Dee-Jay Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 I currently have two characters, 1. a Jedi Knight who's been level 50 for almost two months. He's what I'd consider my main-character. 2. an Operative, who is now slowly creeping towards the end of her personal story arc. I log onto my main character every day for the daily PvP grind and then switch over to my Operative asap, because that's what's actually enjoyable in this game. And that's what I find odd. I've never been much of an altoholic and 99% of the time I'd much prefer to progress my main character, ever so slowly, as opposed to "wasting time" on an alt. But then I see these two "pillars" of game-play next to each other (endgame vs. leveling) and it's instantly clear which "pillar" was the main focus during the development period. -Leveling is fun, despite the archaic quest mechanics (interact + kill). -The voice-acting really does make a difference by adding context (although I think a little less might have been good at times). -Planets are varied and interesting, especially if you're into a bit of lore. -Collecting datacrons is both frustrating and rewarding. My only real gripes during leveling is constantly getting stuck in environmental glitches and the excessive travel time (travel to Dromund Kaas for the 10th time -_-). You can tell that the leveling experience really is the heart of the game. And then I switch back to my main character and the fun-factor dissipates. -I get to fight in laggy, low-FPS warzones in order to progress my character (or not) via a terrible RNG loot system. -Ilum ('nuff said) -Or I get to spend hours wiping in raid-content due to buggy and/or intransparent boss-mechanics (Pylon HM and SOA mainly). And this is where it really gets to me. Why is there such a huge difference between the quality of leveling content and the endgame content? Even most casual players spend at least 50% of their play-time at max. level. Did someone not tell Bioware? Hell, while playing "that other MMO" I spent 99.9% of my play-time at max. level. It almost seems like Bioware was so focused on the leveling experience that they completely forgot about engame until they were 4 years into development. So in quick meeting someone tagged a poorly conceived PvP progression system onto the 3 existing warones, spent an hour designing Ilum and then left for lunch, never to return. The raids themselves are ok, if it weren't for all the bugs and other minor frustrations (loot). But here's a piece of truth Bioware I'll share for free. People join an MMO for the leveling experience, but they stay for the endgame. I'm saying this because to me as a customer it's obvious you did not know this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrondorStone Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 I agree with you that they need to have more endgame content. They are working on it just like any other MMO. Rift was a great example of the same complaints you have now. Rift is doing well! SWTOR will do well also. Be patient! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samborino Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 I currently have two characters, 1. a Jedi Knight who's been level 50 for almost two months. He's what I'd consider my main-character. 2. an Operative, who is now slowly creeping towards the end of her personal story arc. I log onto my main character every day for the daily PvP grind and then switch over to my Operative asap, because that's what's actually enjoyable in this game. And that's what I find odd. I've never been much of an altoholic and 99% of the time I'd much prefer to progress my main character, ever so slowly, as opposed to "wasting time" on an alt. But then I see these two "pillars" of game-play next to each other (endgame vs. leveling) and it's instantly clear which "pillar" was the main focus during the development period. -Leveling is fun, despite the archaic quest mechanics (interact + kill). -The voice-acting really does make a difference by adding context (although I think a little less might have been good at times). -Planets are varied and interesting, especially if you're into a bit of lore. -Collecting datacrons is both frustrating and rewarding. My only real gripes during leveling is constantly getting stuck in environmental glitches and the excessive travel time (travel to Dromund Kaas for the 10th time -_-). You can tell that the leveling experience really is the heart of the game. And then I switch back to my main character and the fun-factor dissipates. -I get to fight in laggy, low-FPS warzones in order to progress my character (or not) via a terrible RNG loot system. -Ilum ('nuff said) -Or I get to spend hours wiping in raid-content due to buggy and/or intransparent boss-mechanics (Pylon HM and SOA mainly). And this is where it really gets to me. Why is there such a huge difference between the quality of leveling content and the endgame content? Even most casual players spend at least 50% of their play-time at max. level. Did someone not tell Bioware? Hell, while playing "that other MMO" I spent 99.9% of my play-time at max. level. It almost seems like Bioware was so focused on the leveling experience that they completely forgot about engame until they were 4 years into development. So in quick meeting someone tagged a poorly conceived PvP progression system onto the 3 existing warones, spent an hour designing Ilum and then left for lunch, never to return. The raids themselves are ok, if it weren't for all the bugs and other minor frustrations (loot). But here's a piece of truth Bioware I'll share for free. People join an MMO for the leveling experience, but they stay for the endgame. I'm saying this because to me as a customer it's obvious you did not know this. For PVE its the gear progression that is the main problem IMO. Their is just so little end game loot that progression is kind of a joke. Its really disheartening after you get full columi and you realize that the only gear you need is from 1 other set in the game (rakata) there are no rare drops. No unique or rare pieces of armor , just a set of armor that is the same for everyone once they get full columi. It doesn help that the same loot drops from HM FP's normal mode ops and commendation vendors either. After you have full columi you really only have to raid 2 nights a week (or even 1) to do KP HM And EV HM. HM Fp's suddenly become useless to you progression wise which is a shame because they were one of my favourite parts of the gaame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorphalack Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 For PVE its the gear progression that is the main problem IMO. The main problem is that all the Ops content can be cleared on Nightmare in under 3 hours without really rushing. Poor gear progression dosent help, neither does lack of things to do outside Ops, but overall the Ops length is by far the worst offender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenmori Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Oh god not another thread like this.... here goes again WoW Vanilla... maybe nto teh best example... how many raids did it have? go google.. How long did it take to clear it? go google< How LONG did it take for a new raid to show up? go google Now be happy with SWTOR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
owenthorn Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Oh god not another thread like this.... here goes again WoW Vanilla... maybe nto teh best example... how many raids did it have? go google.. How long did it take to clear it? go google< How LONG did it take for a new raid to show up? go google Now be happy with SWTOR Wow, complete fail your comparing end game to when a 7 year old game came out, to a brand new release news flash, no one cares about a 7 year old release, this is a new game, comparing it to CURRENT games out there, it is fail, they had 5 years all they seem to care about was voices, not the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vecke Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) I'd say there are a number of possible explanations. Perhaps they underestimated the speed with which players would reach 50 and thought they'd have more time getting more end-game content implemented. Perhaps they overestimated the draw of playing alts. Perhaps they were absolutely correct and the majority of players are still quietly enjoying the process, both on original characters and alts (realistically, our information on this is purely anecdotal). Perhaps this game isn't really meant to entertain the standard end-game crowd, but they knew they would have to add some aspects just for PR purposes. Perhaps there are scores of people that genuinely love the end game content (again, we don't have the information to know). I could go on and on, but there are really dozens of perfectly reasonable explanation for why the end game is what it is. Personally, I think it's a combination of factors, but probably mostly that they want the journey to be fun for casual players, which is largely what we've got. A game that is very fun for people that level slowly. Edited March 5, 2012 by Vecke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samborino Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Oh god not another thread like this.... here goes again WoW Vanilla... maybe nto teh best example... how many raids did it have? go google.. How long did it take to clear it? go google< How LONG did it take for a new raid to show up? go google Now be happy with SWTOR Its far better to compare it with rift. Just as an easy comparison look at the end game loot drops for rift. http://rift.xanadu-community.com/items.php?page=all The games been out for about a year and thats what it has, but you can click on original and see that end game it had 1444 unique item drops for end game at launch. Now look at swtor i can almost count the end game loot on my fingers. Tier gear (3 sets per class but they all pretty much look the same + extra for off specs i guess) energized , xenotech , exotech. That comprises all the end game loot for the game you multiply that by 8 classes + some offspecs and it certainly doesnt come out to anywhere near 1500 pieces of loot. I hope that swtor expands its end game gear progression in the right way, but it seems like they arent already it seems like they just want to keep the same amount of drops but just supplement it with orange gear. This would be fine i think if orange gear had its own path of progression. Like say armorings with set bonus's attached dropped off of bosses or could be acquired through commendations. Right now the way they are setting it up orange items and gear progression are one in the same, you get an epic item, you can put the mods in an orange item. Essentially making new epic items they release just a container for mods, this gives them an excuse to continue making very small amount of end game epics and they dont really have to care about how good they look because most people will just take the mods out of them and put them in orange items anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBetty Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Keep in mind people. Bioware has the entire Star Wars Universe open to them. The amount of end game content they can (and will) release over the follwing months and years will trump any competitor I'm sure. I believe the reason they didn't ahve much end game at release is because they don't want people just to power level through and miss all the rich story lines they put such hard work into, I personally think they did a good job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekkau Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I'd say there are a number of possible explanations. Perhaps they underestimated the speed with which players would reach 50 and thought they'd have more time getting more end-game content implemented. Perhaps they overestimated the draw of playing alts. Perhaps they were absolutely correct and the majority of players are still quietly enjoying the process, both on original characters and alts (realistically, our information on this is purely anecdotal). Perhaps this game isn't really meant to entertain the standard end-game crowd, but they knew they would have to add some aspects just for PR purposes. Perhaps there are scores of people that genuinely love the end game content (again, we don't have the information to know). I could go on and on, but there are really dozens of perfectly reasonable explanation for why the end game is what it is. Personally, I think it's a combination of factors, but probably mostly that they want the journey to be fun for casual players, which is largely what we've got. A game that is very fun for people that level slowly. But the game isn't fun. It is dreary and repetative. After 25 levels I started over to see if I missed something, but after the first place you are running the same areas again. And the combat combinations and activities are all the same. Loads playing have done many years of MMOs and this game was supposed to be new and exciting. Its not. And I guess only the Star Wars fan brigade actually like it. Sadly not for me and I didn't wait to end game to make that judgement. I can see where the things going and I just can't be bothered. If you're not progressing in an MMO you are wasting your time. And while I'm here I could be progressing elsewhere. Those casuals you talk of won't understand that. But many do. The clock is always ticking in an MMO and unless you feel you're getting one up on the next guy you wont be hanging about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koalachan Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Wow, complete fail your comparing end game to when a 7 year old game came out, to a brand new release news flash, no one cares about a 7 year old release, this is a new game, comparing it to CURRENT games out there, it is fail, they had 5 years all they seem to care about was voices, not the game I'd rather be doing swtors 2 raids for 1 month than WoWs 1 raid for 6 months. Total failure on your part. WoW had 7 years to build, and at first were doing good, making it so each raid mattered, than the go and make it so only the current raid is relevant and just ruined the whole thing. Swtor has more endgame than wow currently does with its 3 repetetive heroics and its 1 raid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vecke Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) But the game isn't fun. It is dreary and repetative. After 25 levels I started over to see if I missed something, but after the first place you are running the same areas again. And the combat combinations and activities are all the same. Loads playing have done many years of MMOs and this game was supposed to be new and exciting. Its not. And I guess only the Star Wars fan brigade actually like it. Sadly not for me and I didn't wait to end game to make that judgement. I can see where the things going and I just can't be bothered. If you're not progressing in an MMO you are wasting your time. And while I'm here I could be progressing elsewhere. Those casuals you talk of won't understand that. But many do. The clock is always ticking in an MMO and unless you feel you're getting one up on the next guy you wont be hanging about. Perfectly fine opinion to have on an MMO, but "getting one up on the next guy" has never been - and will never be - why I play an MMO. I actually find the game incredibly fun, and I don't think that just because it's Star Wars. There are plenty of Star Wars games I don't like. And I don't say that as an MMO player. There are plenty of MMOs I really enjoy and plenty I don't. I say it because, when I'm playing, I'm enjoying myself. You obviously aren't, and that's fine. Most of the complaints about this game are valid. Most of the compliments about this game are valid. Opinions vary and most people think their own personal opinion is either the majority or just plain "right." I've yet to see someone say, "I LOVE everything about this game, yet I think it's going to fail!" And I've never seen someone say, "I hate this game, but it'll be a huge success." Edited March 5, 2012 by Vecke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackardin Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Wow, complete fail your comparing end game to when a 7 year old game came out, to a brand new release news flash, no one cares about a 7 year old release, this is a new game, comparing it to CURRENT games out there, it is fail, they had 5 years all they seem to care about was voices, not the game When making comparrisons, the paramiters must maintain similarities. A comparrison of new release to new release is valid. However, if one were to choose to ignore such paramiters, we can look at every MMORPG ever released and see the same results. That was not the point though. The point was to demonstrate that Wow, having less end game content, demonstrated that it will have no impact on the long term success of a game. The rest is merely more conjecture with no proof or example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebbikenezer Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 This is another NEW AND ORIGINAL thread that I have NEVER seen before on these forums. In any iteration. /clap 1/10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicen Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Omg please be quiet about End-Game!!! Wow only had Molten Core at release...yes each boss further in was harder...but that was only because "Hardmores / Nightmare modes" did not exist yet... So quit complaining! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valdshade Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I have played nearly every MMO to come and so far and yes I have lots of alts and more then 1 50 ect... this game is the bigest let down ever . The end game is on parr with Rift but who said Rift end game was any good . The pvp has been voted "worst pvp ever " and I would have to agree besides base on the amount of hacks expolites and third party macro using in pvp it might as well be a free to play . A 15% loss ration for new subs each mounth never a good thing . No over all I would say in 6-7 mounths this game will have gone the way of conan and LOR online . Big start but no finish it is sad and I know all the dev kiss buts will be ragin but hey it is true look at the bright side at least you have 6-7 mounths or when ever and new MMO comes out to play this and lie to yourself that it was worth the money you payed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgintis Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 It does feel that the end game was an afterthought. Having hit 50 just last week and finding that there was nothing to do was quite a shock. Was nice to see others on the forum experiencing the same thing. Kinda sad since I loved getting to 50. I will let my sub run out and play another alt for a bit in the mean time. Also by the looks of the community that is staying I really am not going to miss anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Wow, complete fail your comparing end game to when a 7 year old game came out, to a brand new release His point being......ALL MMOS release with limited end game content initially. Then.....wait for it.... wait for it.....they release more and more through patches after release. It's the way MMOs are done. So stop with the hatred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 This is another NEW AND ORIGINAL thread that I have NEVER seen before on these forums. In any iteration. /clap 1/10 hehe.... seeing a lot of that today aren't you? That's when you know that negative detractors have run out of things to complain about. So they rinse and repeat them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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