Inarai Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=329526. Read the first quote, thanks! Which doesn't say what you think it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 (edited) meh, just stop it you two. Your both right on different levels. The coding issues will effect different operating systems differently and the game needs improvements. end story. Some of it might not even be coding "issues". It's just a fact that correct code can have different behaviour on different systems - for example, if a graphics card manufacturer deviates from the specifications of the card type in terms of, say, memory access this can cause issues. Normally, abstraction gets you around this, but engine code is by necessity very low level (that is, closer to the hardware) - which is where that can present more problems. An interaction effect CANNOT be accurately summed up as "coding issues" - it is far more complex than that. Edited February 29, 2012 by Inarai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afflictionz Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 Which doesn't say what you think it does. Lol ok, what's it mean then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roechacca Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Some of it might not even be coding "issues". It's just a fact that correct code can have different behaviour on different systems - for example, if a graphics card manufacturer deviates from the specifications of the card type in terms of, say, memory access this can cause issues. Normally, abstraction gets you around this, but engine code is by necessity very low level (that is, closer to the hardware) - which is where that can present more problems. exactly. none the less better code can be implemented in the future to address these system language issues as they are exposed to the Dev team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afflictionz Posted February 29, 2012 Author Share Posted February 29, 2012 Some of it might not even be coding "issues". It's just a fact that correct code can have different behaviour on different systems - for example, if a graphics card manufacturer deviates from the specifications of the card type in terms of, say, memory access this can cause issues. Normally, abstraction gets you around this, but engine code is by necessity very low level (that is, closer to the hardware) - which is where that can present more problems. An interaction effect CANNOT be accurately summed up as "coding issues" - it is far more complex than that. THIS is exactly why I made this, I asked if ANYONE was getting great FPS when there is a big group of people fight? ANYONE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PostalTwinkie Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 (edited) The Negative Proof Fallacy You have a flawed understanding of where the burden of proof rests. You are the one with the claim (that the engine is poorly optimized, that BW is lying, that meteor showers are causing Ilum pvp to be slow). Thus, you have the burden of proof. Ok, I take that challenge. Here is your proof that HeroEngine is not optimized..... http://www.heroengine.com/2011/11/heroengine-meets-starwars/#comments Read the section that says "I Need This......" Here is an excerpt: “It’s not productized yet,” we told Gordon. “There are whole sections of code that is only roughed in and not optimized for performance or security. And there are very few comments and very little documentation.” That is the COO of Simutronics, Neil Harris. You are not going to tell me that BioWare took a product that was not finished, optimized, or ready for production, and finished building it for use. In fact there is another section that Neil even says based off what they have seen there is very little left of HeroEngine. Edited February 29, 2012 by PostalTwinkie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kourage Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 I recall reading a review where the writer wished they had enabled high re textures because his machine ran the game flawlessly. With my Core Duo 2.2GHz processor, I would obviously have a slow down in a large PvP fight. I haven't see any yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Ok, I take that challenge. Here is your proof that HeroEngine is not optimized..... http://www.heroengine.com/2011/11/heroengine-meets-starwars/#comments Read the section that says "I Need This......" Here is an excerpt: “It’s not productized yet,” we told Gordon. “There are whole sections of code that is only roughed in and not optimized for performance or security. And there are very few comments and very little documentation.” That is the COO of Simutronics, Neil Harris. They also don't use something that can continue to be called the Hero Engine. And with purchased engines, it's standard practice to make whatever changes/additions you need to. Just because it's not in the offering doesn't mean it can't be added by the developer purchasing the licence. "It's not productized" means "you're gonna have to handle it yourself". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxiO Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 THIS is exactly why I made this, I asked if ANYONE was getting great FPS when there is a big group of people fight? ANYONE At peak (for an hour after reset) we have roughly 40 vs 40 on Ilum, with a regular 10 or more people from our guild (often many more). Some have older PCs, a few have slightly newer PCs, and the rest of us can run BF3 and other modern games at >100FPS. Not one of us gets more than 20-30 FPS in Ilum at peak times, and usually it's closer to single figures. For those of you who would have us believe that the problem is client-side, explain how, out of a sample of 20 or so guildies, not one has reported good performance in Ilum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 At peak (for an hour after reset) we have roughly 40 vs 40 on Ilum, with a regular 10 or more people from our guild (often many more). Some have older PCs, a few have slightly newer PCs, and the rest of us can run BF3 and other modern games at >100FPS. Not one of us gets more than 20-30 FPS in Ilum at peak times, and usually it's closer to single figures. For those of you who would have us believe that the problem is client-side, explain how, out of a sample of 20 or so guildies, not one has reported good performance in Ilum? Sample of 20 connected people? Never taken a stats course, have you... In any case, it's not that it's client-side per se... But it's also not code/server side per se. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roechacca Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Sample of 20 connected people? Never taken a stats course, have you... In any case, it's not that it's client-side per se... But it's also not code/server side per se. you're speculating. it could be both. without access to BW server diagnostics you can't determine this info to be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PostalTwinkie Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 They also don't use something that can continue to be called the Hero Engine. And with purchased engines, it's standard practice to make whatever changes/additions you need to. Just because it's not in the offering doesn't mean it can't be added by the developer purchasing the licence. "It's not productized" means "you're gonna have to handle it yourself". It is standard practice for a company to purchase the license for an engine that is complete, and then customize it to their needs. Not to take what amounts to a beta product and then customize it. It is just that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 you're speculating. it could be both. without access to BW server diagnostics you can't determine this info to be true. More taking the fact that they've actually SAID AS MUCH, and that the situation is in fact logically consistent with that statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 (edited) It is standard practice for a company to purchase the license for an engine that is complete, and then customize it to their needs. Not to take what amounts to a beta product and then customize it. It is just that simple. "Completeness" for engines is a pretty weird concept. The more you do for the client before selling it to them, the fewer client's it's actually useful for. A lot of this stuff is left for the client to do in no small part because the correct course of action depends on their specific needs. Also, using the word "simple" when discussing engines? Really? Edited February 29, 2012 by Inarai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihyln Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 I can't post this "proof." Not because my computer can not handle it, but because there is no such think as 20v20 battles on Ilum. I want you to post proof that such a thing exists. lol another BW apologist. Unless you are on an extremely low pop server you have NO EXCUSE not to get over to Ilum right now and see a 15v15 at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kourage Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 The guys who are playing with fantastic FPS and enjoying their time are too busy playing the game to read your request. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roechacca Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Regardless of the speculative reasons as to "why" the game is not optimized, the game is in fact not optimized yet. Hence, this thread. Chicken wing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxiO Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Sample of 20 connected people? Never taken a stats course, have you... In any case, it's not that it's client-side per se... But it's also not code/server side per se. 20 random PCs, built or bought randomly at different places, including some water-cooled, overclocked, top-drawer monsters. If the problem were anything other than the game engine or net-code, STATISTICALLY, I would know ONE person who doesn't suffer from shoddy performance on Ilum. Furthermore, I've grouped with most of the level 50 Imps on our server on Ilum, and most of them are amazed that I'm getting 20 FPS during the mayhem around mid. In two months of Ilum PvP, I have yet to hear from anyone who claims to have no problems. By all means don your stubborn fanboy hat and declare that up = down. In fact, let's all just pretend the game is completely flawless as it is now. You heard us, Devs. You can stop working on TOR and get started on a new project. And FYI, statistically, if 20/20 people have a problem with a product, you can bet your *** that the company who makes said product needs to get their act together. The engine is flawed and requires either fixing or replacing. This is not speculation, it is fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Regardless of the speculative reasons as to "why" the game is not optimized, the game is in fact not optimized yet. Hence, this thread. Chicken wing? I suppose if we're going to a definition of "optimized" that means "perfectly, and for all systems", sure - but then neither is any other game, ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PostalTwinkie Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 "Completeness" for engines is a pretty weird concept. The more you do for the client before selling it to them, the fewer client's it's actually useful for. A lot of this stuff is left for the client to do in no small part because the correct course of action depends on their specific needs. Also, using the word "simple" when discussing engines? Really? The word "simple" isn't referencing a game engine, or the complexity of it, but the practice of purchasing it. If a company isn't going to invest into building their own custom game engine, they wouldn't normally go for a product that isn't optimized for performance or security. This concept doesn't apply to just game engines, but any product that is going to be deployed to a customer base. Anyone that is willing to try and justify or argue, especially in the face of the performance issues, it being ok to do what BioWare did is out of their mind. These performance issues are not just player documented, but documented by major game publications and other professionals within the industry. I can provide those links as well if you would like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihyln Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 (edited) Some of it might not even be coding "issues". It's just a fact that correct code can have different behaviour on different systems - for example, if a graphics card manufacturer deviates from the specifications of the card type in terms of, say, memory access this can cause issues. Normally, abstraction gets you around this, but engine code is by necessity very low level (that is, closer to the hardware) - which is where that can present more problems. An interaction effect CANNOT be accurately summed up as "coding issues" - it is far more complex than that. Which is why the vast majority of other games released in 2011 and 2012 run just fine but Hero engine does not for some reason? If you are stating that this is more complex than what us cretins think (I'm a programmer and not the herp derp VB kind) then a deviation from the norm would be inside the Hero engine not the way billion dollar companies write their drivers that work for the 99.99% of the population. The fact that you try to write this off as some issue with drivers after so many repeated threads is hilarious. And seriously low level memory access as an example? Have you heard of APIs? Edited February 29, 2012 by ihyln Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roechacca Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 I suppose if we're going to a definition of "optimized" that means "perfectly, and for all systems", sure - but then neither is any other game, ever. exactly. We will see these threads for the next decade. it does no one any good to say "it's your pc" or "the game engine sux!" because this is all objective and subjective to opinion, both with factual points of view. Can the game response be improved? Probably. Can you improve your PC's performance? Probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihyln Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 The guys who are playing with fantastic FPS and enjoying their time are too busy playing the game to read your request. Or they unsubbed already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PostalTwinkie Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Which is why the vast majority of other games released in 2011 and 2012 run just fine but Hero engine does not for some reason? If you are stating that this is more complex than what us cretins think (I'm a programmer and not the herp derp VB kind) then a deviation from the norm would be inside the Hero engine not the way billion dollar companies write their drivers that work for the 99.99% of the population. The fact that you try to write this off as some issue with drivers after so many repeated threads is hilarious. And seriously low level memory access as an example? Have you heard of APIs? Dude, it is totally drivers! DUH! It isn't the fact that BioWare originally purchased a pre-production product that wasn't even optimized for security or performance. That still had rough draft coding.... totally the drivers....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inarai Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Which is why the vast majority of other games released in 2011 and 2012 run just fine but Hero engine does not for some reason? They do not, in fact, run just fine on all systems with the power that suggests they should. No game does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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