Why are you guys not furious by the massive lack of balance between sorcerer and op.

[Ojas]

Just a simple example.

 

Not even including any of the talents and "no cost" talents for a sorcerer.

In 60 seconds a sorcerer can heal for ~30k before crits. Spamming innervate and dark infusion. That is assuming they do not keep subversion stacked and are at 8 force regen / sec. Again. Not including any of the "no cost" procs from their talents.

 

In 60 seconds an Operative can heal for ~20k before crits keeping KP stacked for 2 and only restacking it at the last second, and shuffling between Kolto Infusion and Surgical Probe. That is including active stim boost at ALL TIMES. So in reality that number is actually lower because TA will fade and be used for stim boost instead of being used 100% on surgical probe.

 

 

The number massively decreases if you include group healing. It doesn't make any sense why you guys accept this (just one of them) massive shortcoming operatives face.

 

Here is the link to the complete model I made for energy and force regen. It include pull down menus for all the heals for each class. It includes a pull down box for keeping stim boost or revivification active. It automatically calculates the force/energy used and whether or not a player has the force/energy to use the ability and if they do not, it does not activate.

 

This is a crude model that does nothing but prove one of the two things everybody with half a brain already knows.

A. Sorcerers is unacceptably overpowered.

B. Operatives are unacceptably underpowered.

 

Feel free to use the model to try other combinations. Like time required between casts to maximize indefinite casting. Simple fact is, 600 force and a fixed force regen rate is straight up, utter horse **** when operatives have to deal with low pool energy (105 with gear), variable regen rates (virtually unplayable if you are forced to cast often) and high cost abilities and a short stacked additional resource pool (Tactical Advantage). We have diagnostic scan to increase our energy, and I will model that shortly and post it. Something along to lines of keeping KP stacked on three targets, and maximum cast rate for kolto infusion and surgical probe if you cycle diagnostic scan into that.

 

Note!!!!!!!!

 

Operative ability cost vs the % of total resource pool (assuming 105 energy (which requires gear) compared to Sorcerer ability cost vs the % of total resource pool (assuming 600 force which only requires talents).

 

BTW, you can use recuperative nanotech in the model, but I warn you. It's almost nauseating to see how badly your overall healing suffers from that small heal high cost ability that nukes your regen rate.

 

In addition, using kolto infusion instead of surgical probe has a significant detrimental effect on your overall healing, as it too, nukes your overall energy.

For Operatives

 

Kolto Probe = 15 Energy = 14.29% Total Energy

Kolto Injection = 25 Energy = 23.81% Total Energy

Recuperative Nanotech = 30 Energy = 28.57% Total Energy

Kolto Infusion = 20 Energy = 19.05% Total Energy

 

For Sorcerers

Dark Heal = 50 Force = 8.33% Total Force

Dark Infusion = 55 Force = 9.17% Total Force

Resurgence = 30 Force = 5.00% Total Force

Innervate = 40 Force = 6.67% Total Force

Revivification = 100 Force = 16.67% Total Force

 

 

I have posted things like this before so I do not know if any of you even care. The FACTS ARE out there. I do not know why so many of you are just ignoring them. Objective comparison between classes is nauseating.

 

 

A few last notes.

None of this includes any use of the sorcerer ability "static barrier", which absorbers around 3.6k for 35 force cost (if talented).

A sorcerer can keep their force regen stacked to 10.4 per second with subversion talents.

Electric Induction decreases cost of force abilities by 9% (with three points).

Talent in Force Bending allows a sorcerer to decrease their Dark Heal cost to 22.75 force (instead of the 45.5 force (with Electric Induction talent)).

 

Additionally, sorcerers can increase the armor rating and buff the speed of their targets by 10% and 20% respectively.

 

I for one am furious. They could DOUBLE our overall output of our heals and we would STILL be subpar to Sorcerers.

 

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoA1sIhCiS9hdHZ3Y295Zk9scmg4cmZna0JzRms0Mmc#gid=0

[Zunayson]

Now compare renegeration rates.

 

You'll note that a skillful op (And even a mediocre in the mid ranges of energy regen) is about as high as you spend it.

 

When a sorc keeps on going, the sorc has to use consumption. Note we also have Stim boost to take us up.

 

Our resource is the best (Like Ammo and heat) when managed wisely. When a sorc runs out of Force, it cannot heal anymore.

 

Combined with our higher than a sorcs single-target heals, then we're able to infinitely sustain a tank. So... Huttball, anyone?

 

Didn't understand? Our lifespan of resource is longer.

 

And I heal just fine. We're also mobile. I can spam my instants and hots while clensing and kiting watchman sentinels. I like watching the look on there fat faces.

 

Get yourself geared. My rotation is:

 

Kolto Probe (For TA generation) > Injection (God's will that it's Proc'd a TA by now) > Surgical Probe > Injection >

 

And so on. You actually don't lose any energy (Or gain any) By doing 2 sec injection > SP.

 

Whenever an extra TA procs, I move to stop the cast and use Stim Boost. Whenever my energy is at 100% while I cast, I don't want to waste that 10 energy, soooo I go with RN, then DS.

 

It looks like you just need some pointers - that's all.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Zunayson

[DirectorH]

There was an initial raft of complaining, but I suspect that the recent Dev reply of "Operatives are fine", and no news of significant change in 1.2, has lead to most people rolling a sorceror / sage for healing.

[ironix]

There was an initial raft of complaining, but I suspect that the recent Dev reply of "Operatives are fine", and no news of significant change in 1.2, has lead to most people rolling a sorceror / sage for healing.

 

And cancelling accounts, like I did.

 

I've given up on my operative as a competitive healer. I don't expect to see any changes for a long while and I am loathed to level a sorcerer and do all that same content over again.

 

I plan on keeping an eye on what happens with operatives in the future, but I doubt they'll get to fixing this class before the year is out (if ever, when you consider how the Warhammer team is part of SWTOR and they left classes to languish for YEARS in that game).

[ironix]

And I heal just fine. We're also mobile. I can spam my instants and hots while clensing and kiting watchman sentinels. I like watching the look on there fat faces.

 

We all heal 'just fine'. It is just that all the other healing classes are more fine than we are. =p

 

With respect to operations, a mediocre sorcerer will always be a better choice than an exceptional operative.

[hulkweazel]

I'm sure many of you have seen this already:

 

RuQu: Can you provide some details on Healer class design philosophy? Commando/Scoundrel AoE does not scale with group size due to player caps. Are they not intended to fill the raid-healer role? Scoundrels can be highly efficient, but have no tools for doing a short burst of healing.

 

In short, what is the design intention for each of the healers, and is it intended for them to be balanced so that any possible combination is competitive in Operations, or is a certain mix expected?

 

Georg Zoeller: Our stance is that all full healer specs should be viable for all type of content, which is the case, even for 16 man Operations. Our own players have no issues clearing any of the content in the game, on all difficulty levels, with any healer spec. Data from the Live game shows Operations, at all sizes, being successfully run with Commando and Scoundrel healers. It is expected for certain Operations bosses to create challenges for different healer archetypes (e.g. due to mobility requirements), but overall, every healer archetype is capable of successfully healing through any Operations and Flashpoint content in the game (currently and in the future).

 

With regards to your question about Commando/Scoundrel Area of Effect healing not scaling to group size, please understand that no heal, on any class, scales with group size. The most powerful Area of Effect heals in the game (Salvation/Revivification) affects up to 8 players, but does not scale with group size. These abilities are very costly, have an activation time requirement and require the targets to stand in a localized area for ten seconds to receive the full benefit. We plan on improving the overall Area of Effect healing performance of the Mercenary/Commando in the next major Game Update (1.2) by increasing the number of targets affected by Kolto Missile/Kolto Bomb.

 

As for Scoundrels having no tools for short burst healing, we don’t agree with that assessment. A scoundrel, for example, is capable of producing rather significant burst healing output by using Upper Hand gained from Underworld Medicine or Kolto Injection to trigger an instant Emergency Medpack or Surgical probe when needed. That said, we certainly think there’s room for improvements (and our upcoming Game Update 1.2 has a sizeable chunk of such improvements). For example, we are shifting the healing created by the Kolto Cloud ability to be front loaded in 1.2 to allow it to act as an emergency Area of Effect healing tool.

 

Finally, the perception of a specific class being not desirable can also be affected by the desirability of other classes. For example, Sage/Inquisitor healers are currently able to exceed our intended healing performance at times by affecting multiple heals with the same Conveyance/Force Bending buff. Game Update 1.2 will remove the ability to do so.

Keywords are "Game Update 1.2 has a sizeable chunk of such improvements" in referring to Op healing. Who knows what these "improvements" actually are or if they will actually make them in line with the other two healing classes, but that's the official response.

[LeeMerriman]

I've seen Op heals being the top often in warzones .. Honestly, they don't seem as bad as people make them sound.

[ironix]

I've seen Op heals being the top often in warzones .. Honestly, they don't seem as bad as people make them sound.

 

As an operative, I can be top heals in a warzone. However, that doesn't mean we're 'fine'. In PvP I rarely have to worry about energy because it resets when I die, which is a lot (as we only have one big heal which is easily interrupted).

 

The issue mainly lies in PvE and more specifically during boss fights where a significant amount of AoE damage is being dealt, which is almost all of them. When trying to burst heal an ops group as an operative, we run into the issue of being energy starved and we simply cannot keep up.

 

In any case, I shall use the following stock answer quote.

 

You may be the most awesome operative ever, but you would still do better as a (currently) Sage/Sorc. Everyone's experiences are just as valid, so your report of success, while worth adding to the pile, does not negate other people's reports of struggle. Note too that many posting here about problems with a class also have cleared the content, they just note that it was easier on an alt of another class or when they subbed out one class for another.

[Battilea]

I for one am furious. They could DOUBLE our overall output of our heals and we would STILL be subpar to Sorcerers.

 

A decent quantity are annoyed. But most players don't know better and can do the content they do decently enough, even if some aspects (group heal) are exceptionally weaksauce.

 

But it doesn't really do much good. BioWare has pretty much made it clear by their behavior that all they really care about in regular patches are PvP related changes. So there's nothing to do but wait to see what 1.2 brings, to see if they actually give a damn about the rest of their game.

[SpinyMobster]

Sure, my vanguard has topped the healing chart in a warzone too

 

My perception is that medic spec operatives on average under-perform similarly geared sorcerers in warzones- but of course only Bioware knows for sure.

 

Usually the only time my operative tops the healing chart is if he remains unmolested long enough to repeatedly TA spam SP on near-death players without anybody on the other team figuring out why their target isn't dying... which doesn't happen very much anymore

 

I have to say I do mostly like the operative medic's gameplay, so hopefully 1.2 will tweak the healers to be more balanced.

[snargs]

Health per second output only matters on a few select fights, and those are primarily on NMM. As an Operative Healer, I found NMM to be quite easy to heal for the most part, save for Jarg/Sorno and the Fabricator, which were manageable challenges.

[Ojas]

Now compare renegeration rates.

 

You'll note that a skillful op (And even a mediocre in the mid ranges of energy regen) is about as high as you spend it.

 

When a sorc keeps on going, the sorc has to use consumption. Note we also have Stim boost to take us up.

 

Our resource is the best (Like Ammo and heat) when managed wisely. When a sorc runs out of Force, it cannot heal anymore.

 

Combined with our higher than a sorcs single-target heals, then we're able to infinitely sustain a tank. So... Huttball, anyone?

 

Didn't understand? Our lifespan of resource is longer.

 

And I heal just fine. We're also mobile. I can spam my instants and hots while clensing and kiting watchman sentinels. I like watching the look on there fat faces.

 

Get yourself geared. My rotation is:

 

Kolto Probe (For TA generation) > Injection (God's will that it's Proc'd a TA by now) > Surgical Probe > Injection >

 

And so on. You actually don't lose any energy (Or gain any) By doing 2 sec injection > SP.

 

Whenever an extra TA procs, I move to stop the cast and use Stim Boost. Whenever my energy is at 100% while I cast, I don't want to waste that 10 energy, soooo I go with RN, then DS.

 

It looks like you just need some pointers - that's all.

 

I am going to reply to all of you in detail. I just wanted to get to this individuals post to make a few things clear.

 

Let's consider those two resource pool regeneration abilities.

Consumption and Stim Boost.

 

Base stats on these abilities are;

Consumption

Instant Cast

No Cooldown

Restores 8% of max force (which is 48 force if you have 600 force).

Costs 15% max health;

Applies debuff (which can stack 4 times and lasts 10 seconds) that decreases the force regen by 25% for each stack.

 

Stim Boost

Instant Cast

35 second cooldown

Restores 3 energy every 3 seconds for 45 seconds; That equals out to 45 energy after 45 seconds.

Costs a Tactical Advantage. This could mean the loss of either a surgical probe or kolto infusion.

 

 

 

Now for talents.

Operatives get a talent IN THE LETHALITY TREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that allows stim boost to regen 10 energy and decreases the cooldown by 15 seconds.

That gives you a new cooldown of 20 seconds.

 

NOTE!!!!!!!!!! that; it is INFACT IMPOSSIBLE to get this talent IF!!!!!!!! you are full medicine speced. That means IF!!!!!!!!!!!! you have Recruperative Nanotech you can NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! get this talent.

 

So; this individual posting about stim boost's 10 energy is assuming the Operative class is "fine" because we have to avoid having our 31 POINT HEAL to be viable. I just want to point out how ludicrous that is before moving on.

 

Again; to make this very clear;

You are defending how viable operative healer is with the assumption that the best operative healer spec is BYPASSING THE 31 POINT OPERATIVE HEAL TO GET A BUFF IN THE LETHALITY TREE;

 

Ok; Now that that has been made clear, and nobody reads your post without realizing that simple fact.

 

Sorcerers get a talent called "Force Surge";

This talent is INFACT in the HEALING TREE for sorcerers.

This talent causes Innervate critical hits to 100% cause the next consumption to activate without consuming health (so now their 8% (or 45 point force regen ability)) has no cost.

 

Now; let's compare these abilities assuming a player talents to get them (expected for a sorcerer and *********** RIDICULOUS to expect from an operative (even through we are forced to because our tree is INFACT BROKEN AND IT'S BETTER PLAY TO AVOID GOING 31 POINT OPERATIVE HEALER).

 

Sorry, I am just a little upset this guy would even sit there and try to defend operative as fine with that *********** absurd claim "we get the +10 energy stim boost talent").

 

 

Alright now let's compare Consumption talented (in their healing tree) with Stim boost (talented in tier 3 lethality tree which means we can not get recuperative nanotech).

 

Stim Boost if it is cast constantly for maximum return (hard to do since you have to balance current energy level and make sure it is below 95, have a TA up, not have to heal somebody with your no cost surgical probe and do this while this abilities is on its long cooldown).

 

Let's consider a 3 minute scenario.

Every 20 seconds stimboost grants 10 energy;

That's a total of 90 energy from casting the ability 9 times in 3 minutes,

It will also regen 360 energy during that time.

Note this costs us a TA so let's consider that cost as the surgical probe heal which we could have used for the same energy cost (nothing).

Surgical Probe heals for around 1250 with full champion gear and full talents. Full champion gear grants around 37% crit chance (without other class buffs), and around 1.7X crit multiplier.

So averaged out with the chance of crits using that Tactical Advantage means we give up a surgical probe heal which heals for around 1574 health on average.

 

So the actual cost is 1574 points of healing potential.

 

 

For consumption.

It costs 18% of max health. However, there is an additional talent that every sorcerer healer will have called "dark resilience" which decreases the cost of consumption by 2%. So that means the actual cost is around 16% of max health.

A completely geared sorcerer has around 16.5k health so that equals around 2640 health.

However, sorcerers have additional talents to make this cost nothing.

 

"Force Bending" increases critical chance of "Innervate" by 25%.

"Force Surge" causes "Innervate" critical hits to cause "Consumption" to cost nothing.

 

Innervate is on a 9 second cooldown.

 

Normal debuff duration for "Consumption" is 10 seconds.

 

That means they can cast it every 10 seconds for 45 force each time.

 

Let's put it all together.

 

Not even assuming a sorcerer takes advantage of their simple system to make consumption cost nothing.

 

 

Operative Talented Stim Boost

Cost us ~ 1574 healing potential;

It grants us 10 energy on cast + 20 energy from Regen at 3 energy / 3 sec for a total of 30 energy for the cast.

 

Note we HAVE to have tactical advantage up to use this SO we must cast either

Kolto Probe = 15 energy cost (on a 30% tick chance) so you can expect to get atleast 1 TA from this for a single cast. Note casting KP twice on one target does not increase the chance to proc TA.

Kolto Injection = 25 energy cost

Shiv = 15 energy cost.

 

So MINIMUM cost of at least 15 energy.

 

Let's assume a single Kolto Probe cast gets you two TA procs. That is unlikly but let's assume it.

 

That means, you lost 15 energy to KP but you gain 30 energy for a net gain of 15 energy.

 

Note this costs you a Tactical Advantage so it also costs you ~ 1574 healing potential on each cast.

 

So assuming you have this talented and you cast it when it is off cooldown and at maximal effect, you can cast this every 20 seconds for a total of 18 casts in 3 minutes.

 

That means you have received a total of 270 energy in 3 minutes from Stim Boost (remember you actually have to spend energy to get tactical advantage).

So 3 minutes of maximal casting of Stim Boosts grants you 270 energy. This also costs you 18 * 1574 healing potential for a total of 28332 because you had to spend your tactical advantage on stim boost and not on surgical probe.

 

So final marks for stim boost over 3 minutes are;

270 energy gained

28332 healing potential lost

 

 

Now for consumption.

 

Not even considering all the free cast bonuses that every sorcerer has because they are all in their medicine tree (unlike the +10 energy for operative which is in lethality).

Consumption can be cast every 10 seconds for maximal effect (after the debuff wears off).

That means in 3 minutes they can cast consumption 36 times.

It has no resource pool (like requires a tactical advantage) so the only cost is health (remember we are not even including the free of cost proc from "Force Surge" talent).

 

So 36 casts in 3 minutes grants 45 Force * 36 = 1620 force.

This costs them 2640 health each cast so 2640 * 36 = 95040

That looks like a lot but remember, that is only against themselves. In a raid, with two healers, another healer can easily take care of that much healing for the sorcerer which equates to 264 health per second.

So 95040 health / 1620 force = 58.67 health per force;

 

Let's go back to operatives which ended up at 270 energy at a cost of 28332 healing potential. So;

28332 health / 270 energy = 104.9 health per point of energy.

 

 

O LOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorcerers come out almost twice as a EFFICIENT;

 

 

Let's take a look at overall healing potential;

Operatives get 270 energy over 3 minutes with maximal casting of stim boost at a cost of 104.9 health per point of energy.

270 energy spent entirely on Kolto Injection equates to ~ 11 casts.

That is 11 Kolto Injection casts.

Kolto Injection heals for around 2090-2382 health in full champ gear. Sticking with 37% crit chance and 1.7x crit multiplier. So each cast of Kolto Injection heals for around 2815 health (averaging crit and non crit). At 11 casts that equals 30966 healed.

There is an additional 11 casts of Surgical Probe possible that I will include in the summary below.

 

Now for Sorcerers; Sorcerers get 1620 force over 3 minutes with maximal casting of consumption (every 10 seconds) at a cost of 58.67 health per force.

1620 force allows for ~ 29 casts of Dark Infusion; Dark Infusion heals for around 2903-3158 in full gear same setup as the operative. Assuming the 33% crit chance and 1.7X crit multiplier that equates to ~ 3730 healed per cast.

At 29 casts that equates to 108170 healed.

 

 

How do you like that.

The Summary;

 

Comparing healing potential and cost for TALENTED Stim Boost and Consumption over 3 minutes with maximal casting of each ability.

Not including the free cast procs for consumption (assuming it always costs 16% health).

Operative;

Cost = 28332 Health;

Reward = 270 Energy;

That equates to a cost of 104.9 health per point of energy.

 

Sorcerer;

Cost = 95040 Health 58.67 Health;

Reward = 1620 Force;

That equates to a cost of 58.67 Health per point of force.

 

Sorcerers win that round; Sorcerer cost per point of force is almost half that as the cost per point of energy for an operative.

 

Let's summarize the actual effect 1620 Force and 270 Energy can have over 3 minutes.

 

Kolto Injection costs 25 energy.

That means 270 energy allows for 11 casts of Kolto Injection (KI);

The average amount healed (including crit chance) per KI is 2815.

That equates to 30965 Health.

We additionally can cast 11 Surgical Probes at no energy cost (but TA cost). Remember the average heal for KP (including crit chance) is 1574. So 11 * 1574 = 17314.

That totals out to 30965 + 17314 = 48279 healed with our high cost (104.9 health per point of energy) maximal effect of stim boost.

 

Dark Infusion costs 55 Force.

This means 1620 force allows for 29 casts of Dark Infusion (DI);

The average amount healed (including crit chance) per DI is 3730.

That equates to 108170 Health available to heal from the low cost of 58.67 Health per point of Force.

 

 

 

That is NOT EVEN INCLUDING;

A. How difficult it is to keep stim boost casted optimally.

B. All the Sorcerer talents that allow force consumption to cost nothing.

C. (and I feel the most important). This is ALL INCLUDING A TALENT THAT REQUIRES YOU TO GIVE UP THE OPERATIVE 31 POINT MOTHER *********** HEAL BECAUSE IT'S IN TIER THREE OF LETHALITY WHILE ALL OF THE SORCERER TALENTS FOR FORCE REGEN ARE IN THEIR MEDICINE TREE.

 

 

 

Last summary.

Consumption = 58.67 Health per Point of Force.

Stim Boost = 104.9 Healing Potential per Point of Energy.

 

Three Minutes of Optimal casting of Consumption or Stim Boost allows for;

Sorcerer to heal for an additional 108k.

Operative to heal for an additional 48k.

 

So.

Sorcereres force regen costs almost half.

Sorcerers are able to heal for more than twice as much with the amount of force returned for their force regen ability that casts almost half.

 

Plus the fact that.

Sorcerers do not have to deal with variable regen rates so high damage situations do not render them useless in the long run. Their force regen is fixed.

If we are forced to cast 3 Kolto Injections we are ****ed.

 

 

We also have to deal with TA procs.

All of those numbers I just presented to you do not include any of the random procs from sorcerer abilities. It does not include the other sorcerer heals that will even further emphasize the massive gap between effectiveness.

 

 

Please. Understand this isn't unbalanced.

This is literally not even half as a effective as the sorcerer class unbalance.

 

 

I will summarize that all again in another post and maybe another reply here, I just wanted to get it out.

 

Operative healer isn't even half as effective as a sorcerer healer.

They could double our output and we would still be subpar.

 

That is a FACT.

Alright.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Ojas

[snargs]

You can do all the math you want, but the fact is, you really don't need to. You're assuming that the hardest encounters in the game rely on maximizing HP/s and energy efficiency. In a way, they do. But the bottom line is, it isn't very difficult to do so, and when you do, it's more than enough to counter ANY boss's damage on ANY difficulty, regardless of your class. The Operative's high mobility and sustain are a huge asset to an operation.

 

The fact that you consider going so deep in lethality just for the +10 energy on Stim Boost is pretty ridiculous. Especially because you're missing out on our only AoE heal, which is more useful than you make it out to be. I'm curious how far you have progressed through PvE content. If I were a bolder man, I'd ask you to refrain from dispensing your guidance on other Operative Healers.

[Ojas]

You can do all the math you want, but the fact is, you really don't need to. You're assuming that the hardest encounters in the game rely on maximizing HP/s and energy efficiency. In a way, they do. But the bottom line is, it isn't very difficult to do so, and when you do, it's more than enough to counter ANY boss's damage on ANY difficulty, regardless of your class. The Operative's high mobility and sustain are a huge asset to an operation.

 

The fact that you consider going so deep in lethality just for the +10 energy on Stim Boost is pretty ridiculous. Especially because you're missing out on our only AoE heal, which is more useful than you make it out to be. I'm curious how far you have progressed through PvE content. If I were a bolder man, I'd ask you to refrain from dispensing your guidance on other Operative Healers.

 

So your reply is;

"It doesn't matter if our class is subpar and can only heal for half that of a sorcerer, we don't need to heal for 100k, 50k healing is just fine".

 

 

 

LMAO;

What?

High mobility?

Sustain? Sustain what? Healing? Are you kidding me. I already proved a sorcerer can sustain much more healing amount for smaller cost. It's infact harder to maintain 105 energy with variable energy rates than it is to maintain 600 force with fixed regen rates when you have an ability like consumption to fire, easily talented to cost no health.

 

*** are you talking about.

 

 

The +10 energy for stim boost was just a reply to that individuals post. It is infact a better option for a healer given the high cost of recuperative nanotech and low healing amount.

 

 

So you defense is;

 

Operatives are fine because they do just enough to get through. Don't care if sorcerers can do less than half as much work to have the same impact.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Ojas

[Slurmez]

why whine? devs said ops/scoundrels are getting love and sorcs/sages are too good so its gonna get looked at soon enough

[Ojas]

why whine? devs said ops/scoundrels are getting love and sorcs/sages are too good so its gonna get looked at soon enough

 

Not enough. We deserve compensation for what they have put this class through. Nerfs that have driven over half of the operatives playing in this game to reroll or cancel sub.

 

Having to work so much harder than other classes for so little reward. Being outdone in almost every area by sorcerers by over 2x (yes sorcerers can do over 2x as much healing as an operative in ANY situation). They can also sustain that indefinitely.

 

 

No; a possible fix 5 months from now is not enough. We deserve a formal apology and compensation. Especially after a unnecessary sledgehammer nerf of 20% to our concealment damage (which was already subpar to sorcerers and mercenaries), still no fix to lethality which remains useless past tier 3 and a healing class that is beyond subpar, it is outdone by sorceres over 2 fold.

[ironix]

Health per second output only matters on a few select fights, and those are primarily on NMM. As an Operative Healer, I found NMM to be quite easy to heal for the most part, save for Jarg/Sorno and the Fabricator, which were manageable challenges.

 

The other healer in your group, was it also an operative?

 

I also find no trouble healing operations when I'm not healing with another operative.

[Ojas]

The other healer in your group, was it also an operative?

 

I also find no trouble healing operations when I'm not healing with another operative.

 

Lol; Awesome reply.

[snargs]

OK. Actually reading your math now. It is pretty awful.

You're comparing Consumption and Stim boost:

"So 36 casts in 3 minutes grants 45 Force * 36 = 1620 force.

This costs them 2640 health each cast so 2640 * 36 = 95040"

Consumption activates the global cooldown(1.5s). 36 Casts equates to 54 seconds of that 3 minutes where the Sorc is locked by the GCD. Almost 1/3 of that 3 minutes, excluding latency. The resource cost is health AND time. You also say 95000 damage in 3 minutes is insignificant, which is completely ridiculous.

Stim Boost does not activate the GCD, costs only TA, and counter to what you say, it is very easy to keep up.

 

My point is, throughput is insignificant when comparing classes that have no problem keeping up with damage in any encounter. I cleared EV and KP on NMM with little personal challenge. I heal more effectively than other Sorc healers according to my MT. I feel very poweful.

 

Where are you coming from? Pulling numbers from ToRhead? Comparing apples and oranges in a way that makes your outrage justified? Why are you outraged? Are you having trouble keeping people alive? I can help you out with that if you need it.

 

We deserve an apology and compensation? Are you out of your mind or just a troll?

[Ojas]

OK. Actually reading your math now. It is pretty awful.

You're comparing Consumption and Stim boost:

"So 36 casts in 3 minutes grants 45 Force * 36 = 1620 force.

This costs them 2640 health each cast so 2640 * 36 = 95040"

Consumption activates the global cooldown(1.5s). 36 Casts equates to 54 seconds of that 3 minutes where the Sorc is locked by the GCD. Almost 1/3 of that 3 minutes, excluding latency. The resource cost is health AND time. You also say 95000 damage in 3 minutes is insignificant, which is completely ridiculous.

Stim Boost does not activate the GCD, costs only TA, and counter to what you say, it is very easy to keep up.

 

My point is, throughput is insignificant when comparing classes that have no problem keeping up with damage in any encounter. I cleared EV and KP on NMM with little personal challenge. I heal more effectively than other Sorc healers according to my MT. I feel very poweful.

 

Where are you coming from? Pulling numbers from ToRhead? Comparing apples and oranges in a way that makes your outrage justified? Why are you outraged? Are you having trouble keeping people alive? I can help you out with that if you need it.

 

We deserve an apology and compensation? Are you out of your mind or just a troll?

 

Sure;

 

And the ability that you have to cast to get tactical advantage during a boss fight?

Do those trigger the global cool down?

[snargs]

The ability which you are using to actually heal, which you would use regardless? Yes, it does cost a GCD.

[All_Under_Heaven]

Not enough. We deserve compensation for what they have put this class through. Nerfs that have driven over half of the operatives playing in this game to reroll or cancel sub.

 

Whoa there, you need to chill out.

 

I admire the titanic amount of mathematical data you compiled in this thread. However...all of that potentially useful data was burnt to a crisp the second you started acting like an ***. Instead of being detached and stoic in poise, you're now the crazy homeless man yelling at people on the sidewalk, holding a sign with your data on it.

 

And Operatives deserving compensation? That's not how it works. If the Operative class is underperforming, Devs will boost it until it is on-par of their expectations. (Which they have already stated they will.) You expect them to give a single class an edge over another, just because they underperformed for a small time? That's called imbalance, and then we'd be right back where we started.

 

Medic Operative's usually don't have trouble healing, because they never run out of heals. I have an Operative friend who's healed groups for me since level 24, all the way into HM's now, and she's never once dipped below 50% Energy in regular healing situations.

[ironix]

My point is, throughput is insignificant when comparing classes that have no problem keeping up with damage in any encounter. I cleared EV and KP on NMM with little personal challenge. I heal more effectively than other Sorc healers according to my MT. I feel very poweful.

 

You're basically telling me that if you're tank healing, your other healer is not a merc. Given how precarious healing through burst AoE can be as an operative, your other healer cannot be another operative. That leads to the conclusion that you're healing with a sorc on your team.

 

Healing the tank and providing some topping off here and there is stupendously easy as any healer, operative included. However, I highly doubt you'd think your job were easy if you were responsible for keeping the raid alive while the other healer was relegated to the tank.

 

What is at issue here is that given our limitations (managing burst raid damage) and our general lack of utility (offering any armour buffs for the tank, absorbs, knockbacks, pulls, etc...), why would anyone want to bring an operative (yet alone TWO hahaha) as a healer for difficult content?

 

I'm not arguing that we can't clear content, because technically we can (when paired with a sorcerer at least), but competitively, given the options, what do we bring that a merc can't do better or a sorc do in their sleep?

 

EDIT: As for the OP, I think perhaps you're coming off a touch too enraged about the issue. Asking for compensation and an apology is going overboard and it will never happen. Best you can do is ask for them to create a level playing field for the healers and not require every operation to have a sorc on hand.

Edited March 5, 2012 by ironix

[hulkweazel]

Not enough. We deserve compensation for what they have put this class through. Nerfs that have driven over half of the operatives playing in this game to reroll or cancel sub.

 

Having to work so much harder than other classes for so little reward. Being outdone in almost every area by sorcerers by over 2x (yes sorcerers can do over 2x as much healing as an operative in ANY situation). They can also sustain that indefinitely.

 

 

No; a possible fix 5 months from now is not enough. We deserve a formal apology and compensation. Especially after a unnecessary sledgehammer nerf of 20% to our concealment damage (which was already subpar to sorcerers and mercenaries), still no fix to lethality which remains useless past tier 3 and a healing class that is beyond subpar, it is outdone by sorceres over 2 fold.

Are you serious? You aren't entitled to anything. Money speaks louder than words, don't like how they're doing things, unsubscribe. Fixing a class in five months is actually pretty good in MMO terms.

 

Some classes in WoW weren't fixed for five YEARS, some were never fixed PERIOD. I played a Paladin in Vanilla WoW. Trust me, Ops have it GOOD compared to that mess - they were a class that couldn't heal any endgame content, couldn't tank any endgame content, and were completely useless in PvP because they had no range, no damage, and no snares/stuns. And that's just Paladins - Druids, Hunters and Warlocks were just as broken.

[snargs]

I agree on your point on the Armor buff, but you are seriously downplaying the Op class. I'm OK with classes having their niches, and Sorcs filling the burst AoE role, but the only major bursty AoE in any operation is the first boss in EV, which is extremely predictable and involves very little raid damage in the other phases. In this case you can prepare by HoTing raid members. This fight is difficult without the Sorc's AoE burst, but the Operative's AoE HoT is useful in many other situations, such as the Fabricator, Jarg/Sorno, Karagga, and Soa. In some of these cases it is difficult to hit a large amount of raid members with the Sorc AoE. Personally, I wouldn't trade Nanotech for a more bursty, longer cooldown AoE.