Is dual spec fair to pure damage classes?

[DarkoDon]

All dual spec is gonna do is add more complaints bout people rolling on gear someone else can use. Not only can they roll on gear for thier companions, they now will be able to roll for thier dual spec. Might as well just have loot randomly distributed after a boss kill with no looting whatsoever. I'm sorry, this game can use some more tools, but as far as making it like completely like WoW is driving me away. I have a 6 month sub and im not playing till after 1.2. And we'll see after i check that out if i'm ever gonna play again.

 

We need better space combat, better ui, and SOME add-ons. Along with more content as the game progresses and better pvp and bug fixes. Dual spec=delchar

[Ganjiang]

All dual spec is gonna do is add more complaints bout people rolling on gear someone else can use. Not only can they roll on gear for thier companions, they now will be able to roll for thier dual spec.

 

People are already rolling on gear for a spec they aren't currently using. I see it often enough whenever I run HM FPs. Nothing right now is discouraging players from rolling on gear when it can be used for a different spec.

[Dystopic]

Yeah it's not fair. Who wants a PVP spec and a raid spec?

 

But really, everyone knew dual spec was going to happen. And everyone knew what they were doing when the picked a pure class. Let it go.

 

I do think it was dumb to even make pure specs, bioware should have never made them. But they did. Then people were dumb enough to roll them.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Dystopic

[Thaed]

Yup. Edit: I mean no.

 

I'm a Sniper, and I want them.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Thaed

[DarthSeidhr]

Yeah it's not fair. Who wants a PVP spec and a raid spec?

 

But really, everyone knew dual spec was going to happen. And everyone knew what they were doing when the picked a pure class. Let it go.

 

I do think it was dumb to even make pure specs, bioware should have never made them. But they did. Then people were dumb enough to roll them.

 

I don't think everyone knew dual spec was going to happen. I certainly had no inkling that it was going to happen when I created my character. I suppose I should have anticipated it rather quickly thereafter though. When you're playing what turns out to be WoW painted with Star Wars IP you're bound to end up with WoW problems and WoW solutions to those problems. I guess I'll just quit for now and come back when they add death knights or space pandas.

[Azumio]

I don't think everyone knew dual spec was going to happen. I certainly had no inkling that it was going to happen when I created my character. I suppose I should have anticipated it rather quickly thereafter though. When you're playing what turns out to be WoW painted with Star Wars IP you're bound to end up with WoW problems and WoW solutions to those problems. I guess I'll just quit for now and come back when they add death knights or space pandas.

 

Gungan or Ewoks for Star Wars.

 

You know it's going to happen.

[jdi_knght]

One option would be to revamp one trees from each pure DPS AC to give it significant utility, but this would be a lot of time and work.

That's an option, and one that's been suggested in the past (though not for dual-spec reasons).

 

However, in the case of the Watchman Sentinel (and equivalent Mara), there's already some utility provided via group healing from burns/bleeds. It's already very competitive in terms of dps too.

 

GS/Snipers are the only ones that really don't have a tree that have obvious additional raid utility (as far as I know anyway).

 

 

Another option would be to disallow changing specializations mid instance. In other words, if someone leaves the instance to change specialization they can't get back in. The instance would have to be reset and the group would have to start over from the beginning.

 

I don't think this would go over well - it essentially turns dual-spec into a PvP-oriented feature.

 

 

---

 

 

All that said, as a Sentinel (my primary char), I don't mind dual-spec - in that I mean don't think it treats me unfairly. Both my specs would be nearly identical with only minor talent changes mind you.

[perato]

Good question and some good points.

 

It will still be useful to the pure dps classes though in that (speaking from a sentinel perspective) a lot of skills are specifically for PvP, so one can still have a pve and a pvp spec. but yeah in terms of raiding/HMs it's pretty much useless for the dps classes so they should really have something else to compensate.

[ConradLionhart]

For some people, dual specs seems to give the impression that it favors hybrid classes that can tank and/or heal and leaves pure dps classes in the dust.

 

Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

Dual specs do not reward hybrid classes that can tank/heal. Honestly now, dps classes, ask yourselves this: when is tanking or healing EVER a reward? There is a reason why you choose to dps, because healing and tanking are such chores to you.

 

Dual specs are there to help dps classes, because it makes it possible for potential tanks or healers to have a secondary spec that can tank/heal. And if we have more tanks or healers, that means you do not have to wait too long for them in order to get a flash point going. Without dual specs, someone who is willing to tank/heal has to pay expensive respecs in order to do so, which is very unrealistic.

 

My above example shows that dual specs indirectly helps dps, but to say that it doesn't directly help dps classes at all is wrong. Even if your trees only do dps, there are different types of dps.

Some dps trees are only good for pve. Some are only good for pvp. And it is even possible that some are only good for dungeons and some are only good for raids.

 

An intangible reason would be, some dps trees are more fun than others. Some people roll a tank class like jedi knight just to dps, and will never tank. Why don't they roll a pure dps class instead? Because they don't find it fun. Different dps trees can have different fun.

 

The fear that hybrid classes' versality will make pure dps classes obsolete is a fear that is misplaced. People also argued this in WoW but it didn't make dps classes obsolete. Even if multi-role classes do as much dps as pure dps classes, it still won't make dps classes obsolete. Because not everyone who roles a tank/healer class to dps, will do so. If this was true, there would be no tank shortage. If people roll a jedi knight to dps, they will only dps.

 

And in order for the scenario to happen where people would rather bring a hybrid than a pure dps class to an operation for dps, that means there are way too many tanks in the game. Wow, imagine never having to wait for a queue.

Edited March 1, 2012 by ConradLionhart

[NoxiousAlby]

You miss the flip side of that though, in the event of a shortage of tanks or healers, dual specs that can spec into healing or tanking are EXPECTED to heal or tank. As a pure damage class, nobody expects you to play something you would rather not play.

 

Pure DPS classes actually are at an advantage, we get to spec pve & pvp. The best of both worlds

[Keldain]

Dual specs are there to help dps classes, because it makes it possible for potential tanks or healers to have a secondary spec that can tank/heal. And if we have more tanks or healers, that means you do not have to wait too long for them in order to get a flash point going. Without dual specs, someone who is willing to tank/heal has to pay expensive respecs in order to do so, which is very unrealistic.

 

QFT - if we had dual spec right now, my Infiltration Shadow would be in your Maelstrom Prison tanking the crap outta it. Instead you're sitting on the fleet spamming LF1M Tank Maestrom Prison in general.

[oakamp]

we dont care,

what we really need is AC change system,

science BW lie to us about AC description,

we need one time or a fee to change AC,

we dont care about spec.

[Noirmorris]

Advanced classes are not..advanced. This is just a game where you decide your class at level 10 , that's all.

So, imho, changing AC would be a mistake and tbh I don't think this will happen. About dual spec is different, it's a change inside the same character that can help community.

[Pandabutt]

You fail to see how each class fills a very particular role. While only 2 classes have a defined role to them all classes have a niche they fill.

 

Guardian/Juggernaut: Main Melee Tank - the classic tanks everyone is accustomed to

 

Vanguard/Powertech: Ranged Tank/DPS - standard DPS with tanking abilities, built for kiting boss fights while still able to take hits if needed.

 

Shadow/Assassin: Off Tank/Debuff DoT DPS - masters of DoTs and Debuffs with minimal tanking skills

 

Scoundrel/Operative: Spam Heal/DPS - standard DPS with high quantity of heals with a high spam rate, exceptional when the pressure is on.

 

Sage/Sorcerer: Burst Heal/Debuff DoT DPS - Heavy burst heals and shields with numerous DoTs and Debuffs, can burn out quickly when pressured though.

 

Commando/Mercenary: Protection Heal/Pressure DPS - Multipurpose heals and shields along side heavy pressure DPS ranged skills

 

Sentinel/Marauder: Heavy Pressure Melee DPS: your typical melee DPS class built to pressure a single target

 

Gunslinger/Sniper: Ranged Spike DPS: while they may not have a high DPS rating their spike damage is second to none, recomended to focus on the tanks target as damage from spike classes can easily pull aggro off even the most skilled of tanks.

 

 

While the dual spec may not seem beneficial to pure DPS classes at first glance, there are particularly beneficial uses to it when you inspect the skill trees furthar. The Gunslinger/Sniper can spec one way for primary spike damage while another spec increases their DoT damage.

 

Some may dismiss the pure DPS classes as weaker than their multirole counter parts but in actual practice they are every bit their equal if not superior in their own reguards. Try as you might with a DPS specd Scoundrel or Operative, you will never match the spike damage of a Gunslinger or Sniper. Even a DPS specd Guardian/Juggernaut can't compare to the raw pressure a Sentinel/Marauder can maintain. While these multitalent ACs may have higher survivability their counterparts are built to kill before that survivability is needed.

[Evironrage]

No it isn't, but those of us that signed up for pure dps roles knew that going in.

If you were one of the few who actually believed that BW was going to hold to their original position of only one spec per char you were delusional. I knew my Gungslinger was going to get the shaft, but I wanted to play one and am fine not having the utility all of the hybrid classes offer.

My guild won't push me out of raids simply because I can't heal or tank on a whim. If your's does perhaps you are playing with the wrong peeps. Just saying.

Bring on the dual specs. It will offer more options for those still having to spam "LFG/LFM tank/heals HM in gen chat.

Next on the list BW, make a freaking dungeon finder server wide and get into the now. The community building exercise via not having one failed miserably.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Evironrage

[Goretzu]

My personal opinion is no.

 

 

 

Largely...... it certainly has more benifit to tank/DPS and especially DPS/Healer classes.

 

Having said that it probably would still be useful to DPS/DPS classes allowing them some flexibility to different circumstances.

 

I could see definate PvE and PvP specs for Jedi Sentinel for example.

[Pink_Saber]

Dual-spec is not "unfair" to anyone. It's a feature you can use or not. Sure, it's not as useful to a full-time PVE pure-DPS class as some others, but it's silly to call that "unfair."

 

It almost sounds like you're expecting some compensation if a feature is added that other people will use more than you do, and that's just silly. It's not unfair that you were given an option to play a pure DPS class, and took it. That was your decision.

[terminova]

This is part of the reason I am wary of dual-speccing. My Guardian is a tank, Scoundrel is dps, and Sage is healer. Not even sure if I am going to dual-spec any of them; although, I know that people run with groups that would force folks like me to dual-spec my characters.

 

I always told people "No, I came as DPS, I'm staying as DPS."

[Dayfax]

It almost sounds like you're expecting some compensation if a feature is added that other people will use more than you do, and that's just silly. It's not unfair that you were given an option to play a pure DPS class, and took it. That was your decision.

 

If I had to guess, I'd guess that the OP's subtext here is that pures should do more DPS than hybrids. Old, old argument.

 

Slightly off-topic, but: Dual specs are yet another nasty "quality of life" feature thst don't really solve the problems they're supposed to solve. Worse, they completely defeat the purpose of having a spec in the first place. My 2 credits.

[Goretzu]

Dual-spec is not "unfair" to anyone. It's a feature you can use or not. Sure, it's not as useful to a full-time PVE pure-DPS class as some others, but it's silly to call that "unfair."

 

It almost sounds like you're expecting some compensation if a feature is added that other people will use more than you do, and that's just silly. It's not unfair that you were given an option to play a pure DPS class, and took it. That was your decision.

 

Well if they rolled a DPS before dual-spec was said to becoming then they have a point.

 

Really speaking given how they've set up the classes in SWTOR it's a bit strange there are any pure DPS classes at all.

 

They probably all could have been DPS/Tank or DPS/Healing.

 

Otherwise when you start going down the multi-spec route you're largely better with Rift's system - although that opens a whole new can of worms PvE and PvP balance-wise.

[KurleyKilla]

I don't recall ever saying that I thought completely changing roles in a party was the only reason to have two specs. I didn't address having PvP and PvE specs because both pure AC's and non-pure AC's will be able to do that to the same degree using dual spec. Being able to completely change roles in a party on a whim is what dual spec will allow the non-pure AC's to do. It will add that to their utility while the pure AC's get no equally valuable benefit.

 

 

I'd consider it an near equal benefit.

 

If you where using a non-pure AC yea you have a few more options... so what?

 

If it truly bothers you, make more then one character.

 

Many including myself, demand/want/crave dual spec for all our characters including our pure AC's.

 

Dual spec will honestly bring nothing but positive change to this game world and it's astonishing to me that your only reason for being against it is that it just isn't "fair"

 

 

Even though, come on... it's totally fair.. who cares man lol..

 

Dual spec FTW

 

What is your solution to this "issue" then? No one gets dual spec? Are you wanting new talent trees for those Pure AC classes that allow them to heal or tank?

[Draylore]

Well by definition "pure" classes serve a single role. Their advantages is they have many ways to fill that roll depending on situation or need.

 

I had 2 'main' toons in EQ2.....a Assassin(DPS) and Guardian(tank). EQ2 had sorta a dual spec thing in that we could have a 2nd AA setup. I used it far far more on my Assassin than I did on my Guardian. Depending on content type.....group/raid and encounter types I would use a different 'DPS' spec.

 

In rift of my five "specs" four were purely for DPS.

 

I have a Sentinal in SWTOR and I can see a definite advantage for having dual spec.

 

I also have a Jugg which I would like dual spec option.

 

Neither will have more of an advantage over the other imo.

[TheOnlyKyrenS]

sure it can, and here is my reason why. Each of the damage trees in the marauder trees are geared towards something different. I don't remember the names of the trees so bare with me. The left one is more of a damage over time and is good for leveling where the middle on is good for burst dps and raiding. not sure the right one because i haven't given it a try yet because of the respec costs.

[flyersfan]

My personal opinion is no.

 

The gunslinger/sniper and sentinel/marauder have three trees that all do one thing - damage.

 

You knew what you were getting into when you picked the AC. You knew that there was nothing that you could do other than hit an enemy really hard.

 

In my opinion, yes, it's equally as fair. You can still have dual specialisations. There is no difference on how many specialisations that you can have due to AC.

 

What I foresee is pure AC's being less desirable for operations and flashpoints due to their lower adaptive utility.

 

Sentinels and Gunslingers have exceptional utility. For Sentinels, Inspiration & Transcendence are absolutely awesome abilities. They effect the whole group and are great in a pinch. Transcendence even gives 20 Centering back with the correct skill points distributed. Gunslingers also have that giant shield orb thing. There are other reasons to pick an AC rather than just because they can switch to being a terrible tank/healer with no gear or skill.

[Azumio]

sure it can, and here is my reason why. Each of the damage trees in the marauder trees are geared towards something different. I don't remember the names of the trees so bare with me. The left one is more of a damage over time and is good for leveling where the middle on is good for burst dps and raiding. not sure the right one because i haven't given it a try yet because of the respec costs.

 

Watchmen (DoT's, Single Target)

Combat (Not sure, never used it)

Focus (Not sure, never used it)

 

Every Sentinel I run into uses Watchmen, so not sure how Combat is. Though I thought it was more an AoE aimed Spec. which would increase your damage in Warzones (Instead of hitting 1 target for 4k, you hit 5 targets for 4k etc.)