Performance issues linked to BW's Engine or Customers "Low end Pcs"

[Vulgarr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6wQuwY1J-k&feature=youtu.be

nice 10fps video. LMAO

[Quraswren]

While I don't doubt some issues rely on the engine needing optimization, I think the majority of the Frame problems we see are due to the players PC's.

[DigitalPrime]

While I don't doubt some issues rely on the engine needing optimization, I think the majority of the Frame problems we see are due to the players PC's.

 

LOL its the engine, My god what other MMO or game has this many people with FPS issues.

 

I upped my system two weeks ago

 

i7 2700k stock

Asrock Extreme 4 Gen 3

ATI 7970 black edition

16gig Corsair vengance

SSD OZ 128gb

Win7

 

The game runs fine in most cases, leveling, flashpoints etc. But...

 

The same as my old system, when i get to Ilum it drops below 30 fps in a big battle

WZ, Alderaan, When the turrets start firing, the framerates drop below half.

 

This happens to everyone in my guild, and the 2 systems I have run this game on. Second system should eat this game up and spit it out. First system was minimum spec.

 

Ive mingled with drivers, clock speeds and settings, Nothing works.

 

Its the engine m8! Prove me wrong, get in a big ilum battle and post a video.

Edited February 29, 2012 by DigitalPrime

[ironwillaa]

So I recently upgraded my hardware to a very high-end system and I can report 20v20 fights on Ilum I never drop below 25 FPS. Now, it's not the 60 FPS that you claim to desire but its a lot smoother than the YouTube video a person earlier in the thread linked to of their performance.

 

For that guy: don't run real-time anti-virus while playing a game, thought everyone knew that. Real-time scans interfere with loading game files from the disk (it it has to scan them before it lets them be accessed).

 

My specs (and yes this is an expensive machine and SWTOR should run better than it does - I agree it is a poorly written engine and i'll explain why later in this post):

Core i7 2700K overclocked to 4.6GHZ

16 GB DDR3 2133mhz ram

EVGA GTX 580 Superclocked

Intel 520 Cherrydale 240GB SSD Drive (star wars and windows 7 are on this drive)

 

I run in 1920x1080 resolution on a 27" monitor, I do have v-sync turned on so i'll never get more than 60 FPS anyway (it tries for 60 stable FPS to stop screen-tearing).

 

Reasons why many of you may have issues: the graphics card does NOT matter for SWTOR hardly at all. This engine is ENTIRELY reliant on CPU and multiple cores. It was written heavily heavily threaded and is the ONLY game i've ever seen in the current market (especially MMOs) that *requires* at least a dual-core processor in its minimum specs. If you want better performance, you need a Core i5 or Core i7 (or equivalent 4 or 6-core AMD).

 

25-30FPS is about the most you can hope for from larger open world Ilum PVP fights and even then you may get hit with server latency in that area that isn't the fault of your hardware but is the server lagging due to # of requests in that particular zone.

[tyranusdarec]

Personally I get about 30 fps steady. I dont see all the hoopla from some people wanting 60 fps. Why? Most "visually appealing" games lock down to 30 fps anyway. So why is it MMO players want 60 fps? Half the people wouldnt even know the difference unless that little number is ticking 60 anyway.

 

I am a projectionist. The movie Avatar was shot at 60 fps. Yet what most people didnt know.... Most print theaters showed the movie at 24 fps. Most digital theaters showed it at 36 fps. We had it on four screens the first week. Two were digital and two were film because that theater only had 2 digital projectors. Not one time did we have someone come out complaining the movie was too low fps. In fact we had alot of people coming out talking about how amazing it was at 60 fps. "You can really see the smooth flow" and "Its so much clearer". A couple of them were very surprised when I told them it was still just the 24 or 36 fps screen. One poor soul wouldnt believe me for the world. I was the one who put the print together when it came to the theater. I knew how many frames it was. But he just wouldnt believe me. "No that was 60 fps. You dont know what your talking about."

 

So for me I am more then happy with TOR at 30 fps.

 

Tyr

[DigitalPrime]

Personally I get about 30 fps steady. I dont see all the hoopla from some people wanting 60 fps. Why? Most "visually appealing" games lock down to 30 fps anyway. So why is it MMO players want 60 fps? Half the people wouldnt even know the difference unless that little number is ticking 60 anyway.

 

I am a projectionist. The movie Avatar was shot at 60 fps. Yet what most people didnt know.... Most print theaters showed the movie at 24 fps. Most digital theaters showed it at 36 fps. We had it on four screens the first week. Two were digital and two were film because that theater only had 2 digital projectors. Not one time did we have someone come out complaining the movie was too low fps. In fact we had alot of people coming out talking about how amazing it was at 60 fps. "You can really see the smooth flow" and "Its so much clearer". A couple of them were very surprised when I told them it was still just the 24 or 36 fps screen. One poor soul wouldnt believe me for the world. I was the one who put the print together when it came to the theater. I knew how many frames it was. But he just wouldnt believe me. "No that was 60 fps. You dont know what your talking about."

 

 

 

 

This is about a planet which sells world PVP which cant do this due to the poorly optimised engine.

This is not a FPS loving thread, this is about a gaming engine which is not working as intended. When we can have massive open world battles on a planet created for such events. It should work. PVPing when you have laggy choppy framerates is not gonna pull in new subs as then it becomes an awful exprerience.

 

 

Gaming and movies are two completely different entities. Gaming, you control and feel the framerates. Movies you just watch! A big difference!

Edited February 29, 2012 by DigitalPrime

[harkinsteven]

Most "visually appealing" games lock down to 30 fps anyway

Sorry dude but your talking out your *** there. On consoles they are locked to 30 basically due to the old hardware, but pcs are NOT locked to 30fps. That is just absolute rubbish your talking. The only way it would be locked to 30fps on a pc is if someone had a crappy TV as a screen and could only produce 30hz and they have vsync enabled.

PC users want 60fps because we pay alot of money for our systems and expect excellent visuals and performance and 60fps+ provides the smoothest gameplay.

[TheOnlyKyrenS]

It's both.

[tyranusdarec]

This is about a planet which sells world PVP which cant do this due to the poorly optimised engine.

This is not a FPS loving thread, this is about a gaming engine which is not working as intended. When we can have massive open world battles on a planet created for such events. It should work. PVPing when you have laggy choppy framerates is not gonna pull in new subs as then it becomes an awful exprerience.

 

 

Gaming and movies are two completely different entities. Gaming, you control and feel the framerates. Movies you just watch! A big difference!

 

No... People are clearly complaining about not getting 60 fps. This is the whole argument. And I dont get it. I am happy with 30 fps. So again since you missed the whole question. Why all the hoopla about getting 60 fps when alot of them wouldnt even know the difference unless the little ticker told them?

 

Tyr

[wifeaggro]

All im asking for is PROOF that you people saying "oh well i dont have any performance issues, get better hardware" I want you to go to Ilum and make a video of a 20v20 fight and make sure you have ur FPS showing, I guarantee NOT one person can run over 60 FPS, NOT one. This engine that BW is running DOES need work, stop blaming performance issues on there hardware.

 

I only made this thread because someone made a post about how BWs engine needs work, and everyone flamed the guy saying "they have no problems and the OP needs to fix his hardware

 

Again I want to see a reply with a 10v10 or more Ilum battle with 60+ FPS...... Prove us wrong.

 

Ive a monster system.

990X OC 4.2 liquid cooled

590 gtx 3.0 gig dual GPU

8 gigs ram

win 7 x64

 

I can stand on the fleet with 40 people doing nothing but standing there and have 20 to 30 FPS at best. this game renders absloutley horrible from fauna to PC's its absloutley horrible. It is the reason why they did not put High res textures back in the game from beta . PVP battles are a absloute stutter fest and the people claiming they get high FPS probably have every single grpahical feature turned off including name plates . AOC devolped in 2008 with high res textures full DX10 features can handle massive pvp seiges with destructible enviroments and full spell effects in the high 60's on this rig. its not an issue of hardware its an issue of coding and optimizing. you will never get an offical word from Bioware on this they already tried to lie about the high res pacs they will never address FPS issues openly in the forums.

[DigitalPrime]

No... People are clearly complaining about not getting 60 fps. This is the whole argument. And I dont get it. I am happy with 30 fps. So again since you missed the whole question. Why all the hoopla about getting 60 fps when alot of them wouldnt even know the difference unless the little ticker told them?

 

Tyr

 

Maybe try reading the threads and you will see these posts are about a poorly optimised gaming engine. Simple Not movies or what not!

 

Not sure if your a console troll or someone who doesnt have any idea about PC gaming.

Anyway, its obvious you are clueless so ill leave it that!

[Cygnusxo]

Personally I get about 30 fps steady. I dont see all the hoopla from some people wanting 60 fps. Why? Most "visually appealing" games lock down to 30 fps anyway. So why is it MMO players want 60 fps? Half the people wouldnt even know the difference unless that little number is ticking 60 anyway.

 

I am a projectionist. The movie Avatar was shot at 60 fps. Yet what most people didnt know.... Most print theaters showed the movie at 24 fps. Most digital theaters showed it at 36 fps. We had it on four screens the first week. Two were digital and two were film because that theater only had 2 digital projectors. Not one time did we have someone come out complaining the movie was too low fps. In fact we had alot of people coming out talking about how amazing it was at 60 fps. "You can really see the smooth flow" and "Its so much clearer". A couple of them were very surprised when I told them it was still just the 24 or 36 fps screen. One poor soul wouldnt believe me for the world. I was the one who put the print together when it came to the theater. I knew how many frames it was. But he just wouldnt believe me. "No that was 60 fps. You dont know what your talking about."

 

So for me I am more then happy with TOR at 30 fps.

 

Tyr

 

That was my tough too.. but after some research i was wrong !!!

 

http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_can_humans_see.htm

 

this site explain the difference between movies and games FPS.

 

In resume, games need a lot more FPS for our eyes to see it fluid because the graphics are a lot more detailed than a movies where there is a lot of blur effects

[tyranusdarec]

Sorry dude but your talking out your *** there. On consoles they are locked to 30 basically due to the old hardware, but pcs are NOT locked to 30fps. That is just absolute rubbish your talking. The only way it would be locked to 30fps on a pc is if someone had a crappy TV as a screen and could only produce 30hz and they have vsync enabled.

PC users want 60fps because we pay alot of money for our systems and expect excellent visuals and performance and 60fps+ provides the smoothest gameplay.

 

Talking out of my..... Whoa dude. I am so freaking sorry. I should have said consoles. I forgot to add "on consoles". Dear god its the end of the dang world. Call the police and have me arrested! I forgot I am talking to lowest common denominator on here. I will remember that next time I post. "Some people on here are the lowest common denominator." There. I wrote it down and stickied it to my monitor so I wont ever forget again. May I please continue now? Is that ok with you Mr. Exact?

 

But hey thanks for proving me right. Yes "visually appealing" games lock down at 30 fps.... on consoles. So it wasnt rubbish now was it. Least we know how you think now right?

 

Next time dont be a jack wagon.

 

Tyr

[Vulgarr]

Personally I get about 30 fps steady. I dont see all the hoopla from some people wanting 60 fps. Why? Most "visually appealing" games lock down to 30 fps anyway. So why is it MMO players want 60 fps? Half the people wouldnt even know the difference unless that little number is ticking 60 anyway.

 

I am a projectionist. The movie Avatar was shot at 60 fps. Yet what most people didnt know.... Most print theaters showed the movie at 24 fps. Most digital theaters showed it at 36 fps. We had it on four screens the first week. Two were digital and two were film because that theater only had 2 digital projectors. Not one time did we have someone come out complaining the movie was too low fps. In fact we had alot of people coming out talking about how amazing it was at 60 fps. "You can really see the smooth flow" and "Its so much clearer". A couple of them were very surprised when I told them it was still just the 24 or 36 fps screen. One poor soul wouldnt believe me for the world. I was the one who put the print together when it came to the theater. I knew how many frames it was. But he just wouldnt believe me. "No that was 60 fps. You dont know what your talking about."

 

So for me I am more then happy with TOR at 30 fps.

 

Tyr

cool.

 

are you from the future?

 

because he shot avatar 1 at 24fps.

 

he is planning on shooting 2 and 3 at either 48 or 60 because he wants better 3D

 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/31/avatar_fps/

[DigitalPrime]

cool.

 

are you from the future?

 

because he shot avatar 1 at 24fps.

 

he is planning on shooting 2 and 3 at either 48 or 60 because he wants better 3D

 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/31/avatar_fps/

 

WINNING as charlie would say!

Edited February 29, 2012 by DigitalPrime

[Vulgarr]

No... People are clearly complaining about not getting 60 fps. This is the whole argument. And I dont get it. I am happy with 30 fps. So again since you missed the whole question. Why all the hoopla about getting 60 fps when alot of them wouldnt even know the difference unless the little ticker told them?

 

Tyr

i can gaurantee on ilum on high pop server at peak hours with over 100 people in the zone you are not getting 30fps.

 

10 maybe.

 

the human eye cant detect more than 24fps in video/movies, thats why all video/movies are shot at 24fps or shot at a higher framerate but shown or transmitted at 24fps. (except for 3d)

 

but videogames most people can. it appears slower and less fluid and causes many people to suffer motion sickness.

[islander]

All im asking for is PROOF that you people saying "oh well i dont have any performance issues, get better hardware" I want you to go to Ilum and make a video of a 20v20 fight and make sure you have ur FPS showing, I guarantee NOT one person can run over 60 FPS, NOT one. This engine that BW is running DOES need work, stop blaming performance issues on there hardware.

 

I only made this thread because someone made a post about how BWs engine needs work, and everyone flamed the guy saying "they have no problems and the OP needs to fix his hardware

 

Again I want to see a reply with a 10v10 or more Ilum battle with 60+ FPS...... Prove us wrong.

 

I'll try and remember doing this....but I have a question?

 

Since when did you need 60 FPS to PvP adequately?

I've got a new system built 10 weeks ago, and I was (last week) on a screen with about 50 others and had only minor performance latency.

 

Personally, I wish it happened more often, I like Ilum. I might not with an inferior machine though.

Edited February 29, 2012 by islander

[tyranusdarec]

Maybe try reading the threads and you will see these posts are about a poorly optimised gaming engine. Simple Not movies or what not!

 

Not sure if your a console troll or someone who doesnt have any idea about PC gaming.

Anyway, its obvious you are clueless so ill leave it that!

 

Dont know about PC gaming? Well lets see... Started playing PC games back in the 80s. Online gaming started with Kali Doom. Built my first computer in 1996. Built every computer I have owned since. Played on low end and high end systems. Was playing UT on a system well below specs and getting decent framerates. How? Because I know how to tweak.

 

Current system is AMD Phenom x6 3.3ghz, Radeon HD 6970 2gb, PNY 8gb Ram, Barracuda 2tb HDD, and a SSD 120gb. Oh and its dual booting Ubuntu and Win7. Built it myself around a year ago. Even set up a ram drive on it. Fastest hunk of junk this side of the galaxy.... LOL joke.

 

So yes I know something about PC gaming. I aint a guru but I know a little. As for consoles. I do own one. But no I dont want TOR on consoles or anything. I have it so my daughter and I can play disney and lego games together.

 

Tyr

[Invictos]

No... People are clearly complaining about not getting 60 fps. This is the whole argument. And I dont get it. I am happy with 30 fps. So again since you missed the whole question. Why all the hoopla about getting 60 fps when alot of them wouldnt even know the difference unless the little ticker told them?

 

Tyr

 

No, people with extremely high-end systems may be complaining about not reaching 60 FPS -- and they're probably justified in that complaint. The more important issue, though, is the way the game (apparently) handles calls to the disk/server. Whether you're experiencing a drop from 100+ FPS down to 30, or whether you're experiencing a drop from 40 FPS down to 8, the problem appears to be the same.

 

You're certainly welcome to your opinion that 24 FPS is the standard, but you're fixated on the wrong part of the argument. This thread isn't (and many, many other threads aren't) about anyone's subjective performance preferences. This thread is about a technical issue that may or may not bother you, but seems to affect everyone to a greater or lesser degree.

 

Or at least, that's my theory until I see just one of the I'm-happy-with-my-performance people posts evidence of what his performance actually is.

[tyranusdarec]

cool.

 

are you from the future?

 

because he shot avatar 1 at 24fps.

 

he is planning on shooting 2 and 3 at either 48 or 60 because he wants better 3D

 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/31/avatar_fps/

 

Well your right. My bad there.But we had people coming into the release saying it was 60 fps because it was digital 3D. More funny on us I suppose because we were laughing behind their backs. Next time dont listen to the customers.

 

But they were still coming out of the theater proclaiming how much more amazing it was at the higher framerate. Still proves my point. Most people wouldnt know 60 fps unless a little number gauge told them such.

 

Tyr

Edited February 29, 2012 by tyranusdarec

[Vulgarr]

 

But they were still coming out of the theater proclaiming how much more amazing it was at the higher framerate. Still proves my point. Most people wouldnt know 60 fps unless a little number gauge told them such.

 

Tyr

i think this is actually proving the OP point also.

 

most people think they are getting good framerates, without checking the little number gauge and coming to this forum and claiming everythings fine, when those of us that can see the difference and only use the little gauge when we know somethings not right are trying to get bioware to fix the issue.

 

but on ilum everyone should be able to see how bad it is. 10fps. like the video someone posted earlier thinking it was "good" frame rates, but is clearly 10fps. no counter needed to see that.

[Syylara]

See my response in http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=329526&page=61

 

Send a DXdiag, you should not be showing the issues you have. What driver version? You should not have issues with other games at high settings either.

 

My point is that in no other game do I have issues that would cause me to need to generate a DxDiag and start hunting for issues to begin with. Drivers are up to date.

 

SSD/RAID setup has no impact on real-time issues like freezing on jumping as we're talking memory resident here, if you need disk IO you wouldn't be running this game at all. Your motherboard spec might be relevant but doubtful.

 

No, not every little bit of the game is resident in memory at all times, there's plenty of disk usage taking place during gameplay. The "press jump and open your inventory at the same time" issue is probably indicating some issue with server-client communications and an oddity in that causing the rendering process to halt for some (as yet) inexplicable reason.

 

Use process explorer or a similar program to profile the game's memory and cpu usage. Note that you want to be IN the game for this and log it to review afterward. Tabbing out of a 3D application will usually mean it no longer has a hold on the resources and you will not be seeing it's normal behaviour.

 

I open the task manager to the performance page and then tab back in. I'm well aware of how useless it is to measure processor load when a visually intensive process is minimized.

 

It is starting to seem like you think I have no clue what I'm doing, which is rather condescending.

 

In your particular case I suspect it's either a very aggressive AV, GPU and driver combo or a combination of multiple/all of the above. Under no conditions should you be freezing up, unless maybe on 40 people Ilum on max settings (I too notice some drop in FPS there).

 

I know it shouldn't be freezing up!

 

That's the entire freaking point!!!

[BigOso]

[quote=kisharrr;3157579

You have a flawed understanding of where the burden of proof rests. You are the one with the claim (that the engine is poorly optimized, that BW is lying, that meteor showers are causing Ilum pvp to be slow). Thus, you have the burden of proof.

 

This...

 

if you can proove that its totally the engine, then maybe we can start something....

Edited February 29, 2012 by BigOso

[Anathar]

i know there are a few things happening in this game that can, will, and do cause fps drops regardless of the PC playing it.

 

--i notice quite a bit of z-fighting pretty much everywhere i go in the game.

 

--gaps in terrain possibly allowing memory leaks.

 

--there may be an over-abundance of animated shaders in some areas. that will drag the most well made PC down.

 

 

they should have used a different engine for this game. that much is certain.

[Tsukimara]

This...

 

if you can proove that its totally the engine, then maybe we can start something....

 

Oh you mean like how my post did?