Knewt Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 So, I was catching up my favorite blogs when I ran across a Penny Arcade interview with Bioware co-founders Dr. Greg Zeschuk and Dr. Ray Muzyka. Here is the article on Penny Arcade. The last paragraph of the article really struck a chord with me. The possibility space, that’s a term that I heard Will Wright say about ten years ago, and it really struck me,” Muzyka continued, pointing out that most Bioware properties could work as MMOs. “When you deliver a game, and you deliver it for a player, you have to capture what they think is the possibility space. You need to let them do everything they think they should do, and you can’t block them from doing anything they think they should be able to do. You have to nail all the features and content that should be in that possibility space.“ He paused for a moment. I was thinking about this and I realized this is the problem I have with TOR as a MMO. It captured my personal possibility space as largely a single player game. I enjoy the stories and the companion RPG flavor. I enjoy the character development through leveling. All said, SWTOR does fulfill my possibility space through Corellia. Unfortunately, that's where the story related progression ends. At the end game, they really failed to capture the potential of my possibility space. There were many things they could have done differently, but the main thing for me was the lack of a competent LFG tool. I'm on the shy side and I don't like sitting in the fleet hoping for a group. I don't need the cross-server style LFG tool that brings almost unending anonymity, but I want something that will make grouping more fluid. So, that's my take. TLDR version, Bioware made a great leveling MMO, but failed to capture my attention at max level. So, what do you think? If Bioware captured your possibility space, what did they do right? If they missed the mark, what did they do wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knewt Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 /bump Maybe somebody this morning wants to discuss this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnapWolf Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I don't want to sound mean, but it's like I've seen this thread somewhere before... Anyway. I'll say it again : If you find the end-content lacking, think about it. The game has only been out for two months. Give it some time to develop proper end-content. Then try again later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metaspark Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I wish I could, but I'm too much of an altoholic to have actually made it to end game Level 30 Sentinel that is shelved until they release server transfers Level 20 Assassin that is leveling through PvP, I will probably run through her class quests on Balmorra today Level 16 Gunslinger that I haven't had much desire to play lately Level 15 Assassin that I am leveling along side my friend, and the reason my level 20 assassin is PvP-focused: this one is doing all the PvE stuff Level 13 Powertech that has been sitting in a cantina on Dromund Kaas since around the tie I got my ship on my Sentinel Level 12 Sage that is doing about 50/50 PvP and PvE Level 11 Juggernaut that I really don't have much desire to play Level 6 Agent that I am very slowly getting through Hutta Level 2 Trooper that has suffered the most neglect, just waiting to get her turn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminova Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I expected to see something with the look and feel of KOTOR. I was not disappointed, and am happy with the result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazednconfuzed Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I was expecting a Star Wars MMO. Instead we got KotOR 3 with a few multiplayer features and chat. I can't say I'm massively disappointed, I did like KotOR, although I do wish they had been a little more innovative, instead of copying WoW's style of gameplay. I also wish (and this is my biggest disappointment with the game) that they had done something decent with space combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellison Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Prepare for flaming and "AAARHH I UNSUBBED 'CUZ ITS NOT AN -EXACT- WoW CLONE AND IS ACTUALLY DOING REMARKABLY WELL GIVEN EA'S RUSHING AND BIOWARE'S INEXPERIENCE" Yeah, I think it did in my book. Room for improvement, no question about that. But I'm not going to abandon BioWare so easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Rezo Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 MMO's need some "little" stuff to keep people playing the game. Some chose housing and somekind of customization of your own house. Others got fishing and some little minigames to play. Lotro had the playing music stuff, which i found very enjoyable (me and two buddys were always playing music for coins on Bree). On SWTOR you dont get anything for doing dailys, what? an epic purple earring or two implants? Its not worth 6 weeks :/... Why would someone be selling and buying stuff to resell and get money? What can you buy? Two mounts? :/ Raiding for a month should get you fully geared, with bad luck you could be more but... you cant keep raiding the same for three months, it gets odd for hardcore players, and casual players have yet completed normals and hard modes. Making alts is ok, but the Legacy system should have been released sooner. I would have liked to be a Miraluka Sith Warrior for main (i would have rolled ANYTHING to get Legacy before doing my main char), but now im so geared and i like my char so much that i wouldnt delete him nor change for another. Space battles are fun for leveling, even fun while you are waiting for a mate to log on and that stuff... but it becomes annoying when you cant get anything from them and you cant do it with friends. There is no grinding with Crew Skills, there is no time sink on that. Plus Crew Skills right now are useless... hope they fix a bit Cybertech and Armstech... people complain about Artifice but the useless actually is Armstech. I find myself with some time free but nothing to do actually, i like be a merchant but the GTN doesnt fit my needs... so i just play with it a little bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meldwyn Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) This game will appeal to some, and disappoint others. No game is liked by all gamers at all times. What is SWTOR's sweet spot? Who is their long term audience, is the fundamental question... The issue that comes up is that most people like to be in the majority, where opinions are concerned. So, fanbois will defend it regardless of what BW does and haters will hate it no matter what BW does. And each will tell the other they are idiots for having the "wrong" opinion on the game. Thus, we have Forum Wars... an exciting new game from BW. Lots of drama, but no leveling, no end game, and yet plenty of repeatable threads! Edited February 28, 2012 by Meldwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dayfax Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 OP, I like your post and I like that you picked p on the "possibility space" concept. I think that's really cool. And now, I'm going to be a little bit snarky because that quote by Dr Ray just pisses me off. "You need to let them do everything they think they should do, and you can’t block them from doing anything they think they should be able to do. You have to nail all the features and content that should be in that possibility space." He paused for a moment. "Except if you PvP. We'll never let those people do jack and or **** in our game." And then he laughed maniacally, and continued to count the large stack of hundred dollar bills on the table in front of him. I think the game is fine for what it is -- a Bioware RPG. But if they were actually aiming for any kind of "possibility space," they failed miserably. Outside of the traditional Bioware roleplaying elements, there's very little imagination in this game. It's so completely rigid and linear in its current incarnation, I'd have an easier time counting the things that are impossible rather than possible. There are some things that can be improved over time, but what concerns me now of how utterly claustrophobic most of the environments in the game world feel. That points to a deeper kind of design decision that isn't so easily reversed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logisitcs Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 They were talking about how they would do the Mass Effect mmo..... -_- Nowhere did they mention TOR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nephallim Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I'm not quite at endgame yet, but I'm close. Level 48 Sith Juggernaut. This is the third or fourth MMO that I've paid for (FFXI, WoW, Everquest 2, LotRO), but the first where I've gotten anywhere close to endgame. Primarily because the others couldn't hold my attention do to lack of story and/or poor storytelling. Thus far, the class stories I've played have mostly lived up to my possibility space. I'm certainly interested in seeing how my story will conclude and how they'll carry on the class stories with additional content. The areas where the game hasn't yet lived up to my possibility space? Little quality of life things. I'd like there to be more useable seats in the game, or at least a /sitchair emote. I'd like pazaak and sabacc minigames. I'd like cosmetic customization of my starship. I'd like the ability to 'gut' any green or blue armor to make it a 'blank' moddable item. I'd like my guild to have a personalized frigate or destroyer. I'd like some sort of multiplayer functionality for the space minigame. Ultimately though, these are all little improvements or additions I'd like to see and not game breaking (or making) in and of themselves. I'll be happy to see some added over the lifespan of the game (pazaak and guild capital ships have been mentioned). Others I don't expect to see. As is, I'm quite happy with the game I'm playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKDeath Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Having reached 50 a few weeks ago on one character and having 7 alts I work on (yes my character select screen is epic) I can safely say TOR has delivered on the possibility that it will soon be a free to play game set in space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quraswren Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 SNIP... I'm on the shy side and I don't like sitting in the fleet hoping for a group. I don't need the cross-server style LFG tool that brings almost unending anonymity, but I want something that will make grouping more fluid. So, that's my take. TLDR version, Bioware made a great leveling MMO, but failed to capture my attention at max level. So, what do you think? If Bioware captured your possibility space, what did they do right? If they missed the mark, what did they do wrong? So what you're saying is that due to a personal flaw of your own. Bioware should create a feature for you, instead of you trying to get over your own setbacks? Even though you can get around it yourself and still be anonymous? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminova Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 I was expecting a Star Wars MMO. Instead we got KotOR 3 with a few multiplayer features and chat. I can't say I'm massively disappointed, I did like KotOR, although I do wish they had been a little more innovative, instead of copying WoW's style of gameplay. I also wish (and this is my biggest disappointment with the game) that they had done something decent with space combat. You're definition of Star Wars must be much different from mine because this is a Star Wars MMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCBull Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) Exactly. This is why a made the "What disappoints you the most thread." http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=329455 This dude said it much better though Edited February 28, 2012 by BCBull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meldwyn Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 So what you're saying is that due to a personal flaw of your own. Bioware should create a feature for you, instead of you trying to get over your own setbacks? Even though you can get around it yourself and still be anonymous? So, shyness is a personal flaw? wow... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smitar Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 "It captured my personal possibility space as largely a single player game" As a modern single player FPS it fails miserably, as a team shooter it fails even harder. Many far, far better SP games out there, starting with BW's own excellent games. As far as "possibility space" goes, "it coulda been a contender". The companions were great, and class quests rocked...for the first few times. If the overall game quality was on par with their other games, if single play didn't consist soley of endlessly rolling alts, if they hadn't buggered up the co-op play elements they duct taped onto it, the possibilities really would have been endless. Great concept, lousy execution. If it survives, if BW is committed to it, if they truly listen to their customers, in a year it'll probably be worth re-visiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synamon Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Only took up my hard drive space for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Rezo Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 Exactly. This is why a made the "What disappoints you the most thread." http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=329455 This dude said it much better though Its a difference between this thread and the another. This is a constructive thread, with opinions (which should be equally taken with the ones within the other thread), but opinions here i find them more... respectable? People here dont say "OMGZ IM LEAVING THIS NEEDS BLABLABLA ILL RESUB AND WILL BE PLAYING BUT I COMPLAIN INSULTING EVERYONE BECAUSE NOBODY KNOWS WHO I AM". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazednconfuzed Posted February 28, 2012 Share Posted February 28, 2012 (edited) You're definition of Star Wars must be much different from mine because this is a Star Wars MMO. When someone mentions Star Wars, what is the first thing you think of? For me, it was always the epic space battles in the movies. The one thing I always wanted to do in the Star Wars universe was fly as part of a squadron. Instead, this stupidly expensive MMO gives us WoW with lightsabers on the ground, and single player Starfox in space. That is why I can't think of it as being particularly Star Wars-y. Sure, it has the name tacked on, and you do get everyone running around with their glowbats (myself included), but Star Wars was a distinct blend of epic space battles and cool ground scenes. Here we have the ground scenes, but are missing the other half of what makes Star Wars Star Wars. Edit: Also, that part of my previous post wasn't just referring to the Star Wars name. This really does feel like a single player game with a few multiplayer options stuck onto it. Perhaps it is just the server I am on is too quiet, but it lacks, I dunno really, a sense of community I guess, that you see in other MMOs. Edited February 28, 2012 by dazednconfuzed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knewt Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 They were talking about how they would do the Mass Effect mmo..... -_- Nowhere did they mention TOR A significant portion of the article was about TOR. The quote I picked out is more design theory than ME or TOR specific. Possibility space seems to be an ideal that Bioware tries to achieve. It is similar is scope to the "concentrated coolness" ideal you hear from Blizzard. I agree with them that a Mass Effect MMO has huge possibility space. Since this is the TOR forums, I chose to apply the possibility space ideal to TOR. Possibility space is an interesting concept and I think you can see how it was applied to TOR. Bioware was very innovative in the story telling (for an MMO), but they seemed to miss on many of the MMO related possibilities from many players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knewt Posted February 28, 2012 Author Share Posted February 28, 2012 So what you're saying is that due to a personal flaw of your own. Bioware should create a feature for you, instead of you trying to get over your own setbacks? Even though you can get around it yourself and still be anonymous? To fulfill my possibility space, yes BW needed to do this. Getting around that is not easy for me. If it was, it would not be so important to me. I understand if this isn't something on the top of your list. We all have different desires and preferred gaming methods. I know Bioware can't program for all of our possibility spaces, but we can still have the discussion and hopefully BW will listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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