Performance issues linked to BW's Engine or Customers "Low end Pcs"

[ihyln]

They do not, in fact, run just fine on all systems with the power that suggests they should. No game does.

 

You speak in absolute terms which leads me to believe you are some BW troll... so you are dismissed.

[Inarai]

You speak in absolute terms which leads me to believe you are some BW troll... so you are dismissed.

 

It's actually an absolute fact of software, similar to "all non-trivial software shall have bugs forever".

 

The state of "perfectly optimized for all machines" is impossible for any reasonably complex software - and games are HIGHLY complex pieces of software. That said, different engines work at different levels of abstraction, which can have an impact on how prevalent an issue is - this carries a general performance cost, however..

[Roechacca]

Here's the solution folks

 

Optimism your PC as best you can on your budget

 

Report bugs and issues always

 

 

Accept these debates will last forever

 

Rinse

 

&

 

Repeat till desired results are reached.

[Inarai]

Here's the solution folks

 

Optimism your PC as best you can on your budget

 

Report bugs and issues always

 

 

Accept these debates will last forever

 

Rinse

 

&

 

Repeat ad infinitum

 

Fixed?

[PostalTwinkie]

Here's the solution folks

 

Optimism your PC as best you can on your budget

 

Report bugs and issues always

 

 

Accept these debates will last forever

 

Rinse

 

&

 

Repeat till desired results are reached.

 

Most people will actually do this...

1. Buy Product and install
    
   
2. Subscribe to product
    
   
3. Play product, notice performance is an issue
    
   
4. Compare product to it's competitors available
    
   
5. Note competition doesn't have the same issue
    
   
6. Cancel subscription and move on, instead of fussing with the broken product
   

[ihyln]

It's actually an absolute fact of software, similar to "all non-trivial software shall have bugs forever".

 

The state of "perfectly optimized for all machines" is impossible for any reasonably complex software - and games are HIGHLY complex pieces of software. That said, different engines work at different levels of abstraction, which can have an impact on how prevalent an issue is - this carries a general performance cost, however..

 

Uh this isn't 1995 where companies didn't have an easy API like DirectX. Even though most used OpenGL at the time and throughout the years many successful companies (like id software and unreal engine come to mind) raised the benchmark on limits of PC performance. So there you have at least two examples of bona fide game engines in use in probably hundreds of games where they played properly and now you are telling us it's 2012 and all the driver programmers became dumb and the poor Hero engine performance is to be accepted?

 

 

L O L

 

Please continue googling your answers and apologizing for BW's crappy engine because this is highly entertaining.

Edited February 29, 2012 by ihyln

[Roechacca]

Most people will actually do this...

1. Buy Product and install
    
   
2. Subscribe to product
    
   
3. Play product, notice performance is an issue
    
   
4. Compare product to it's competitors available
    
   
5. Note competition doesn't have the same issue
    
   
6. Cancel subscription and move on, instead of fussing with the broken product
   

 

sure you can do that too. that's your right as a consumer.

[PostalTwinkie]

sure you can do that too. that's your right as a consumer.

 

I opted for this....

 

Here's the solution folks

 

Report bugs and issues always

 

 

Accept these debates will last forever

 

Rinse

 

&

 

***** about it, because BioWare lets me.

[Roechacca]

Like I said earlier, I'm a Star Wars Fanboi. I'll stick around here and do my best to help improve the game in what ever way I can to help support what I enjoy. For those that want to leave, may the force be with you N stuff. I hope you find the game that makes your day too. I think we all can agree fried chicken is delicious...no?

[PostalTwinkie]

Like I said earlier, I'm a Star Wars Fanboi. I'll stick around here and do my best to help improve the game in what ever way I can to help support what I enjoy. For those that want to leave, may the force be with you N stuff. I hope you find the game that makes your day too. I think we all can agree fried chicken is delicious...no?

 

I don't plan on going anywhere either, I will just ***** on occasion, and I love fried chicken!

[owenthorn]

you do know this is the first game released on the hero engine, right??

[LogicalPremise]

Setting aside issues of "where the problem is", "what defines engine issues", or "fanboying"...

 

The OP asked for anyone to provide him with a video backing up what he states Bioware has stated as fact: that the primary driver of bad FPS issues is on the client side.

 

So:

 

1) Did Bioware state that the primary or only issue with low FPS is due to the user and not their engine?

 

2) If so, can anyone show FPS of 60+ or even 40+ on a large fight in Ilum?

 

3) If they cannot, can one show FPS of 50+ , 40+ etc on an EQUALLY number of people in the game elsewhere, say, a fleet?

 

 

Narrowing down exactly what and where FPS drops occur and by what range on what machines across a cross section of servers and times eliminates statistical bias to some degree (aside from that incurred by the fact that only a certain type of person uses forums or responds to posts anyway).

 

If zero people can demonstrate high FPS except in areas berift of a high number of PC's then there would seem to be a system side issue.

 

Given that so-called "fanboys" would seem to have the largest stake in shutting up haters, I'm surprised no one has posted video yet. Unless, of course, the problem is really server side.

[Roechacca]

Setting aside issues of "where the problem is", "what defines engine issues", or "fanboying"...

 

The OP asked for anyone to provide him with a video backing up what he states Bioware has stated as fact: that the primary driver of bad FPS issues is on the client side.

 

So:

 

1) Did Bioware state that the primary or only issue with low FPS is due to the user and not their engine?

 

2) If so, can anyone show FPS of 60+ or even 40+ on a large fight in Ilum?

 

3) If they cannot, can one show FPS of 50+ , 40+ etc on an EQUALLY number of people in the game elsewhere, say, a fleet?

 

 

Narrowing down exactly what and where FPS drops occur and by what range on what machines across a cross section of servers and times eliminates statistical bias to some degree (aside from that incurred by the fact that only a certain type of person uses forums or responds to posts anyway).

 

If zero people can demonstrate high FPS except in areas berift of a high number of PC's then there would seem to be a system side issue.

 

Given that so-called "fanboys" would seem to have the largest stake in shutting up haters, I'm surprised no one has posted video yet. Unless, of course, the problem is really server side.

 

I don't want to shut up anyone. If not for the "haters" nothing positive would result. Let your disappoint N hate flow noble poster. I look forward to progress as much as anyone.

[dnomz]

Why even open a topic and question what it is? We all know it's the crappy engine.

 

And of course Bioware won't admit that, cause they will cut themselves like that.

 

I've done my research. If you want 70 FPS in 25 vs 25 Ilum you need a 6000 dollar PC with double GPU and double CPU (yes, it exists).

[Pink_Saber]

I only made this thread because someone made a post about how BWs engine needs work, and everyone flamed the guy saying "they have no problems and the OP needs to fix his hardware

 

Link or I don't buy it. You're either leaving out the important parts, or it didn't happen.

 

If you're saying it's flaming to say you have no issues, well, some people really don't. No need to get all worked up over that.

 

But anyway, it's not like it's news that the engine needs some love. I have a hard time believing anyone would ever get flamed just for saying that.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Pink_Saber

[LordAsuryan]

Hello one and all.

 

First of all, I would like to express my gratitude and thanks to the rational approach you took Afflictionz with regard's this matter, and irrelevant of the Trolling, and people using "logic" posts, you understood the point at hand.

 

For those people who have Troll'd and acted in such a manner which is un-productive, unfortunately that's to be expected from online.

 

Myself - I am a Valor Rank 68 on Luke Sene - Sith Sorcerer.

 

I'm suffering the same issue, and find that Illum and the game generally cannot handle huge player interaction.

 

My Engine can run this game way higher than its "standard" specifications, and could run BF3, Dawn of War II, and several other games on closest to highest specs possible, or at its very highest. Effectively in theory, I should be able to run this game 2/3 times over on one rig, if we follow its required specifications, and have a connection to pretty much allow 3/4 people to play here also without any lag / latency issue's. Considering I have a 50mb Virgin Broadband connection as well, this can't really be a connection issue either.

 

If this game is a "You must have 8gig+ of ram, and a machine which costs 2k+ on the market to get no issue's" then surely something is wrong, because the graphics aren't even that great in the game anyway.

 

When a massive battle in Illum occurs, I have to drop all graphics to ultra low, and If I am lucky i'll be getting 20fps.

 

This is exactly the same sort of "media talk" Bioware will throw out like they did with the game randomly crashing, and saying "only a few people suffer this issue" then they found out it was in a thousands, so they tried to squash it and calm it down in the Media Eye.

 

Which is what of course they are doing now.

 

As to the proof about the 20vs20's on Illum, I have personally seen around 50vs50 (On Luke Sene).

 

By that point, the game is pretty much not worth playing, which is why most people don't wish to pvp on mass like that in Illum, as the game stops being fun, due to it becoming a "Microsoft word Power Point Presentation" as we regularly call it.

 

This wouldn't be the only MMORPG to suffer these issue's also, look at Vangard.

Edited February 29, 2012 by LordAsuryan

[Syylara]

Part of the issue is that Bioware never said it had anything to do with machines not being powerful enough, simply that it had to do with specific machines - but people with a poor understanding of how this stuff works don't understand that system power isn't the only thing at play insofar as system-side contribution to performance issues are concerned.

 

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-01-10-bioware-most-people-arent-having-swtor-performance-issues

 

"However, we know that it's important that there is a smaller group of people usually with lower end machines that are having problems in some areas. And one of the most important things for us to grow our service is to continue to bring in more players, including those players who only have low-end machines."

[owenthorn]

if by low end machines, they mean people who meet the minimum specs, they need to change their specs for this game then, there are people who have top end specs and have problems

[Roechacca]

if by low end machines, they mean people who meet the minimum specs, they need to change their specs for this game then, there are people who have top end specs and have problems

 

truth ^^^

[ProphetX]

I just recently built a new machine ( 6 core amd fx 6100 , 8 gigs of ram , 2 TB hd , radeon 6770 hd ) , I don't have an ultimate gaming rig , but I built it myself for $700 and its like playing a new game . I do think the vast majority of the problem lies with bad machines . I didn't realize how much of a difference upgrading made for playing this but things I had chalked up to bugs , graphics issues , fps issues , have all but vanished . Edited February 29, 2012 by ProphetX

[terminova]

Setting aside issues of "where the problem is", "what defines engine issues", or "fanboying"...

 

The OP asked for anyone to provide him with a video backing up what he states Bioware has stated as fact: that the primary driver of bad FPS issues is on the client side.

 

So:

 

1) Did Bioware state that the primary or only issue with low FPS is due to the user and not their engine?

 

2) If so, can anyone show FPS of 60+ or even 40+ on a large fight in Ilum?

 

3) If they cannot, can one show FPS of 50+ , 40+ etc on an EQUALLY number of people in the game elsewhere, say, a fleet?

 

 

Narrowing down exactly what and where FPS drops occur and by what range on what machines across a cross section of servers and times eliminates statistical bias to some degree (aside from that incurred by the fact that only a certain type of person uses forums or responds to posts anyway).

 

If zero people can demonstrate high FPS except in areas berift of a high number of PC's then there would seem to be a system side issue.

 

Given that so-called "fanboys" would seem to have the largest stake in shutting up haters, I'm surprised no one has posted video yet. Unless, of course, the problem is really server side.

 

I think those that can are actually playing the game and not posting on the forums.

[Skoobie]

Ok, I take that challenge. Here is your proof that HeroEngine is not optimized.....

 

http://www.heroengine.com/2011/11/heroengine-meets-starwars/#comments

 

Read the section that says "I Need This......"

 

Here is an excerpt: “It’s not productized yet,” we told Gordon. “There are whole sections of code that is only roughed in and not optimized for performance or security. And there are very few comments and very little documentation.”

 

That is the COO of Simutronics, Neil Harris.

 

You are not going to tell me that BioWare took a product that was not finished, optimized, or ready for production, and finished building it for use. In fact there is another section that Neil even says based off what they have seen there is very little left of HeroEngine.

 

That's not proof that the engine isn't optimized now. That's proof it wasn't finished then....2004? 2005?

 

You left out the very next part:

 

"He didn’t care. “We are going to have tons of engineers. We can finish it ourselves. We’re going to want to modify your source code for our special project anyway.” "

 

So it's interesting to see you say: "You are not going to tell me that BioWare took a product that was not finished, optimized, or ready for production, and finished building it for use."

 

...when the very next part of what you quoted says exactly that.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Skoobie

[jimmyquinella]

I have more money than like 14 people on this earth.

 

 

My computer spec is pretty much not available to the general public.

 

(Think WOPR from Wargames, and you have the idea)

 

And even I get diminished fps in Ilum with 20+ fight.

 

The rest of this talk is just filler.

[GnatB]

I find much of this thread funny.

 

Low frame rate doesn't mean bad engine optimization. It can simply mean that it's trying to do too much. Maybe the low LOD models aren't low enough LOD so it's still trying to push too many polygons. Maybe the artists aren't very efficient in their use of polygons so the models take up way more polygons than they need for the level of graphic fidelity. Tons of things that could be causing the problem other than "engine optimization".

 

That being said... looking at that initial movie... nothing struck me as particularly bad about it until I actually paid attention to the frame rate in the corner... which was consistently single digits. I guess I'm just not particularly susceptible to problems with low frame rate. It looked perfectly fine to me.

[AKfourtyseven]

I just recently built a new machine ( 6 core amd fx 6100 , 8 gigs of ram , 2 TB hd , radeon 6770 hd ) , I don't have an ultimate gaming rig , but I built it myself for $700 and its like playing a new game . I do think the vast majority of the problem lies with bad machines . I didn't realize how much of a difference upgrading made for playing this but things I had chalked up to bugs , graphics issues , fps issues , have all but vanished .

 

As somebody who got a new rig after the game came out, there is definitely an issue with the specs the game claims are minimum not actually being what is required to not have almost unplayable lag in PvP.

 

I have never had PvP become unplayable for me, but i did take up the challenge in this post and checked my fps in a battle that was around 30v30 and i couldnt break 45 fps. How much of a test this is, im not sure because im not running the game at stock settings, i use nvidia inspector to crank things up so it doesnt look like a N64 game.