Why make PVP non PVE viable?

[Coyotecalls]

The only way a wedge is driven between PvE and PvP players is by the players themselves.

 

Best in slot PvP gear should not be comparable to best in slot PvE gear for PvE.

 

Just like best in slot PvE gear should not be comparable to best in slot PvP gear for PvP.

 

Why not? That is my question and no one is even trying to answer it. WHY? Why can't people just have fun and get gear in which ever venue they want?

 

You say they should be different like you are quoting holy script but can you tell me ONE good reason? Is the time a PVPer puts into playing worth less than the time a PVEr puts into playing?

PVE and PVP are -exactly- the same except that PVP doesn't have computer controlled mobs to kill. PVP is actually HARDER because you are fighting PEOPLE who can fight back intelligently and not just follow a script yet we are getting the shaft. So tell me what it is we have done to be treated as second class players?

[rgizzie]

Why not just make one set of gear for both. Problem solved. Have on system that rewards X amount of money from either PvP or PvE to buy gear. Who cares where you earn it. I would think (using logic) that since PvP in most cases harder then PvE it would earn slightly more X amount of money.

[Coyotecalls]

Then join them from the beginning and start doing your hardmore flashpoints and normal ops youll be PvE ready in no times.

 

Also, you need 0 skills to get PvP gear for now. Try clearing nightmare SOA with random pugs. Wont happen.

 

 

You are correct. If someone wanted to they could take a fresh level 50 and get their guild to spend days carrying them through content so they can get into the end game content. Becuase, you know, that's fun for everyone right? How many times have you said to yourself, "I think I'll just go do Esseless again because the first hundred times I did it wasn't enough!"

 

No one likes to carry new people through the same content they had to do over and over and over, if PVP gear was the same as PVE gear then we could gear ourselves. We would have the OPTION to be self sufficient. We would be able to gear ourselves and join our friends for the FUN content without having to make them do the same thing they already did a bajillion times to get us gear.

[Jarreth]

Why not? That is my question and no one is even trying to answer it. WHY? Why can't people just have fun and get gear in which ever venue they want?

 

You say they should be different like you are quoting holy script but can you tell me ONE good reason? Is the time a PVPer puts into playing worth less than the time a PVEr puts into playing?

PVE and PVP are -exactly- the same except that PVP doesn't have computer controlled mobs to kill. PVP is actually HARDER because you are fighting PEOPLE who can fight back intelligently and not just follow a script yet we are getting the shaft. So tell me what it is we have done to be treated as second class players?

 

Somehow, I just knew you would make a jump to the argument of "we're being wronged by the developers!".

 

PvE and PvP are not "exactly the same".

 

The fact that you are facing people does not matter; as there is a kind of "script" followed by players based upon their classes/specializations.

Example:

If I interrupt a healer, he will move out of my interrupt range.

If he does not realize that I have my 4 piece PvP set bonus...he won't move back far enough, and I can continue interrupting him and dealing damage to him.

If he does realize that I have my 4 piece PvP set bonus...he'll move back far enough, but he might not be able to heal his teammates.

 

Either way--he has effectively followed a "script" much like a fight against a NPC.

[Coyotecalls]

Why not just make one set of gear for both. Problem solved. Have on system that rewards X amount of money from either PvP or PvE to buy gear. Who cares where you earn it. I would think (using logic) that since PvP in most cases harder then PvE it would earn slightly more X amount of money.

 

Logic would suggest that but it is in fact the opposite. They had a progression chart at the guild summit. PVP levels and rewards credits at almost HALF the pace of questing. So I guess people who fight mobs time is somehow worth more than mine. They get more money, level faster and can pick up crafting supplies as they go. You know what we get in PVP? Fun. We get to have fun. So I'm sticking with PVP but I would love to hear an explanation from the devs as to why they are treating PVPers like we kicked their puppy.

[Dzhokhar]

Why not? That is my question and no one is even trying to answer it. WHY? Why can't people just have fun and get gear in which ever venue they want?

 

You say they should be different like you are quoting holy script but can you tell me ONE good reason? Is the time a PVPer puts into playing worth less than the time a PVEr puts into playing?

PVE and PVP are -exactly- the same except that PVP doesn't have computer controlled mobs to kill. PVP is actually HARDER because you are fighting PEOPLE who can fight back intelligently and not just follow a script yet we are getting the shaft. So tell me what it is we have done to be treated as second class players?

 

I answered your question at the end of page 2. In short, WoW had a problem where if PvP gear was good for PvE, people would be required to PvP in order to join PvE raid guilds, and if PvE gear was better than PvP gear (in general), then Raiders would dominate PvP. Basically, in practice, players were required to do both PvP and PvE in order to do either of them. Resilience/Expertise is a workaround that lets people do whichever playstyle they prefer without being required to do both.

 

Also, at least in the case of WoW, PvP is much easier to progress in than PvE. Sure, players can be smarter than AI enemies, but plenty of players are complete morons too, and AI enemies have much higher stats than any player will ever have. Also, you progress in PvP simply by playing, while in PvE you have to win to progress.

[Coyotecalls]

Somehow, I just knew you would make a jump to the argument of "we're being wronged by the developers!".

 

PvE and PvP are not "exactly the same".

 

The fact that you are facing people does not matter; as there is a kind of "script" followed by players based upon their classes/specializations.

Example:

If I interrupt a healer, he will move out of my interrupt range.

If he does not realize that I have my 4 piece PvP set bonus...he won't move back far enough, and I can continue interrupting him and dealing damage to him.

If he does realize that I have my 4 piece PvP set bonus...he'll move back far enough, but he might not be able to heal his teammates.

 

Either way--he has effectively followed a "script" much like a fight against a NPC.

 

Wow, you must be really, really new to MMOs. Just... wow... Helpful hint: Use your mouse to turn and move. Stop using WASD.

[MrSteak]

It's just going to be the new stuff, I thought...

 

Even so, your PVP gear will still be viable for PVE raids, just not on hard/nightmare. And since you'll be capable of running instances and getting PVE gear for your raiding, you can do both just fine. At least that's what I'm gathering here, I could be way off.

[OldSwab]

I don't understand your arguement. Why do you want PvP gear to have the same stats as PvE? So you can PvE? But you said you hate PvE? If everyone is using PvP gear, then we're all on the same playing field, is your arguement against using PvE gear in warzones?

tl;dr--being mostly endgame viable in mostly endgame gear was one of the really great things about swtor. suddenly not being "viable" to click the blue panel/beat a rage timer/swing a knife at a raid boss at all because i've preferentially enjoyed WZ's is just adding hassle for hassles' sake...and not a very good way to keep me logging in, just personally speaking.

 

___________________________________________

 

I don't mind chiming in.

 

We have a smallish guild and would like to be able to enjoy the PvE. In full champ/bm gear with a couple of colum pieces, I've done several HM's, EV, and KP, the ops with pugs and the HM's with guildies/pugs. I would like to get a better mix of colum/rakata stuff to tinker with my dps/healing output as needed, and I find -full- champ/bm non-ideal for PvP even. Gear tinkering is a bit of a creative process, it's fun, and having the option of a minor tweak to drop endurance in favor of, say, more cunning for a dps-race boss fight makes end game more accessible.

 

Their talk of PvP gear not being viable (where they said they were going) for high-end PvE is different from "not having the same stats" (what you said). It's very different. If you need help...well, I'm not going to patronize you.

 

But it's very different.

 

The accessibility of end game content is what has kept me interested in this game; being able to swap from WZ to HM Flashpoints without having to take off all my characters clothes and figure out which companion I put my super dooper cunning trinket on is something I'm going to miss. If they're not careful with how they proceed, my $15 is something they'll miss, as well. That's not an emotional or vindicative statement. That's just a reflection of how much I enjoyed the "less hassle/do it all!" approach to endgame they opened with and the potential that adding hassle just for the sake of adding hassle and gear-selectively closing off content just for the sake of closing off content will have.

 

So, it's not just getting to end-game "twice" to enjoy what end game has to offer, its also the inconvenience for inconvenience sake of having to take all that gear off my dps operative so I can put all that gear on to be a dps operative.

 

I just can't be bothered to pay for a game that deliberately sets up too many barriers to my enjoyment, just for the sake of creating barriers. I'm a HUGE fan of their mod system. I am a HUGE fan of being able to make some minor adjustments and walk from a WZ into a HM. I will have to wait and see what really happens, but if they break those really nice aspects of the game, they may lose folks they'd rather have kept!

Edited March 6, 2012 by OldSwab

[Coyotecalls]

I answered your question at the end of page 2. In short, WoW had a problem where if PvP gear was good for PvE, people would be required to PvP in order to join PvE raid guilds, and if PvE gear was better than PvP gear (in general), then Raiders would dominate PvP. Basically, in practice, players were required to do both PvP and PvE in order to do either of them. Resilience/Expertise is a workaround that lets people do whichever playstyle they prefer without being required to do both.

 

Also, at least in the case of WoW, PvP is much easier to progress in than PvE. Sure, players can be smarter than AI enemies, but plenty of players are complete morons too, and AI enemies have much higher stats than any player will ever have. Also, you progress in PvP simply by playing, while in PvE you have to win to progress.

 

Yes, they tried to solve an imbalance by creating another imbalance. It's like saying, My house is in fire! Quick! Someone throw some gasoline on the garage so it'll burn evenly with the house..

 

Instead they could have just made the gear for both PVP and PVE the same and just allowed people to choose which method they wanted to use to get it. They could have just made them visually different.

[Twor]

As long as PvE Gear is as useless in PvP than... And I still can do my dailies

[AAmedeo]

I am in a mixture of PvE and PvP Tier 1 & 2 gear. I have played both sides of the game. So do you believe that I deserve to have half my gear for either PvP or PvE to be quite useless for the other? I guess I am going to suck at both for a long time.

[venjinze]

I don't mind chiming in.

 

We have a smallish guild and would like to be able to enjoy the PvE. In full champ/bm gear with a couple of colum pieces, I've done several HM's, EV, and KP, the ops with pugs and the HM's with guildies/pugs. I would like to get a better mix of colum/rakata stuff to tinker with my dps/healing output as needed, and I find -full- champ/bm non-ideal for PvP even. Gear tinkering is a bit of a creative process, it's fun, and having the option of a minor tweak to drop endurance in favor of, say, more cunning for a dps-race boss fight makes end game more accessible.

 

Their talk of PvP gear not being viable (where they said they were going) for high-end PvE is different from "not having the same stats" (what you said). It's very different. If you need help...well, I'm not going to patronize you.

 

But it's very different.

 

The accessibility of end game content is what has kept me interested in this game; being able to swap from WZ to HM Flashpoints without having to take off all my characters clothes and figure out which companion I put my super dooper cunning trinket on is something I'm going to miss. If they're not careful with how they proceed, my $15 is something they'll miss, as well. That's not an emotional or vindicative statement. That's just a reflection of how much I enjoyed the "less hassle/do it all!" approach to endgame they opened with and the potential that adding hassle just for the sake of adding hassle and gear-selectively closing off content just for the sake of closing off content will have.

 

So, it's not just getting to end-game "twice" to enjoy what end game has to offer, its also the inconvenience for inconvenience sake of having to take all that gear off my dps operative so I can put all that gear on to be a dps operative.

 

I just can't be bothered to pay for a game that deliberately sets up too many barriers to my enjoyment, just for the sake of creating barriers. I'm a HUGE fan of their mod system. I am a HUGE fan of being able to make some minor adjustments and walk from a WZ into a HM. I will have to wait and see what really happens, but if they break those really nice aspects of the game, they may lose folks they'd rather have kept!

 

Feel free to patronize me all you want, i am not senstive to the internet.

 

I'm still confused on your arguement, PvE is about progression, why should you be able to go into a HM/NM endgame instance without gearing yourself up appropriately?

[Coyotecalls]

It's just going to be the new stuff, I thought...

Even so, your PVP gear will still be viable for PVE raids, just not on hard/nightmare.

 

A) No, even existing gear will be retooled to the new system.

B) If I spend just as much time, if not more, in PVP getting top of the line gear, why is that any different than someone joining a raiding guild and PVEing? Same amount of time, same amount of effort, should result in same amount of reward. That's what I'm asking for. Right now leveling in PVP or grinding PVP gear at end game gets you almost nothing compared to doing PVE content.

C) The developers and players complain all the time about how crossing from PVE to PVP is difficult and vice versa. How you have to grind entirely new gear. The developers talk about how they are constantly considering ways to even out the imbalance. So my question is why not just do EXACTLY that. Make them the same gear just cosmetically different?

[Coyotecalls]

Feel free to patronize me all you want, i am not senstive to the internet.

 

I'm still confused on your argument, PvE is about progression, why should you be able to go into a HM/NM endgame instance without gearing yourself up appropriately?

 

So days of grinding pug warfronts, illum, and collecting 30 warzone tokens so you can buy 10 Merc token until you have 1000 of EACH type of token, (That's earning a total of 3 THOUSAND tokens) so you can buy a bag which MIGHT get you a piece of armor if you roll lucky but will defiantly get you a token that you can save up and get a items of gear with 15500 tokens later? That's not "Progression?"

 

Dude, compared to the prolonged effort of getting PVP gear, you walking into an instance with your friends and downing a robot boss is like a walk in the park. Go one, try it. My friend Larry hit 50 and was ran through instances, given gear and supplies to craft his end game content from our guild. He was raid ready in under 2 hours of being 50.

 

I DARE someone to try and get a SINGLE items of PVP gear in under an hour.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Coyotecalls

[Rauthadog]

My question is, why do you think that they -shouldn't- be the same?

Why split them up? How is it a -good- thing to drive a wedge between players?

Why do I have to play twice as long and have my friends carry me through PVE content until I get a SECOND set of gear?.

 

Exactly. From a pvp standpoint it sounds sexy to have our own stat that give us an advantage in warzones, but in the end it tends to keep more casual players from queing up. The hardest thing any pvp community has to do (in instanced PvP) is maintain enough players to keep the ques popping. Once the guys that only que up once or twice a week stop showing up, its all over. Segregating the 2 groups has NEVER worked long term in any MMO. There simply aren't enough dedicated PVP'rs to keep things rolling 24/7/365.

[Threskov]

I had 1000/1000 comms stacked on every characters I got to 50. So yes, I got many pvp items within seconds of me hitting 50.

[OldSwab]

Feel free to patronize me all you want, i am not senstive to the internet.

 

I'm still confused on your arguement, PvE is about progression, why should you be able to go into a HM/NM endgame instance without gearing yourself up appropriately?

The underlying assumption that (relatively) difficult-to-obtain lvl 50 gear should not work for clicking-the-glowing-blue-thing/beating-rage-timers/killing-the-medic-first/interrupting-that-big-wind-up/watching-for-shield-to-drop/hey-don't-stand-in-the-fire level 50 instances is what I have trouble with.

 

Being able to do so in swtor was a very, very, very welcome change. Exactly fifteen hundred cents worth, currently, as I get to play on Ilum for a bit, go hit a HM with my guild, then play in WZ until I get tired, or maybe check out an operation with our /4 channel buds with almost zero hassle I really hope they reconsider messing with that level of accessibility.

[Coyotecalls]

I had 1000/1000 comms stacked on every characters I got to 50. So yes, I got many pvp items within seconds of me hitting 50.

 

You got 1 item. The bags are unique and each bag only has a chance of turning over a actual item.

He had a full set of gear, including stims.

 

So again, if PVPer puts in the same amount of effort they get almost -nothing- in return.

[Arkerus]

As long PvP gear is fine for normal mode, then I won't complain.

 

Hard and nightmare modes require better gear. I am fine with that.

 

Don't lock people out of NORMAL.

[Coyotecalls]

By having "PVP only" stats they are doing just that. They are forcing people to choose between spending their time PVPing and spending their time PVEing. It's stupid.

 

I want to play a game with my friends and have fun, not have a second job which I have to pay for.

[venjinze]

So days of grinding pug warfronts, illum, and collecting 30 warzone tokens so you can buy 10 Merc token until you have 1000 of EACH type of token, (That's earning a total of 3 THOUSAND tokens) so you can buy a bag which MIGHT get you a piece of armor if you roll lucky but will defiantly get you a token that you can save up and get a items of gear with 15500 tokens later? That's not "Progression?"

 

Dude, compared to the prolonged effort of getting PVP gear, you walking into an instance with your friends and downing a robot boss is like a walk in the park. Go one, try it. My friend Larry hit 50 and was ran through instances, given gear and supplies to craft his end game content from our guild. He was raid ready in under 2 hours of being 50.

 

I DARE someone to try and get a SINGLE items of PVP gear in under an hour.

 

So then PvE is broken as the content is too easy and reward too great?

 

It literally takes no time to get PvP gear in this game, after a couple of weeks you'll have most centuron and a couple of pieces of champion. You can only run 8man ops once per week where as you might get 1 or 2 pieces of gear.

 

I know this because I primarily PvP, I am currently missing 1 BM piece and I have about 4 Rakata pieces (only 1 being set armor). I run both ops in HM for as many weeks as I've been Battlemaster and I have more BM gear then Rakata. This directly speaks against your arguement.

[Coyotecalls]

If you got a full set of PVP gear in under a week while having time to run instances with your guild and get Rak gear I can only assume you don't have a job. Not everyone can devote their life to playing. You may be "Beast" as your sig line says but that just means your point of view is completely inconsistent with 90% of the players. Edited March 6, 2012 by Coyotecalls

[Erasimus]

If you make the gear the same for both then you have to make the effort to obtain that gear equally difficult/easy in both, and that is a tall order and may not be possible.

 

Anything less than the above will result in people participating in an activity they may not even like just to stay competitive.

 

Say I only like PvE but I can improve my PvE gear during non-raid times by PvPing. Depending on how competitive I want to be I may feel compelled to PvP even though I dislike PvP.

 

 

Personally I don't mind the gear difference. I enjoy both PvP and PvE and have no problem working for the gear I need for each activity. Progressing my character through gear improvement and practice are part of every MMO I've played and, at least to me, part of the enjoyment of the game.

 

Right now I mostly PvP due to time constraints and my varying schedule. It is just easier to hop on and PvP with no particular time schedule to follow. From the OPs I've done I have to say, that at least for now, getting PvE gear is much faster and easier than through PvP especially if you are in a guild that raids.

 

Someone said that guilds don't like to drag people through OPs to get them geared. Well every guild I've been in does just that and it hasn't been a problem. The regular raiders almost always have alts they'd like to run through regular and hard mode OPS for the chance to get some gear and just play a different character.

[venjinze]

If you got a full set of PVP gear in under a week while having time to run instances with your guild and get Rak gear I can only assume you don't have a job. Not everyone can devote their life to playing. You may be "Beast" as your sig line says but that just means your point of view is completely inconsistent with 90% of the players.

 

Thanks for that conjecture. I'll humor you, I have a fulltime job, go to the gym 5 days a week and take jiu jitus classes once per week. This game isn't hard, sorry to say. You can spend 1 night a week doing OPS, thats all the time I dedicate to PvE.

 

If you do your dailies and buy champion bags, you'll have full PvP gear in 2 weeks.

 

My point of view is consistent with people that know what they are talking about.