into WoW!

 

Because WoW invented combat logs and is the only game that has them? Please read my entire post.

 

 

I am in favor of combat logs for MY character, and DPS/Threat meters for use by the Ops leader...only if they are in-game features, not add-ons.

 

We do not need another game where people are told you must have add-ons X and Y in order to be in this Ops group, etc.

 

Dude, I am not talking about addons. Please read the OP.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Starglide

[Drewser]

To me the best solution is a toggle that allows people to share their info if they want but it is not compulsory.

[Ravoss]

You got personal logs so that you can see how you are doing? What more do you need?

 

Personally I really like the decision BW has made with only showing me mine, I like it. I want to CHOOSE who can see how I am doing.

[itekazzawrrlic]

POLL

 

I want to create this poll to try and get a sensus on combat logs and the importance of real logs along with DPS meters, threat meters and the like. Please keep this discussion civil. Below is what I wrote in the UI thread from the guild summit.

 

Understand, currently the new logs are only accessable outside of the game and only display information that has happened to you. (ie the "what happened to me" button in WoW's combat log). DO NOT VOTE if you do not understand combat logs, what kind of combat logs they are implementing (only self, a lot of people do not understand this as I have read from answers to other threads), or if you intend to troll.

 

NOTE:

 

Combat logs serve important for the future of DPS meters, threat meters and all around important additions that will help improve the overall performance of players, knowledge of players and most importantly CONTROL of your character.

 

Also understand that it will be MORE DIFFICULT for BioWare to implement TRULY difficult content with more engaging mechanics without the use of combat logs and logging for improvement.

 

I vote NO on combat logs.

[Srqt]

I like the way they are doing it.

[Starglide]

To me the best solution is a toggle that allows people to share their info if they want but it is not compulsory.

 

People should be able to see a combat log that shows what is happening in the entire raid/party, not just themselves.

 

Look at my analogy. Its like asking a captain of a team to help other people when he can only see himself play. In anything competitive, a leader is able to view his team and help critique/improve.

 

I am sorry, but if you do not want other people to know what you are doing wrong or help you, then competitive ANYTHING is not for you.

 

I don't understand. If this implementation was executed in ANYTHING ELSE besides a video game, then it would be unacceptable. And don't say it is because you pay to play. BioWare has included a Story Mode just for you.

 

You got personal logs so that you can see how you are doing? What more do you need?

 

Personally I really like the decision BW has made with only showing me mine, I like it. I want to CHOOSE who can see how I am doing.

 

I answer that question in my OP. Read it.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Starglide

[ferroz]

Personally, I'm pretty indifferent.

 

I'd say that allowing these sort of combat logs with some ability to toggle off your own data showing in other people logs is the best compromise. It will make most people happy, and the only ones who are unhappy have an expectation of controlling other people that isn't reasonable.

 

No. Don't turn this into WoW!

how is this turning into wow? I mean, these sort of logs have been in most MMOs, especially the highly successful ones.

 

I mean... in that context, it's like you's saying: "No, Don't turn this into a successful MMO" ... which is just silly, since it's already a fairly successful mmo.

Edited March 6, 2012 by ferroz

[Starglide]

The biggest thing here is everyone is incorporating combat logs with DAMAGE METERS. Combat logs not only allows a leader to see WHAT YOU DID, but also allows to see WHAT WAS DONE TO YOU.

[Starglide]

how is this turning into wow? I mean, these sort of logs have been in most MMOs, especially the highly successful ones.

 

I mean... in that context, it's like you's saying: "No, Don't turn this into a successful MMO" ... which is just silly, since it's already a fairly successful mmo.

 

Or its like asking for a character creation and someone saying "NO DONT TURN THIS INTO WOW"... like WOW is the only one that has it. Its such a foolish response really and show the lack of experience/knowledge most people that post have.

[Silvafox]

No

 

I just want to enjoy playing the game without having some jerk give my toon a colonoscopy every time they start feeling self righteous (Which is most of the time).

 

Been there. Done that. Got the T-Shirt, and ran like hell away to a *new* MMO that did not encourage such behavior.

 

Leave well enough alone.

 

KTHXBAI

[DigitalPrime]

POLL

 

I want to create this poll to try and get a sensus on combat logs and the importance of real logs along with DPS meters, threat meters and the like. Please keep this discussion civil. Below is what I wrote in the UI thread from the guild summit.

 

Understand, currently the new logs are only accessable outside of the game and only display information that has happened to you. (ie the "what happened to me" button in WoW's combat log). DO NOT VOTE if you do not understand combat logs, what kind of combat logs they are implementing (only self, a lot of people do not understand this as I have read from answers to other threads), or if you intend to troll.

 

NOTE:

 

Combat logs serve important for the future of DPS meters, threat meters and all around important additions that will help improve the overall performance of players, knowledge of players and most importantly CONTROL of your character.

 

Also understand that it will be MORE DIFFICULT for BioWare to implement TRULY difficult content with more engaging mechanics without the use of combat logs and logging for improvement.

 

Agreed 100%

[Wyomorph]

Starglide...it really looks like instead of a "poll" to sample the community and see what side the majority is on with regards to this issue, what you wanted was to argue with people about it.

 

People are "voting"...some say "yes", some say "no"...some say "yes, but only if..."

 

Isn't that what you asked for? Why the need to argue back at every post that disagrees with you and basically insult us by telling us we don't know what we are talking about just because you don't like our response?

 

Plus...I was even on your side...mostly.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Wyomorph

[KrelosDarksky]

No. Don't turn this into WoW!

 

/agree

[Galbatorrix]

I say no in general. It really does encourage griefing when a lot of the time, the content is too easy for one DPS lagging behind to matter.

 

 

I wouldn't be against some sort of "guild only" combat log. Where you can share your own DPS meter with guildies. This way, guild runs could use it to be progressive but puggs couldn't demand you show yours or be booted from the group.

[Cindikle]

Didn't they state that combat logs are coming in 1.2 and an in game damage meter/combat statistic function sometime after that?

 

And those combat logs in 1.2 will be phrase-able. (Like how rift and EQ did it for so long).

 

People saying no:

I'm sorry you had a bad past with damage meters, but they help more than they hurt in the right hands.

How is a player to improve if he doesn't know that his DPS is lower than everyone else?

How is a player to decide what stat is better if they can't find how effective each stat is?

How is a guild to find their weak link that need improving that is holding them back?

How is a guild to know if their healers are doing their jobs(assigned targets).

How is a tank to know what exactly killed him and how he can better defend from it.

 

Good players learn from damage meters.

 

Bad players hide from them. Or pick the easiest/FOTM class they can and bag about their DPS.

 

As a side effect of having combat logs. Think of the early WoW days. If you got though the QQ about bugs and servers you would find threads on theory crafting and number crunching. Even patches up to before I quit it would always have people going on to figure out the changes. It brings together the community and helps get rid of those QQ threads. Which betters the game as a whole.

[Starglide]

Starglide...it really looks like instead of a "poll" to sample the community and see what side the majority is on with regards to this issue, what you wanted was to argue with people about it.

 

People are "voting"...some say "yes", some say "no"...some say "yes, but only if..."

 

Isn't that what you asked for? Why the need to argue back at every post that disagrees with you and basically insult us by telling us we don't know what we are talking about just because you don't like our response?

 

Plus...I was even on your side...mostly.

 

I am only arguing with the people who are voting but not understand what the combat log actually does. Also, I created the poll to try and get it to developers eyes so hopefully I can make a change for the better. If that means explaining to people what the function of combat logs truly are and helping sway some opinions conjured through confusion, then so be it--call it arguing.

 

I see it as debating and I don't mean to be rude, but I say most of this in the OP. Also, if you agree then please vote since you have not.

[Drewser]

People should be able to see a combat log that shows what is happening in the entire raid/party, not just themselves.

 

Look at my analogy. Its like asking a captain of a team to help other people when he can only see himself play. In anything competitive, a leader is able to view his team and help critique/improve.

 

I am sorry, but if you do not want other people to know what you are doing wrong or help you, then competitive ANYTHING is not for you.

 

I don't understand. If this implementation was executed in ANYTHING ELSE besides a video game, then it would be unacceptable. And don't say it is because you pay to play. BioWare has included a Story Mode just for you.

 

I don't care one way or the other but a toggle is still the best solution.

 

There are people that care and they are paying just as much as you and I are to play. If they don't want to share their log, you don't need to group with them.

 

By the way, your analogy using the captain of a team stinks. Some people play sports/games solely for recreation and are not there to be coached but simply to enjoy themselves. MMO's are not a competition for everyone.

 

I get that some people like the competitive nature of them and that is fine but don't paint everyone with the same brush.

 

I fully expect our guild to share logs to help each other out.

[Starglide]

I say no in general. It really does encourage griefing when a lot of the time, the content is too easy for one DPS lagging behind to matter.

 

 

I wouldn't be against some sort of "guild only" combat log. Where you can share your own DPS meter with guildies. This way, guild runs could use it to be progressive but puggs couldn't demand you show yours or be booted from the group.

 

It does not cause griefing and what you are describing as griefing is not what the term means.

[coldmiser]

No

 

I just want to enjoy playing the game without having some jerk give my toon a colonoscopy every time they start feeling self righteous (Which is most of the time).

 

Been there. Done that. Got the T-Shirt, and ran like hell away to a *new* MMO that did not encourage such behavior.

 

Leave well enough alone.

 

KTHXBAI

 

Exactly why I say no. The only experts on the game are the people who code it, not some 12 year old looking at combat logs who's having a bad day.

[Cindikle]

I say no in general. It really does encourage griefing when a lot of the time, the content is too easy for one DPS lagging behind to matter.

 

 

I wouldn't be against some sort of "guild only" combat log. Where you can share your own DPS meter with guildies. This way, guild runs could use it to be progressive but puggs couldn't demand you show yours or be booted from the group.

 

So you want to be carried? If that player is never shown that his dps sucks how will he know he needs to improve?

 

Damage meters teach.

 

Do you really think it's fair that 7 players in a pug are being held back because one of their 8 either doesn't know how to play or is slacking? By the way you're thinking you encourage slacking and bad playing.

[Galbatorrix]

It does not cause griefing and what you are describing as griefing is not what the term means.

 

 

 

Have you ever played WOW? I've had random pugs where the HEALER complained non-stop that the DPS was too low and the run was taking too long. I've had DPS players in top tier gear bashing DPSers that just started that tier of content (ie their gear is not as good). I've had tanks hate on DPS for having lower DPS than them. All this happening as the bosses all died with no issues. That IS griefing.

 

 

Sorry, but I don't want every group I join to become a peeing contest when the bosses are being downed regardless.

 

 

So, again, I say no.