Performance issues linked to BW's Engine or Customers "Low end Pcs"

[Vulgarr]

This...

 

if you can proove that its totally the engine, then maybe we can start something....

well seeing as there has never been 1 pic or video of someone on ilum in a big fight with 30 or above fps, on this forum or on youtube, i have to agree with that other guy.

 

pics/video or it aint happenin.

[Zyanzor]

All im asking for is PROOF that you people saying "oh well i dont have any performance issues, get better hardware" I want you to go to Ilum and make a video of a 20v20 fight and make sure you have ur FPS showing, I guarantee NOT one person can run over 60 FPS, NOT one. This engine that BW is running DOES need work, stop blaming performance issues on there hardware.

 

I only made this thread because someone made a post about how BWs engine needs work, and everyone flamed the guy saying "they have no problems and the OP needs to fix his hardware

 

Again I want to see a reply with a 10v10 or more Ilum battle with 60+ FPS...... Prove us wrong.

 

How about you show us your awesome PC running SWTOR in Ilum so you can prove to all the Biodrones that even powerful computers have trouble playing SWTOR in Ilum...because I have yet to see that on these forums anywhere. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Video please not a photoshopped screenshot...

[chaniwan]

Pretty sure its biowares engine thats bad, I have i7 overclocked to 4.2 ghz and one of them new ati7970 cards and I still have sub 20fps on ilum when over 20 people on screen /rage not to mention the game stuttering when new people appear on screen.

[Jagerinho]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=317352

 

Read this thread, some good theories in there.

[_Flin_]

No... People are clearly complaining about not getting 60 fps. This is the whole argument. And I dont get it. I am happy with 30 fps. So again since you missed the whole question. Why all the hoopla about getting 60 fps when alot of them wouldnt even know the difference unless the little ticker told them?

 

Actually it is not the whole argument.

 

I get 6-9 fps in Alderaan WZ, 2-4 on Ilum, 13-15 on fleet on high and 23-30 fps on low settings, aa off, shadows off, plus turned down 1280x800 resolution.

 

This on an i7 870, GTX 550Ti, 12 GB RAM 1333.

 

So it is not about 60 fps. It is about being unplayable.

[Vulgarr]

How about you show us your awesome PC running SWTOR in Ilum so you can prove to all the Biodrones that even powerful computers have trouble playing SWTOR in Ilum...because I have yet to see that on these forums anywhere. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Video please not a photoshopped screenshot...

better yet, no camera needed, we dont need to see your ghetto pcs, all we want to see is a simple video of ilum running at a decent framerate.

 

decent is 30 or above.

 

peak time, 100 people in zone. during a battle. simple.

 

i hear from the TOR forums that Emachines are beast. prove it to us.

[Zyanzor]

Actually it is not the whole argument.

 

I get 6-9 fps in Alderaan WZ, 2-4 on Ilum, 13-15 on fleet on high and 23-30 fps on low settings, aa off, shadows off, plus turned down 1280x800 resolution.

 

This on an i7 870, GTX 550Ti, 12 GB RAM 1333.

 

So it is not about 60 fps. It is about being unplayable.

 

Liar.....

[PostalTwinkie]

That's not proof that the engine isn't optimized now. That's proof it wasn't finished then....2004? 2005?

 

You left out the very next part:

 

"He didn’t care. “We are going to have tons of engineers. We can finish it ourselves. We’re going to want to modify your source code for our special project anyway.” "

 

So it's interesting to see you say: "You are not going to tell me that BioWare took a product that was not finished, optimized, or ready for production, and finished building it for use."

 

...when the very next part of what you quoted says exactly that.

 

BioWare can say whatever they want, it is obvious they didn't fix the issues. If you continued reading through the entire linked article you would see where Niel goes on to say that very little of HeroEngine is even left in SWTOR, based off what they can see.

 

Let me bring this into a couple of scenarios that you, and others, may relate with....

 

The situation would be like if Dodge went to Ford and bought an F-150 prototype, the pre-production model. They then took it to their facilities and replaced the engine with one of their own, the transmission, the suspension, modified the chassis to their own. They even go as far as to put their own body styling on it, etc. Then in the end left the F-150 nameplates on the truck.

 

Sorry folks, that isn't an F-150 anymore, it is a Dodge 1500.

 

The other example....

 

A person is building a a system around the Intel processor. They have the chassis together, board is in, other components are getting ready to be put in, it is almost done. At that point someone comes along and buys the system from them. That new owner then swaps out the Intel based parts for AMD and processor. The new owner then sticks Intel stickers to the chassis.

 

The point I am making is that you can take a product, but after a certain point of modification it is no longer that original product. You can keep the name all you want, but the reality is you no longer have the original product. We have the COO and President of HeroEngine telling us that it has been...

 

1. Over three years since BioWare took a code dump from them
   
2. BioWare originally purchased a pre-production product that still have rough draft code in it.
   
3. Very little of HeroEngine is actually left within SWTOR
   

 

You can be a FanBoy all you want and try to defend BioWare, but you are only going to look funny doing it. Here is some additional reading I keep handy for you Fanboys....

 

Major publishers and notable sources within the industry, but of course they don't know what they are talking about either when they mention the issues. It must be their systems, or something else.......

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

GameInformer March 2012 Issue:

"My biggest complaint about SWTOR isn't that it apes World of Warcraft circa 2006 in every major gameplay system. That's a decent enough design by itself, and BioWare does a good job using those tools to create interesting encounters. The larger problem is the shoddy technical implementation. There is no reason my power machine's framerate should chug in the low teens in hub areas."

 

If you have a current subscription to GameInformer you can find this in the March issue, or go online and log-in to view the entire article in their "Massive" section of the magazine.

 

Next we have Tom's Hardware (Done just before release):

"Although it doesn't look particularly demanding, Star Wars: The Old Republic seems to require mid-range graphics hardware in order to run smoothly. The Radeon HD 6450 GDDR5 is a fairly respectable low-end card, yet it couldn't muster a minimum 30 FPS at 1280x1024 using the lowest available detail settings. That's a pretty high requirement for an MMO, a genre that traditionally targets low-end integrated graphics hardware in order to accommodate the largest possible install base."

 

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...ew,3087-4.html

 

Another quote from the article on Tom's:

"The point, however, is that Bioware has more work to do on its 3D engine prior to launch, and we'll be looking out to see if anti-aliasing is fixed by December 20th. "

 

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...ew,3087-6.html

 

Another quote, pertaining to "High" settings:

"The GeForce GTX 460, 550 Ti, Radeon HD 6850, and 5770 are immediately kicked out of the running with minimum frame rates below 25 FPS. At 1680x1050, the GeForce GTX 460 SLI combo struggles to achieve a minimum frame rate of 30"

 

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...ew,3087-7.html

 

 

EDIT: Further on the "optimized" issue. If this game was remotely optimized, we wouldn't have to be doing this.....

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=154568&highlight=RAMDRIVE

Edited March 1, 2012 by PostalTwinkie

[_Flin_]

Liar.....

 

Whatever.

 

I know it to be true and it is true.

 

When we stand in raid on Ilum, hardly anyone has more than 5 fps.

 

When I play Alderaan, the fps get so bad that I cant do the jump up on the western side to take the shortcut from turret to middle.

 

I tried a lot, tweaked settings, drivers, ini file, resolution. Everything short of a full OS install, which I wont do, since I am too old for this and do not have enough time to do so.

[TBowler]

Okay, so we all know that some people on high end rigs are having problem. What the guy posted was he didn't believe anyone was getting good fps on ILUM and Ilum only... He made a challenge saying that if anyone posts a video of playing Ilum with 60+fps in a 10v10 battle, he will shut up and quite frankly so will a lot of other people. He is not asking for proof of nothing, I am not even going to get into how stupid that one sounds, he is asking for proof that people are getting 60+ fps on Ilum. Considering it is possible to proof that right... yeah for the sake of getting flagged I'm just going to stop now. So post the video or listen to people complain. You have the opportunity to shut these people up, if you don't take it of course everyone is going to think you're lying.

[Citronvand]

How about you show us your awesome PC running SWTOR in Ilum so you can prove to all the Biodrones that even powerful computers have trouble playing SWTOR in Ilum...because I have yet to see that on these forums anywhere. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Video please not a photoshopped screenshot...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fvu699u_6aU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z77Za6DpIdg

[TBowler]

Okay, so he has proved he has a top end system and it is very laggy. Now prove that your system is not laggy.

[PostalTwinkie]

Okay, so we all know that some people on high end rigs are having problem. What the guy posted was he didn't believe anyone was getting good fps on ILUM and Ilum only... He made a challenge saying that if anyone posts a video of playing Ilum with 60+fps in a 10v10 battle, he will shut up and quite frankly so will a lot of other people. He is not asking for proof of nothing, I am not even going to get into how stupid that one sounds, he is asking for proof that people are getting 60+ fps on Ilum. Considering it is possible to proof that right... yeah for the sake of getting flagged I'm just going to stop now. So post the video or listen to people complain. You have the opportunity to shut these people up, if you don't take it of course everyone is going to think you're lying.

 

Here are a few things that end up coming out in the end of these conversations.

 

• The people that claim they are getting awesome performance or great performance have never actually watched their frame rate and resource usage.
  
• There isn't going to be a video produced of 60 fps+ on Ilum in a 10 v 10 or 20 v 20, because they engine just can't handle it right now.
  
• Major publishers within the industry have documented and experienced the issues being discussed, which I have shown on a previous post.
  

 

People by nature are going to vehemently defend what they are invested into, either by time, money, or both. People feel that if they admit something they're personally invested in has failed, or is flawed, that they are some how flawed or have failed themselves. Because of this we are always going to have the "fanboy", the person that will defend their investment in the face of any evidence.

Edited February 29, 2012 by PostalTwinkie

[Syylara]

You have a flawed understanding of where the burden of proof rests. You are the one with the claim (that the engine is poorly optimized, that BW is lying, that meteor showers are causing Ilum pvp to be slow). Thus, you have the burden of proof.

 

This...

 

if you can proove that its totally the engine, then maybe we can start something....

 

Then doesn't the same "burden of proof" exist for Bioware to back up its claim that only a tiny minority of players who are on lower-end machines experience these issues?

[Vulgarr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fvu699u_6aU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z77Za6DpIdg

that first one is my video LMAO!

[TBowler]

Then doesn't the same "burden of proof" exist for Bioware to back up its claim that only a tiny minority of players who are on lower-end machines experience these issues?

 

There is no burden of proof with this post though, because these fanboys can proof themselves right by posting a video. PERIOD!

[Sofie_Fatale]

I would like to add this info but no I am not including a movie.

 

I had been playing on an older PC, quad core with GTX8800, XP with 3 gigs of ram. Game ran fine, got up to 28 fps in normal areas, WZ would become a problem when everyone kinda piled into a big fight and it would drop to only a few fps but I was able to play though it most of the time. I finally started fighting on lium and when their would great big fights the fps dropped to pretty much nothing but I would just spam tracer and hope for the best. Since I was playing Imps I would survive the fight most of the time and get points so whatever I thought.

 

However I got bonus from work could of weeks ago, so I bought myself a really nice PC, 6 core 4.3 processors, dual 580 vid cards, 16gigs of ram and thinking ok reps look out I can fight you now.

 

And it is true in a fight when lium is full, when all the aoes are flashing I get about 20fps give or take. Its enough for me to fight very well but still seems pretty lame imo

 

Another thing I noticed is that anytime I join an ops group there, the lag is really bad specially when a base is captured, even when not in an ops group their is a lag spike for a second during the announcement. So I don't join ops groups for that reason.

 

In wz now I do not have any problems but still the fps is about 30 at best. However, everyday at least twice, the game just locks up the pc and I have to hard boot it. I set it to run as XP and that seems to have helped a little but I am not sure.

 

I have played a lot of mmo's and my feelings is this engine is not to good for mass pvp.

[Afflictionz]

Here are a few things that end up coming out in the end of these conversations.

 

• The people that claim they are getting awesome performance or great performance have never actually watched their frame rate and resource usage.
  
• There isn't going to be a video produced of 60 fps+ on Ilum in a 10 v 10 or 20 v 20, because they engine just can't handle it right now.
  
• Major publishers within the industry have documented and experienced the issues being discussed, which I have shown on a previous post.
  

 

People by nature are going to vehemently defend what they are invested into, either by time, money, or both. People feel that if they admit something they're personally invested in has failed, or is flawed, that they are some how flawed or have failed themselves. Because of this we are always going to have the "fanboy", the person that will defend their investment in the face of any evidence.

 

Exactly, ty

[Larce_Apollo]

I would like to add this info but no I am not including a movie.

 

I had been playing on an older PC, quad core with GTX8800, XP with 3 gigs of ram. Game ran fine, got up to 28 fps in normal areas, WZ would become a problem when everyone kinda piled into a big fight and it would drop to only a few fps but I was able to play though it most of the time. I finally started fighting on lium and when their would great big fights the fps dropped to pretty much nothing but I would just spam tracer and hope for the best. Since I was playing Imps I would survive the fight most of the time and get points so whatever I thought.

 

However I got bonus from work could of weeks ago, so I bought myself a really nice PC, 6 core 4.3 processors, dual 580 vid cards, 16gigs of ram and thinking ok reps look out I can fight you now.

 

And it is true in a fight when lium is full, when all the aoes are flashing I get about 20fps give or take. Its enough for me to fight very well but still seems pretty lame imo

 

Another thing I noticed is that anytime I join an ops group there, the lag is really bad specially when a base is captured, even when not in an ops group their is a lag spike for a second during the announcement. So I don't join ops groups for that reason.

 

In wz now I do not have any problems but still the fps is about 30 at best. However, everyday at least twice, the game just locks up the pc and I have to hard boot it. I set it to run as XP and that seems to have helped a little but I am not sure.

 

I have played a lot of mmo's and my feelings is this engine is not to good for mass pvp.

 

Pretty much the same experience for me, to the point I will not stream PvP anymore when I livestream due to the technical issues this game has with PvP.

 

I putz about in another game today and was suprised to top over 200FPS in it, forgot my card could do that.

[Noctournys]

All im asking for is PROOF that you people saying "oh well i dont have any performance issues, get better hardware" I want you to go to Ilum and make a video of a 20v20 fight and make sure you have ur FPS showing, I guarantee NOT one person can run over 60 FPS, NOT one. This engine that BW is running DOES need work, stop blaming performance issues on there hardware.

 

I only made this thread because someone made a post about how BWs engine needs work, and everyone flamed the guy saying "they have no problems and the OP needs to fix his hardware

 

Again I want to see a reply with a 10v10 or more Ilum battle with 60+ FPS...... Prove us wrong.

 

you dont need 60+fps to be playable.

 

End of the day, im not going to go to Illum for you. I dont enjoy it, n ever did, and while i went there .... twice to get the weekly done before i got a full set of Champ, i dont go anymore.

 

I didnt have performance issues when i was there, though, even at the "base camp" with tons of people. Was it 60fps+ the entire time? God no.

 

Was it playable (20-25fps?) yes.

 

This is an area where people's memories suck - to this day, i STILL drop to single-digit framerates when flying into Orgrimmar in WoW. Large numbers of people on the screen of any MMO that utilized predictive pathing will bring low framerates - the CPU is choking.

 

Given that most of my friends who had framerate issues cleared them up via BIOS/EFI updates, Throttlestop, or other ways of fixing their harebrained CPU problems... the problems aren't all with the engine.

[Myria_K]

He made a challenge saying that if anyone posts a video of playing Ilum with 60+fps in a 10v10 battle, he will shut up and quite frankly so will a lot of other people.

 

Oh puhlease, not a chance in hell they'd shut up. Neither side is in the least bit interested in what the other has to say and the notion that you can just "demand proof" and have anyone give enough of a rat's arse to be bothered to play your asinine little game is so absurd as to bugger credulity.

 

There is no "I demand proof, and since no one produced exactly what I want I win!!!11!!", that kind of idiocy doesn't even play well in kindergarten playgrounds.

 

Look, you think the game runs like crap? Unsub, find something else to play, and be done with it. Act like a bloody adult for a change, don't come here thinking anyone who doesn't already agree with you gives a rat's behind about your pathetic little temper tantrum.

[Benfynyn]

I find that, at best, spurious and at worst deliberate hyperbole.

 

You are asserting that there is no one who can run the game without problems that doesn't participate in the boards or look at the FPS issues.

 

I can sustain around 38 to 40 FPS on Ilum in a 10 on 10 fight. It's not really irritating, but again, not only do I have a monstrous $3000 rig but I am rolling on a T1. I haven't really weighed into the FPS debates much before today, and I'm not doing so now because of any effect on me personally, but because I dislike chop-logic.

 

And that's what most of these statements are. We know most of the issues with FPS are in PVP , Ilum and the occasional 16-man raid towards the end. We know these are very vocal groups about all manner of things. And we know that with all the QQ on these forums that the big Three complaints (FPS-ability delay/nerfs/faction balance) get splashed all over the place.

 

Yet none of these people -- not one -- can post anything backing up what Bioware is stating?

 

My own personal situation makes it pretty plain that if the issue is primarily that of the client side, and the engine is well optimized, that anyone with complaints should be in the minority. We see plenty of people saying "I have no FPS issues in the fleet". We see plenty of people saying "I have no ability delay". We have plenty of people saying " I can run with full shadows and AA and get no lag".

 

We have no one at all , ever, stating "I can run PVP 10 v 10 or 15 vs 15 with 50 FPS". I find the probability that these mystical good-gaming-experience people are simply too enthralled with PVP to bother to post on the forums ... ahem, unlikely to say the least.

 

^^This, forever this.

[Afflictionz]

Oh puhlease, not a chance in hell they'd shut up. Neither side is in the least bit interested in what the other has to say and the notion that you can just "demand proof" and have anyone give enough of a rat's arse to be bothered to play your asinine little game is so absurd as to bugger credulity.

 

There is no "I demand proof, and since no one produced exactly what I want I win!!!11!!", that kind of idiocy doesn't even play well in kindergarten playgrounds.

 

Look, you think the game runs like crap? Unsub, find something else to play, and be done with it. Act like a bloody adult for a change, don't come here thinking anyone who doesn't already agree with you gives a rat's behind about your pathetic little temper tantrum.

 

I like this game, I'm addicted and working on my 3rd lvl 50. So no I'm not unsubbing, it's just annoying when someone says BW your engine needs work, we don't need a new even lower performance tab to toggle on ( which they are implementing ) to help the game it's YOUR engine, but everyone flames the guy saying it's not the engine get better HW " my game runs perfect", that is total bs. And sorry if this is written bad, I'm on my iPhone at work

Edited February 29, 2012 by Afflictionz

[Afflictionz]

Quote:

TheJestersHat: What is BioWare planning to do about performance issues that people get with Warzone, open world PVP, and general FPS issues?

 

Damion Schubert: We have an internal strike team that is fully devoted to ensuring that the game runs better and faster, especially on low end machines, and we consider this team's work to be a crucial internal initiative. You should see evidence of this work as soon as Patch 1.1.5, when we will be introducing a new 'very low' setting to shader quality, which should drastically increase the number of mid-to-low machines the game can run well on, especially in Warzones and Operations.

[Saiaku]

If you can play BF3 and still get bad fps and overall performance on TOR, it is definately not the hardware.